Have the faith of God???

The subject of this thread is the title to Richard Sipley's message at the Revival Conference Victoria this week. Using Mark 11:22 as his text Sipley says "your Bible probably reads 'Have faith in God'...wrong". He continues by saying this should be translated "Have the faith of God". Mr. Sipley has decided to join all the Word of Faith teachers and pretend to be an expert of the Greek language. When I ask any of them: "Do you know the use of the objective genitive case in the NT?" not a one of them has a clue what I'm speaking of. Yet that is what they profess to be translating here. They suggest they are more knowledgable than the translators of the KJV, NASB, RV, RSV, ASV, NIV, ESV, ISV, Syriac, Moffatt, Phillips, Rotherham, Good News, Amplified, Beck, 20th Century, Wuest, Goodspeed, etc etc in translating this case! Does Sipley realize he has joined the ranks of Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Charles Capps, Joyce Meyers, Jesse Duplesis, Creflo Dollar, and all the other "Have whatever you say" teachers? Listening to him, I think he does but won't admit it. But beside heretical translation, how about questions like: "Who does God have Faith in?" After all, faith must have an object. This becomes a rhetorical question if Name it Claim preachers would use their heads. And what is the context? Is it not prayer? Yes it is a lesson on prayer since Jesus follows "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Again, if this is telling us to have the faith of God, who is God praying to? I tell you, if you take away this heretical translation Hagin used early in his ministry and the influence it had on all the wannabe Haginites, the "have what you say" Faith Word prosperity movement would never have become the dangerous thing that it has. And now we have Revival speakers siding with it. All I can say is, the leaders of the conference need to be careful of what they are associating with.

I had the same question because I was curious as to what translation said Of searched all the translations I own and couldn't find of in any of them. Maybe someone could clear that up for me.

I didn't disagree with this sermon just curious as to which translation said Of rather than In.

Using Mark 11:22 as his text Sipley says "your Bible probably reads 'Have faith in God'...wrong". He continues by saying this should be translated "Have the faith of God"

The margin note in my Oxford KJV for Mark 11:22 reads...

"or, Have the faith of God"

As Greg has pointed out, many others not associated with WOF see this is a valid translation as well.

In Christ,

Ron

hi, i am not so sure about what is worse...being stupid or pointing out the stupidity of others while hiding our own stupidity.i have eaten meals with ken hagin and belonged to the same church with jesse and knew a few others and found them to mostly love God ...especially ken hagen ...the worse thing they say is that Jesus died spiritually...God stopped being God for a period and suffered in hell...total stupidity...but for the grace of God go i...pray for them and love them or it will negatively effect you.jimp

Having looked it up, the Greek word for God in this passage is Theou. It's in the genitive case (showing possession) and the word it's modifying is the word for faith. I certainly do not agree with the WOF interpretation that God operated under a law that He had to follow, but "the faith of God" or "God's faith" appears to be a valid translation. I wasn't able, however, to find any exegetical guides that attempt to deal with this particular passage as to this possible translation.

Mark 11:22, Young's Literal Translation put it this way:

"And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;...

Having great training and knowledge of the Greek language does not guarantee that one can properly interpret scripture. We must be students of the word and do so with much prayer and reliance on the Holy Spirit to truly understand and rightly divide. Now obviously this does not mean that we make mince meat of the language, but often more can be discerned through allowing the Holy Spirit to lead you in study than can be discerned through diagramming sentence structure.

I guess that is the long drawn out way to say that I have also seen this thought running through several parts of scripture. If we are to have faith that is effective, whose faith do we think it is going to be? Our own? If I had to rely on my own faith, I would be in trouble for sure.

I really must make a comment about what Jimp said. We are so quick sometimes to denounce this man or that, this teaching or that. I know of some very godly and powerful men in the WOF ranks, and I know of some who are way off. Search the history of mightily used men of God from every denomination or movement. Even the most mightily used of God were often way off in left field in some area of their life. Many were used of the Holy Spirit to do great things, but had one or two really flaky doctrines that leave me scratching my head. What makes you or me think we are any better or different? I have learned to be very slow to pass judgment and to do it very sparingly. Yes, there is a time when one must stand and say, "that is wrong.", but we must be very careful. Remember, the measure with which you mete will be the measure with which it is given back to you.

Please do not conceal from us what you have to say about "the use of the objective genitive case in the NT"

Particularly seeing we have two nouns, both of which are anarthrous [word or group of words which appear without the definite article]. "Anarthrous constructions are most often intended to point out the quality of something"[Zodhiates, grammar notes, #5, #51, and #78].

For those of us who once had little use for grammar: Nouns in Greek have cases that indicate their function in a sentence... the genitive case primarily indicates possession, source or separation and often includes the English word "of" in its translation.

As the speaker said, HIS CHOICE would be 'HAVE GOD FAITH". Since prepositions (like the word "in") are available/easy for the writer to have put into the Greek, AND THEY WERE NOT .....

Please do not conceal from us what you have to say about "the use of the objective genitive case in the NT"

I am sure you have noticed there is probably not a single person on this forum drawn to your list of false teachers. And,of course it can always be good to have reminders. It would be most helpful if you would "take aim" at the Word of God.

My goodness! As I prayerfully wrote a response to skopos_theou, MANY responded, and quite well. I was going to ignore the post as it seemed aimed at man, ... until someone else responded.

I found this precious truth near 20 years ago as I came to understand what the Word of God says about testimony, and witnessed the effect of testimony. This gives the greater reason to guard "our" testimony: it is the testimony of our Lord [2 Timothy 1: 6-8]. It is His testimony [2 Timothy 1: 8] entrusted to us [and here the Greek emphasizes ownership/possession]. This is found so many places in His Word.

Perhaps skopos has experience in the damage done by word-of-faith deceivers like others have come out of new-age or psychology.

SKOPOS: I for one would like to hear anything you have to say about "the use of the objective genitive case in the NT?"

Better post this as 20 more posts may have gone up.

Joan, thanks for your question. I don't mean to conceal anything. Usually when one reads the genitive case it is assumed the possessive sense is meant such as "House of God" = "God's house". But in the objective sense, the genitive will be used more like the dative case of direction such as "love of the brethren" meaning not "the brethren's love" (possessive) but "love toward the brethren" (objective).
The Rev. John Owen, who translated and edited Calvin's Commentary on Romans for the Calvin Translation Society in 1849, wrote: "The words 'by or through the faith of Jesus Christ' mean not the faith which is His, but the faith of which He is the object. They ought to be rendered 'through faith in Jesus Christ'. The genitive case often has this meaning: 'Have faith in (of) God', Mk. 11.22; ‘I live by the faith of the Son of God', should be in our language, 'I live by faith in the Son of God'. This genitive case of the object is an Hebraism, and is of frequent occurrence".
Judging from some of the comments, I obviously came off to strong. Unfortunately I had strong ties to the Faith Prosperity movement for many years and I guess if came out of Jehovahs Witnesses I'd feel as strong commenting on John 1:1 "and the word was a god".
You see, the Faith Movement use of the "faith of God" means the creative power God has of "calling things that are not as though they are"(Rom 4.17). Faith is not objective (toward God) but subjective (faith in your own faith or faith in your words). So in this sense, they teach you can have the faith of God - you can create with your words. But reading the Hebrews 11 faith chapter says Without faith it is impossible to please Him for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him". That is my point - Faith is objective "toward" God and hence we must read Mark 11:22 as an objective genitive case. Any other way would mean if God has faith, His is subjective because it could only be toward Himself.
I cannot reconcile how we can listen to "A call to Anquish" one minute and the next justify an interpretation of scripture that is totally antithesis to that and is the basis for what David Wilkerson calls the gospel of the flesh. I hope this helps you understand my concerns better.

Skopos_theou: Thank you so much for responding and keeping to the Greek.

I thank God He has broken your ties to the Faith Prosperity movement. And there sure is need in the body for sensitive watchmen.

I appreciate your quote from Rev. John Owen. I am sorry Calvin is not here to discuss this. I remain with both nouns being anarthrous.

It probably would not make sense to others but I find this topic a bit like discussing how BOTH Christ in me and I in Christ – when you think of the meaning of it.

My brother is searching now for any references to “the objective genitive case” in grammar books and I do understand there may be an alteration of that into “But in the objective sense, the genitive will be used more like the dative case of direction....”. I could not tell if that was you speaking or you, still quoting John Owen. I can read and understand grammar books, though not my favorite thing. Zodhiates' grammar comment makes me laugh: “Recognizing the significance of the presence or absence of the definite article requires the most intimate knowledge of the Greek language.” I wanted to ask Owen/Calvin/Zodhiates/you, “And the reason the definite article of the “subject noun” was ALSO omitted in Mark is … while two articles are present in Galatians [of the Son } ”

I think you will find posters here quite opposite to those in the word-of-faith who would consider “Have the faith of God” to mean what they call faith is theirs to do with as it pleases them/their flesh and greed, as though the old man got himself a jack-pot.

We can probably agree that it was Jesus Christ's faith in evidence in the garden and on the Cross, and much more in evidence there of course, but I mean to point out that faith was HIS ALONE. I am sure you see there are very deep things here. Things touching the trinity (Why have you forsaken me.), touching man's “role” in salvation, oh too many for written discussion here.

Maybe the best way I can put it is that, as the Truth of the death of self saturates me, the less of me. Although the “most intimate knowledge” I seek is of Him, I would still read something from Greek grammar that touches on Him and our relationship. [Philippians 3: 10].

I am glad you have posted here and I very much understand your concern. My old man did not get himself a jack-pot, he got the ax .... laid to the root. :D

It is very late here...

Joan, I wish it was as simple as "Christ in me" or "I in Christ". But the exact phrase "faith of God" is not found anywhere else in all of scripture except Rom 3:3 that man's unbelief cannot make the "faith of God" of none effect. This actually is a subjective genitive but what all scholars agree on is that "faith" in this passage means the "faithfulness of God". So it is not a matter of case but translation. So fundamentally, anyone who uses Mark 11:22 to mean "have God's kind of faith" is standing on one leg. Not very good hermeneutics now is it.
But take an imperitive that uses an objective genitive that all of us apply everyday if we love the Lord and which we have not one, but dozens of quotes in scripture: "Have the fear of God". If we treated this as a subjective genitive it would mean "have God's kind of fear". I hope we agree that God does not have anyone or anything to fear. So again we are faced with an objective genitive to have fear and trembling directed toward God. And in the same reverence we approach the fear of God, we must approach the term faith of God. Only He is sovereign and only He is to be the object of religious faith. I so appreciate the interest you have to dig into this subject and being one who actually appreciated my post.

Faith unto salvation must come from the salvation giver. Lest any man should boast in any of his own doing, be it faith, works or what ever man thinks he can do to please God and procure his own salvation. I cannot die for myself. Only Christ can die for my salvation. It takes His Faith to bring me to His Cross.

Acts 3:16 And his name (Jesus Christ)through faith in his name (Jesus Christ) hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him (Jesus Christ)hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Pretty plain.

All the other "faith of Christ", have no in or of. It simply says, "Faith Christ".

Expecially: Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

"the faith" Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Crucified with Him, raised in life by His life and Faith and all that God has made Him for our salvation for those that God has given to Him, that He loose none except the "son of perdition", to fulfill prophesied scripture.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith (Son of God) of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Again, "The Faith"; "the faith" Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

He is our all and in all, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", how can this not be that exacting faith that brings salvation and perfect peace, and all that God swore we would enter into His "REST".

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

This "faith" is of Him, through Him, in Him, and all else we need for believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1537. ek
Search for G1537 in KJVSL
ek ek ek or ex ex
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

That pretty much covers the Faith Son of God, It is of Him and none else.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

No one can say this except, by the Holy Spirit that is baptized in us of the Spirit of Christ and God the Father.

God gives us His own witness of His Son, Now this is true faith, which without it is impossible to please God.

1 John 5:9-12 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

In Christ: Phillip

There is two kinds of faith, the faith all men have to believe the sun will rise and the moon will shine, the chair will hold me if I sit on it.

There is only one kind of faith unto salvation; Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This faith has no measure. How can you measure Faith Himself, Jesus Christ? He is all faith and all and in all, those the Father has given Him.

In Christ by His faith that is birthed in me. New life, New nature, a son of God.

Praise God by Holy Faith, we are given new birth, born again son's of God by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ, who is the One that lives in me for I "no longer live", Christ alive and not dead in vain. Christ alive in the believers. Christ life. Let us live it by the prompting of the Holy Spirit who is now our life also forever in us. The Power of the Christ Seed, The Power of the blessed teacher the Holy Spirit, and even The Power of the Father who with Christ make His abode with us.

Is Christ alive in flesh. Yes alive in our flesh which is the spiritual container of an Holy Temple to the Lord.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Is He Come? Not has He come which we all know, but "IS", Which is now.

In Christ: Phillip