"Mutual Assured Destruction"

C

clausbelly Jun 1, 2010

Thoughts prompted by a recent thread on “Forum Community” – “Forum Community” thus seems to me, the most appropriate place on JREF, to initiate envisaged new thread – should the moderators think otherwise, they will presumably “move” accordingly.

People now in middle age or above, have spent much of their lives in the “Cold War” era – in which in theory, the thermonuclear holocaust – wiping out for sure, those of us in “the affluent West, and less-affluent East, north of the Equator” – could happen at any moment. In the abovementioned thread – not specifically about this subject – one poster wrote of this consideration having haunted and dogged him throughout his lifetime up to the early 1990s; another wrote re same, “having been there at the time myself, I could never take that nonsense seriously or even believe that anyone else REALLY bought it either”.

Be interesting to hear “takes” from people who lived in that era.

sermonindex Jun 1, 2010

I was too busy partying back in those days to give it much thought. When I joined the Marines in the late 80's we all hated the Russians... but then our sights were turned toward the Middle East. (Even tho Russia is tied to almost everything going on over there)

I dont think I ever really cared about it. If it was going to happen it would. Nothing I could do about it.

Then I got saved and gained some understanding into the Word of God and came to the conclusion that God will not let that happen... it can't happen and have all the prophecies be fulfilled.

Thats not to say nukes wont be used like they were at the end of WWII. Thats always a possibility, but I dont believe they will ever be used to wipe out a whole hemisphere of the Earth. At least not until maybe the end of the Tribulation... but the church won't be here for that anyway... so what do I care?

(I can just hear all my brethren who believe God will pour out his wrath on the Church through the Tribulation just gnashing their teeth!! lol - just kidding!)

Krispy

M

mguldner Jun 1, 2010

Well Krispy you may be correct on the gnashing teeth part :) I am of neither camp of post or pre or even mid I am a be prepared either way kind of guy, maybe the boy scout in me :) There is mention that 1/3 of the world will be destroyed, a nuke could probably do that I would guess.

God Bless,
Matthew

sermonindex Jun 1, 2010

Pray for pre... prepare for post.

But I am fairly well convinced the church will be gone.

Krispy

sermonindex Jun 1, 2010

Pray for pre... prepare for post.

Haha, I like that. Pan-trib all the way!

K

KingJimmy Jun 1, 2010

Pray for pre and prepare for post? Hmmm... let's pray hell doesn't really exist after all too, and have universalism be correct? Not a very good way of doing theology.

M

murrcolr Jun 1, 2010

Growing up through the cold war age you had one fear Nuclear Holocaust.

Once that has gone new fears have come along....

1. The aids epidemic
2. Famine in Africa
3. Comet coming to destroy the world
4. Rise of Islam
5. Birds flu
6. Tsanami
7. Swine Flu
8. Super Volcanos
9. Global warming
10.Collapse of the banking system
11.2012 prophecy the end of the world

It just seems that there is constant spewing out of things that would cause us to fear.............and from what I notice it's increasing

sermonindex Jun 1, 2010

Pray for pre and prepare for post? Hmmm... let's pray hell doesn't really exist after all too, and have universalism be correct? Not a very good way of doing theology.

KJ... you're comparing apples to oranges. Not a good way of making a point.

Krispy

K

KingJimmy Jun 1, 2010

KJ... you're comparing apples to oranges. Not a good way of making a point.
Krispy

:-)

Mmmmmmm... I disagree. But if my analogy is bad: my point was simply to show that "let's prepare for this while we pray for that" is not a good way to do theology. There is no Biblical basis for this idea. Our doctrines should arise out of a quest to discover and apply the apostles doctrine. Wishy-washy things like this, while having a nice appeal to it, is simply a bad way to do theology.

I'm staunchly post-trib, and while my position is not very emotionally satisfying to me, I in no way ever wish the pre-trib stance to be true. While I can have great fellowship with my pre-trib brethren (whom I believe are greatly misinformed), and can grant them much charity in their position, I in no way hope they are right.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2010

I'm with Krispy man. The comparison was apples to oranges. The Scripture's stance on the reality of hell and the rigidity and exclusiveness of the path to God were quite clear. What's not 100% clear is any stand on the tribulation.

I've heard this subject tackled from all three angles, and though each angle has their strong points, each one also has it's holes (for now). When the Lord told Daniel in Daniel 12:4 to seal the words up until the end time, we should understand that many of the end times prophecy, though we might get a bit of a grasp on it, will not begin to become firmly clear to us until we get closer to the appointed time.

The best theologian and studied man I've met in Greek and Hebrew said something along the lines of, "Each view has it's points, but each view has it's faults. It's arrogance for any one standpoint to claim that they have the in on this one. None of us are going to know until we arrive at or get closer to the appointed time."

Now the wrath of God poured out in the end times will never compare to the wrath that was poured out on Christ, but even so, if Christ himself was able to pray that if possible the cup be taken from Him, I'm not sure why we couldn't pray that pre-trib might be correct. I mean, unless post-trib propagators are a bit masochistic (which I hope isn't the case) I'm not sure why we'd WANT post-trib.

The idea of suffering for Christ and taking a stand for His name even in the face of incredible odds is not disheartening to me, but it's not something that I'm eagerly looking forward to face. We must fully rejoice in every trial set before us, and consider it a privilege to suffer for Christs name, if we must, but to look forward to it, is a bit odd. I mean when the gospel is being preached, I don't say to my self, "Man, this could just be my lucky day, I could get beaten, I could get persecuted, and I could get killed, and I just can't wait!" Now, I fully accept that all of these things are a valid possibility, and if they do happen to me, I will rejoice in them, that I am able to suffer as Christ suffered, but I'd pray that they be converted instead of wrathful. I'm quite willing and ready to take the cross for Christ, but I don't sit there hoping that it's going to happen.

I pray for conviction, but I prepare for crucifixion.

Even in all of this though I would just echo what I believe Spurgeon said. Something to the tune of, "the greatest minds in Christendom have sought to understand the mysteries of the end time. What I desire, is to spend my life trying to get my mind around Christ crucified."

Though whatever point any person takes on the tribulation, I find this no point of division.

K

KingJimmy Jun 2, 2010

What's not 100% clear is any stand on the tribulation.

I disagree :-)

L

Lysa Jun 2, 2010

Wouldn't the better question of "when" is the rapture should be, "what do you believe about Israel and the Church?" Is that a valid question to go along with what you believe on the rapture?

Another thing; many die hard pretribbers and postribbers who argued adamently about their stance are now in the ground awaiting the trumpet sound!!! They still didn't know before they died.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2010

I disagree :-)

And more power to you, man. I agree with you that it's no cause for any breach in fellowship. I personally am not a die hard advocate for any three of the stances. Whenever it happens I'd just better make sure that I'm ready, and I'd better well make sure I'm fulfilling the great commission, completely sold out to Christ when His coming takes place. I'm in full agreement with Lysa, I really don't think WHEN is the most important question that we should be asking. (Not that it isn't a valid question however)

I'd like to hear your stance on post-trib though. From what I've observed of your other posts, your quite a student of the Bible, and I think many on this site, including myself, are quite teachable and receptive to sound Biblical exposition. If you can shed some light on your stance I'd love to read it, as being said, so far I'm not a hard hitter for any of the three (yet).

sermonindex Jun 2, 2010

Here it's thought that if there were a rapture seperate from the other two ressurections mentioned, that would make 3 ressurections, right? Wouldn't that also mean there would be three judgements?

____________________________________________________________

Anyway,
about this thread's first post:

i'm 48.

By no means am a concientious objector, yet after jump and recon. schools, through day after day after day on the sniper ranges -(after Basic and A.I.T.)-, targeting and firing 5,000 rounds at human silouettes from varying distances, i began thinking about just what i was shooting at:
That target is another man made in the image of God; and what if that guy on the other end of the rifle were a believer, forced to serve his country, rather than God's kingdom????

So that's what you call for God and country???
(for country maybe, but leave God out of it...as if killing were the ordained will of God or something, and the Commander in Chief were Moses???)

Also, the library was gone to, to check the stance of the early church = total alignment.

When i went to my C.O. and told him i was a conscientious abstainer, he said, "You mean a concientious objector."

i said, "no, an abstainer. You can go fight any war you want, but i cannot take part in any of it." There was more to it than just that, but that serves to state the change in rationale (on this thread, at least).

Thoughts were of possibly being assigned to a place where i were responsible to push a button because of a phone call on that red one.

From that point on, i got royal treatment, as i was soon to go to U. S. Military Academy Prep. School, already with a letter of commendation from the governor of Tennessee, and then to West Point.

They assigned me to all kinds of other 'duties' that the other 'grunts' were never priveledged to even know existed. (it was play time actually... usually activities with officers) They did it in hopes of changing this mind.

They tried to find a place for me, yet i was the one changing other soldier's minds -(no plan of my own)- through casual conversations everywhere i was priveledged to 'work'.

After 6 weeks, they determined to give me a discharge simply for reasons of influencing morale, though the discharge never stated such and was honorable.

All in all

Nations rise and fall.

Wars will come and wars will go, and nuclear holocaust hardly compares to what Jesus is going to do to this planet. I could care less -(and have since 1983)- what man 'thinks' he is going to do about anything in regards to this place:
II Pet. 3:8,9,10
( ...talk about renovation... so much for the green movement too, hunh?)

My job?
More was thought,
yet this was a good new beginning:
I Pet. 1:24,25, 3:12, 4:7

I always thought that the idea of nuclear obliteration was just an exercise in mental stupidity. Those who would not die from the mushrooming blasts will die from cancer, or at best mutate.

Around when i was in 3rd grade, David Bowie came out with his "Diamond Dogs" fold-open record album. On the inside of the cover was a picture of an envisioned wasteland of a future, and a few words are recalled from the script written near the corner of the graphics:
... fleas the size of rats
sucked on rats
the size of cats,
and ten thousand peoploids
wandered dunes of rust...

There's is a song that comes to mind when reminiscence of those days arise. Sting, on his debut solo album, sang the song "Russians" on his "Dream of the Blue Turtles", during the crest of the Cold War in 1984:
[The line that sticks out in this mind is in all caps below:]

In Europe and America,
There's a growing feeling of hysteria:
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too.

How can I save my little boy
From Oppenheimer's deadly toy.
There is no monopoly of common sense
On either side of the political fence.
We share the same biology,
Regardless of ideology.
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too.

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A WINNABLE WAR
It's a lie that we don't believe anymore.
Mr. Reagan says we will protect you.
I don't subscribe to this point of view.
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us,
Me, and you
Is if the Russians love their children too.

Oh, the good old days of childhood to early adulthood:
precious memories?

Those were simpler days.

Following the lead of God's Spirit, walking closer and closer into the footsteps of Jesus, life has become so much more complicated.

Without Him now, it could be a completely lose-lose situation: greaterer and greaterer challenges.

It seems that God gets a kick out of giving us things to do that require everything beyond our ability or control.

Almost always, it has been seen that plans can be made to do what He says do, and then those plans end up being thrown to the wind. ( His devisings turn out simpler than we ever think, when doing what he says do, then we just wait for Him to show us the next step, and then the next, and the...)

Maybe we just need those things this way, and things way too hard to do ourselves so that we draw from nearer to nearest.

It's seen more and more all the time:
living in The Kingdom is all about eyes wide open, and listening closely in complete and undivided dependence.

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

K

KingJimmy Jun 2, 2010

I'd like to hear your stance on post-trib though. From what I've observed of your other posts, your quite a student of the Bible, and I think many on this site, including myself, are quite teachable and receptive to sound Biblical exposition. If you can shed some light on your stance I'd love to read it, as being said, so far I'm not a hard hitter for any of the three (yet).

I'll be happy to put something together over the next week or so that outlines my position on the issue. I'm actually doing a series on my discipleship website that talks about discovering God's purpose for our lives, and in that, I eventually plan on making a case for a post-trib rapture, simply based on properly understanding what God's purposes for the church happen to be. Sign up for my newsletter, and you'll get a notification of when that bigger essay is done.

However, in the next few days for the purpose of this discussion, I'll post something on the forums briefly about the issue. I'll put it in a seperate thread, so, be looking out for it :-)

R

RobertW Jun 2, 2010

The answer depends mainly on the person. As a child I always watched the news with my dad. He also watched a lot of documentaries on war. The idea of thermonuclear war was a daily high-level concern for me from the mid 70's to around 1988 or 89. This means it affected my entire childhood and teen years.

They say that ignorance is 'bliss'. Well, I was not ignorant of the threat. As a child we would be rushed down into what were called, 'Fallout shelters'. The orange and black sign over the door guided the path to the spot where we would crouch down with our heads between our legs and our hands over our head.

Living out in the country I was aware of many Minute-Man Missile silos. These concrete underground bunkers housed one missile each capable of reaching the Soviet Union with multiple warheads- each of which the yield was adjustable in flight. Every time we passed I just prayed the door would not come open as we passed by.

The EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM used to interrupt the radio and Television sending shockwaves of fear through me as a child. Many kids just kept playing, but I knew what the test was for. I waited to hear the words, "THIS IS ONLY A TEST." If it had not been a test you would have been instructed where to tune or where to go in your area, etc.

Having seen videos such as the ones in Trinity and Beyond I knew that a Nuclear Blast meant total vaporization of those near ground zero. The flame front would then proceed (depending on yield) to burn everything up for the next 50 miles in diameter. The flesh would be consumed before the bones could hit the ground.

Living in MO not too far from Whiteman and other high value targets (nuclear parts plants, airforce bases, minuteman missile silos,etc.) made me wonder every time I saw the sky littered with vapor trails whether or not the missiles had been launched. I knew what the Bible had said along these lines and I took it seriously. Many others things I could say, but there is not enough room in these forums to rightly express what it was like to live under the constant fear of Thermonuclear War. I kept my mind a lot more sober than my friends. For those that have not seen the 80's movie 'War Games' it may give a slight taste of what it was like.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2010

However, in the next few days for the purpose of this discussion, I'll post something on the forums briefly about the issue. I'll put it in a seperate thread, so, be looking out for it :-)

Looking forward to it man, thank you.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2010

Hey KJ... you said your hope is that your pre-trib friends are wrong. Why? Let's say the tribulation starts next week. Who in the right mind would want to go thru that?

That just does not make any sense to me.

David Jeremiah is in the middle of a series right now (that anyone can listen to on his website for free) on the Book of Revelation. All it has done is bolster my confidence that the Tribulation is the time when God pours out His wrath upon the earth.

Are we saved from His wrath, or are we not?

Krispy

sermonindex Jun 2, 2010

Hey KJ... you said your hope is that your pre-trib friends are wrong. Why? Let's say the tribulation starts next week. Who in the right mind would want to go thru that?

That was my train of thought in my post to him as well. I'm looking forward to his presentation though. I think he might be able to clear up our perspectives on what we think his stance is. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

sermonindex Jun 2, 2010

I am too... I'm just curious why anyone would purposely desire to go thru all of that. I pray everyday for the end of days to come soon. But if the church is going to go through it... I'm changing my prayer! I've seen enough hell on this earth.

Krispy