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Devotional

Mysticism: A. W. Tozer reconsidered

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

This is a great article that may challenge the Tozer lovers, such as myself...[ I still do...].

But as much as he is Touted for his insights, what about his ideas? Are they biblical? What is behind them? Riggle does a superb job here, and the outcome may surprise you.

A.W. Tozer Reconsidered:TOM RIGGLE; "ASTERISK FILES" web.

"This is the first of several articles on A.W. Tozer, his life and teaching. It is part of a projected larger series of studies on several teachers of the last century or so who, however else they differ, have one thing in common: Devaluing of the Word of God and of the simplicity of the Gospel.

To be sure, Tozer is right no the money in some of his assessments of the 20th (now 21st) century church. But we cannot simply ignore other harmful tenets to be seen in much of Tozer's works.

Someone has written me recently asking why I should feel it necessary to name names and "attack persons"? The answer is quite simply that these very names have become an impervious refuge for some of the most obstinate errors in our church.

We are against error in principal, but are not always aware of it in particular. For instance, I could write generally against some of the errors of AW Tozer - without naming him - and get comments of agreement. But when I pin an author to these errors (see below) and give accurate quotes, I get defensive letters from some ... and enthusiastic Amens from others.

So this is why I "attack" Tozer. I don't hate the man. I love the Truth he himself - albeit unwittingly - attacks. Please consider this article if you are still unconvinced.

Introduction
I am sure I am not the only one here who has been much influenced by Aiden W. Tozer. His devotional writings have been praised by a wide spectrum of appreciative believers within Christendom, myself included. Recently however my praise for this writer has been replaced with a growing awareness of a tendency in his teaching, a major tendency, to turn his readers away from God-appointed means of sanctification.

The Word of God is not only our message of salvation; it is also our method of salvation. Lastly, it is our Man of salvation - He is the Word of God, the God-Man Christ Jesus. In all of these - and in a few other areas, as well - Tozer comes up short, as we shall see.

A.W. Tozer is a revered authority for many, and to attack him almost seems to be an attack on sanctification and holiness itself. But, with him as well as ourselves, we need to always apply the tests of Scripture on the teachers of Scripture. None of us are immune from this necessary cross-examination.

That is what these articles are about. If you find that my lines here spark in you a desire to write back to me, well, great! But if you are all set to defend your man, don't shoot from the hip. Quote from the Book. I am certainly open to correction.

Mystic Sidetracks
Our author's indebtedness to the Catholic mystics of the Middle Ages becomes apparent to anyone who studies Tozer. He often does not bother to divulge precisely where his quotes are from, though whether by design or intentional neglect is hard to ascertain.

Teresa of Avila, Nicholas of Cusa, Meister Eckhardt, the anonymous penman of "The Cloud of Unknowing", and several more, are called as testimonies for his pressing for the need for a closer walk with God.

But who would argue the need for this closer walk? Not us. What we disagree with is the calling in of these dubious authorities when the Scriptures are a much better means - in fact the only sure source - that we need to have Christ formed in us. "To the Word and to the testimony!"

, Isiaiah warns us (Isa. 8:20) "If they speak not according to this word there is no light in them." To this we can add Acts 17:11. Later in this article we will take a closer look at Tozer's favorite authorities, and see if they are to be trusted. Many do not know much about these mystics and monks that Tozer references. If they did, their respect for them - and for anyone who quotes them approvingly - would lessen considerably.

Tozer observes:
"That evangelism which draws friendly parallels between the ways of God and the ways of men is false to the Bible and cruel to the souls of its bearers. The faith of Christ does not parallel the world, it intersects it. In coming to Christ we do not bring our old life up onto a higher plane; we leave it at the cross. The corn of wheat must fall into the ground and die." - A.W. Tozer, Man: The Dwelling Place Of God, 1946, Published 1966

Yes, he has some good points, yet his approving quotes of mystics constitutes this same "friendly parallel between the ways of God ... and men". Nicolas, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila and many others of Tozer's "saints" were active supporters of the anti-Christian papal system, and of the works-related method of salvation.

Are they considered holy just because they speak of sanctification, Christ and heaven? The Devil does as much. Tozer bemoaned the fact that these writers are virtually unknown in modern times. In this we agree - if they were more thoroughly known then Tozer's quotes can be shown for what they really are - passages taken largely out of context from a system that has much more of the Counter-Reformation than the Reformation.

And his quoting of these mystics is more frequent than you might expect. In his slim volume, "Knowledge of the Holy", for instance, there are at least eighteen quotes that are to be found.


An "Open Secret" or a Second Work of Grace?
An additional problem with his views on sanctification is that he downplays doctrine. This is from his "Root of the Righteous":

"Bible Taught or Spirit Taught?
It may shock some readers to suggest that there is a difference between being Bible taught and being Spirit taught. Nevertheless it is so."

Although Tozer's point - especially the very next paragraph - is valid, there is indeed a false dichotomy being set up here. It is not Bible taught or Spirit taught. The Spirit of Christ unlocks, teaches and applies the Word of Christ to us. "They shall all be taught of God" (John 6:45) assumes this very growth in knowledge. The Holy Spirit will not teach of things other than Christ. He is "the way, the truth, and the life".

Tozer goes on:
"It is altogether possible to be instructed in the rudiments of the faith and still have no real understanding of the whole thing. And it is possible to go on to become expert in Bible doctrine and not have spiritual illumination, with the result that a veil remains over the mind, preventing it from apprehending the truth in its spiritual essence."

This is all true, yet, this is not the whole story. Also I believe we should instinctively distrust when someone who is quick to use the word "doctrine" in a limitedly pejorative sense, as Tozer often does throughout his works. This should become obvious as we look further into Tozer's words.

"I am a Bible Christian and if an archangel with a wingspread as broad as a constellation shining like the sun were to come and offer me some new truth, I'd ask him for a reference. If he could not show me where it is found in the Bible, I would bow out and say, I'm awfully sorry, you don't bring any references with you".

But the problem is not with the readily identifiable archangel. It is with those subjective experiences. This is where we must unflinchingly apply the standard of God's Word. It is also with our choice of spiritual teachers. Tozer did not ask for spiritual references when he effusively praised the ecstatic utterances of Julian of Norwich, nor of the "insights" of that "master of the inner life" (his words), Evelyn Underhill, the ecumenicist mystic.

If he would have asked for proper Scriptural backing from them, and found them wanting, he would have saved himself much confusion - and the church much polluting error that is now hard to eradicate.

When I first decided to wrote on Tozer I wondered if I wasn't just being bitter and overly fault-finding. But the more I study him, the more I see him as a clear danger for Christianity. His influence is wide and he is accepted by a broad spectrum of religionists (including, but not restricted to, Christians).

His doctrine and practice are so often overlooked by many other wise astute Bereans who cry "Wolf!" at the same infractions in more recognizable enemies.

Tozer and the Word
Perhaps the best single mark to judge someone's teaching is their pronouncements on the importance of the Word of God. If a writer is strongly committed to holding the Word of God as being central, then we already have a hopeful indication of orthodoxy in that teacher. At the very least we can hold that writer to his own professed adherence to Scripture.

However Tozer is somewhat hard to pin down here because he is not consistent on this central topic. In some places (like in the first quotation below) he seems to hold a high regard for the Bible, yet in others (the very next quote) he all but negates this. So, on the issue of the Word of Life, Tozer speaks against Tozer.

Two passages (emphases added) from his "The Pursuit of God" are particularly helpful in illustrating this; the first from the preface, the second from the very first chapter:

"Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the Living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience they are not the better for having heard the truth.

" The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."

The first statement is the best. It is basically a restatement of what the Word itself asserts about itself. And - if we did not know where Tozer will be going with the arguments - we wouldn't find fault either with the Bible being referred elliptically as "mere words" or that it "is not an end in itself". After all, the church of our time, just as in Tozer's, suffers greatly in many quarters from a lifeless literalism that clutches to the killing letter of mechanical compliances.

While David taught that God "desires truth in the inward parts" (Psalm 51) many followers settle into mere superficial sanctity (that is, false). Tozer deserves high marks for diagnosing the disease. It is his cure that is the cause of concern. That brings us to his second passage, from the first chapter entitled "Following Hard After God". Again, emphasis is mine. I also numbered these five paragraphs for ease of reference. Special attention is drawn to the first and last paragraph:

1. "If we would find God amid all the religious externals we must first determine to find Him, and then proceed in the way of simplicity. Now as always God discovers Himself to "babes" and hides Himself in thick darkness from the wise and the prudent. We must simplify our approach to Him. We must strip down to essentials (and they will be found to be blessedly few). We must put away all effort to impress, and come with the guileless candor of childhood. If we do this, without doubt God will quickly respond.

2. When religion has said its last word, there is little that we need other than God Himself. The evil habit of seeking God-and effectively prevents us from finding God in full revelation. In the "and" lies our great woe. If we omit the "and" we shall soon find God, and in Him we shall find that for which we have all our lives been secretly longing.

3. We need not fear that in seeking God only we may narrow our lives or restrict the motions of our expanding hearts. The opposite is true. We can well afford to make God our All, to concentrate, to sacrifice the many for the One.

4. The author of the quaint old English classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, teaches us how to do this. [Not the Bible? Hmmm] "Lift up thine heart unto God with a meek stirring of love; and mean Himself, and none of His goods. And thereto, look thee loath to think on aught but God Himself. So that nought work in thy wit, nor in thy will, but only God Himself. This is the work of the soul that most pleaseth God."

5. Again, he recommends that in prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology. "For it sufficeth enough, a naked intent direct unto God without any other cause than Himself." Yet underneath all his thinking lay the broad foundation of New Testament truth, for he explains that by "Himself" he means "God that made thee, and bought thee, and that graciously called thee to thy degree." And he is all for simplicity: If we would have religion "lapped and folden in one word, for that thou shouldst have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word GOD or this word LOVE. ""

The entire passage of five paragraphs has been kept intact so that none might accuse me of selectively making my case by cherry-picking quotes out of context. In paragraph 1 we read of the need of simplifying our approach to God, and of "stripping down to essentials".

Now according to Tozer's first quote, in the introduction, the Word of God is an essential, yet now the whole issue is in doubt as we read the last paragraph 5: We must, so teaches our guide (the nameless mystic writer of "Cloud of Unknowing"), strip away from ourselves ... "even of our theology"!

"Well", you might caution me, "he only refers to superfluous or bad theology. Let's not overreact."

I wish that were so. Let's continue. God "is all for simplicity". What kind of simplicity? Why none other than monosyllabic simplicity: The word "God" and the word "Love". Do you see what is going on here?

Contrast with this single-word simplicity the inspired word of God:

For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Acts 20:27

Paul tells the Ephesians that he taught them all of Scripture. Nowhere does he even hint at the hocus-pocus theology of Tozer's.

With Tozer doctrine is being subtly, but with deadly effect, devalued. The theology we are to strip away, or at least to put at arms length when we pray, is the very Word that we need to approach Him as we pray. We need to always be aware of who God is - and that is theology, the knowledge of God in the form of words that He has revealed to us. What does Scripture say?

"I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also", 1 Cor. 14:15.

By the way, Tozer is being true to his mystical roots, especially those mystics who came after the Roman Catholic Counter-reformation, when he so emphasizes God-knowledge as a wholly (not "holy") separate way of approaching Him than through that Word which God Himself gave us for that very purpose. He is being true to them, but false to the Word of God. The same God who said, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life," also said "Thy Word is truth." Consider these passages as well:

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim. 3:15

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim. 3:16

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mark 12:30.

Jesus answered the would-be mystic, the proto-Mariolater who cried out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you!" with "Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it." (Luke 11:27- 28)

Our love and devotion to God is always to be according to the Word of God, as well as corrected and strengthened by the Word of God.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.: Mark 12:30.

In this passage above the Word of God is being set below the Word of men. Who is the writer of "The Cloud of Unknowing"? We don't really know. Neither does it matter. Yet in a chapter about following after God Tozer puts this writer above the Bible! Nowhere in this whole chapter is there a single passage pointing to the Word of God as our means of knowing God, of growing in Him and, yes, of praying to Him.

We grow in grace as we use the means of grace. Our main means of grace, day in and day out, are the Scriptures which can make us wise unto salvation. The Word is our lamp, our bread, our armor, our weapon of righteousness, our mirror and the sword that pierces us (Heb. 4:12) much deeper than we are comfortable with. All of this is missing in Tozer's instruction of how to approach God. "

TOM RIGGLE.......ASTERISKTOM.XANGA.COM

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

I'll have to look into this a little deeper. Interesting to say the least.

We have to keep in mind also that if Jesus were to come down to earth and start teaching as He did the first time... there would be bloggers in cyberspace who would challenge every word He said.

I'm not going to comment on this article until I've had time to digest it.

Krispy

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

"We have to keep in mind also that if Jesus were to come down to earth and start teaching as He did the first time... there would be bloggers in cyberspace who would challenge every word He said."...krispy

They have never stopped.

In light of the recent mystic oriented thread, it is a well known fact that Tozer was a devotee to many of them. All things must be challenged according to the Word, and this article does this, even if Tozer IS a sacred icon, nearly untouchable.


The author makes the point, that if the name was changed, and the exact same argument was made, people agree....but things change when Tozer arises.


I personally have read many of Tozer's works....and many very obscure...there are at least 57 volumes* published...[ many after his death in 1963..]...and I admire the man, and have several of his quotes transcribed in my Bible.


It is worth looking into the roots of his theology...Tom


*www.logos.com
search tozer

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

Sigh. I just find it sad. Now we have moved on to Tozer. Well, I wonder who is next ? Perhaps we should look more closely at the man who used this quote from a pagan......

Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being.

Okay, serious question. Maybe brothertom could describe for us some of his own supernatual encounters? The reason I ask, is because it is so difficult to describe anything supernatural without being attacked and written off? . The reality of genuine encounter with the Living God is always greatly resisted. If one claims that the Word of God is a description of God and that it should lead to an encounter with God, then that freaks people out.

John 5:39-40 ..You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

So what about it Brothertom, can you share some of your own supernatural encounters? I am not asking that because I dont believe that Brothertom has not had them, I know he has, he has described them to me personally........brother Frank

R
rbanks Jun 8, 2010

Brothertom,

I think we need to be very careful here because we all know in part and we are none infallible.

Knowledge has increased and there are things being revealed all the time and people can only know what they have been enlightened about.

Tozer was not perfect and neither is anyone else other than the Lord Jesus Christ. There were many in the Catholic church that found the truth and many came out including Luther who didn’t have it all correct either but He understood salvation through faith.

Tozer wrote more than most and he used many sources. We need to put ourselves in other people’s shoes for a moment. What if we had been back in those dark ages when the Roman Catholic church was in control but we also had a desire to truly know God how would we be perceived today by Christians centuries later.

I just recently heard of a muslim woman who was praying with all her heart telling God that she really wanted to know Him personally and during that pray she had a vision of Jesus and was converted and became an outcast to her family. But she knows God now.

Let’s be careful brother that all I’m saying. I myself am not really interested in where people came from but I am truly interested in where they are going in what they believe now.

Blessings to you!


S
sojourner7 Jun 8, 2010

Tozer has challenged my finite and limited
conception of GOD on so many levels. GOD
is so far beyond our understanding; that
without the help of revelation(from the
Spirit) we cannot begin to imagine His
awe-ful majesty, His wonder!!

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

Hi Guys,
I take back my questions of Brothertom. I just feel strongly led not to be involved in this particualr thread. God bless you all. And may we be found near to the heart of God...............brother Frank

M
murrcolr Jun 8, 2010

Appolus wrote " John 5:39-40 ..You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

What Jesus is saying hear is that you read the scripture thinking this will give you eternal life but the scripture testifies of Christ and it is him that we must come to to have eternal life.

Appolus wrote "So what about it Brothertom, can you share some of your own supernatural encounters?"

About a 1-1/2 years ago a man came to Scotland from Fresh Fire ministries saying that he had a vision of revival in Scotland, I went along to hear what the man has got to say.

At the start of the meeting they had a time for testimony, I was taken a back how the people of the church sharing how they were seeing angles, I mean every single person that shared testified of seeing angelic visions no one word of Jesus.

So the man get ups and starts to preach in a nut shell his message was to encourage people to seek out the "supernatural" and to start asking to see it and sharing about his "Supernatural Experiences" yes his experiences were all about angelic vistations and how they started.........

About half way through the preaching I became aware of something, with this I started to pray in the spirit under my breath so no one could hear. A few moments later the preacher becomes dumb-founded he is trying to speak but he can't, I can see him trying to speak but he can't, with this the people in the "church" building start laughing at the sight.......

Then all of a sudeen he is free to talk, "my Angel is standing at the back of the room" he says, he wants me to you tell you "that you must must seeking after angels"

Can you imagine!!!!!!!

End of the meeting for me..........

One of the words he used while preaching was what he called "centering prayer" this words stuck in my head so I had to go and research what it was....

Basically this type of prayer(mantra) is what the mystics use to find the God that they say is within us all.

People there is a Tsunami of Mysticism sweeping the church, many people are departing the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils but we have been warned in scripture that there must be a great falling away and the Anti Christ revealed before Jesus can return............

The mysticism that's being promoted today in church starts with a mist and ends in Schism....

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

Brothertom,

I think we need to be very careful here because we all know in part and we are none infallible....rbanks


This is the quote on SI's scripture and doctrine category; "Scriptures and Doctrine",

"Test everything, Hold on to the good." - 1 Thess 5:21.

"Here you will find discussions on all different scriptures and theological positions. Please discuss with an spirit of edification not dissention or strife."

Billy Graham, John Calvin, John Wesley...and many others that were of an excellent spirit have been tested here, as should anyone that speaks. As I have stated; Tozer has greatly blessed me.

" I think we need to be very careful here because we all know in part and we are none infallible"....rbanks

and... BECAUSE we are all infallible..let us not fear to examine how much of Tozer's insight was biblical, experience, and pure revelation. There is yet mixture in us all, and perhaps we could purify our own faith in the process. The mans insights are written in my bible.

Thank-you for your humility....Tom


J
JB1968 Jun 8, 2010

Dear Brother Tom,
I think we need to be careful to not condemn others because we do not agree totally with them theologically. In another thread this same thing happened.
Also it seems that you are twisting Tozer's words to mean what you say they mean just because you do not agree with them. Tozer upheld the authority of the Bible, but also believed that you can't tell God what to do. Heb. 4:12-13 says that we stand before God as naked. We cannot hide any thing from Him, even our idea of what we think the Bible teaches.
God's Word is the final authority regardless of anything else. It is infallible, inerrant and wholly inspired of God, but we must also beware of bibliolatry-worship of the Bible.
Also, there is a mystical (if I may say that word) aspect to salvation and the Christian life. Being born again,etc., is more than a change of record in heaven. It is also a change of heart and nature. It is a relationship with God. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." II Peter 1:4.
If we stick with the Word of God we can't go wrong.

L
learn Jun 8, 2010

JLB1968 and Appolus,

I think BrotherTom started this thread because of the earlier thread where some of us started quoting Wesley etc to support our views that Mdm Guyon is a real Christian and that most of her teachings are ok. It is not because he is finding another person to condemn. He is trying to let us know that though true heavyweight Christians such as Wesley, Tozer (that we including himself like and respect) may support them, it doesn't mean that they are correct in this area or other area. That we should test everything and be willing enough to say that yes Tozer, Wesley etc may be wrong in supporting this area/person. That we do not 'follow/trust blindly just because a true Christian has this opinion' (and more importantly this relates to anything, not just M. Guyon.). He's not trying to condemn Tozer, Wesley etc. Its no fun doing this type of thing because they are highly esteemed here and will meet heavy opposition. The heaviest opposition will usually be what some others have stated here and I myself have used elsewhere before ie : be careful not to condemn just because we don't agree 100% with their views and its unlikely that these saints or any real Christians will be right all the time.


At least this is how I see it from his first post in this thread. Just thought I clarify.

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

Thanks Brother Tom,

People are appalled with me when i stand up and shred, any of numerous various teachings that have no foundation in Christ.

There is no fear of, nor admiration of Tozer or anybody for that matter that preaches regeneration and relationship with our Father.

i won't follow any man whole hog.

i pray.

i may come against teachings, by what God has revealed and has been lived out, but just because any person says one thing right does not mean that they can whip around a tiger by the tail.

Most have trouble seperating the person from the teaching.

The spirit of the age is about entitlement, and sad to say, it is prevalent in the church.

Speak boldly, yet many misinterpret speaking the truth in love.

If we do not speak out, we hold the truth in unrighteousness. This is both a sin and propagating lies by complicity. Can anyone call this love?

Promote any man over Jesus Christ, the Word of God which lives and abides forever, one becomes implicitly part of the sin.

Whether implicit or complicit, sin is sin.

whether preaching or teaching, those who speak their own opinions contrary to God shall recieve the greater judgement. If you don't warn them, the blood is on your hands too.

So, what is speaking the truth in love?

Look to Lev. 19:15, 16, 17, 18

Is this what we see today?

CHANGE!

These are perilous times where many call evil good and good evil, even in the church.

Not naming any names...

...at one church i heard a dear brother speaking about the gift of tongues as evil. I stood until he recognized me, then quoted I Cor. 14:38, 39. Dead silence fell, and you could have heard a pin drop for about 5 minutes. Somebody said, "Let's pray. We need to." So we did and after a final song, the service ended quickly.

This is speaking the truth in love.

DO IT!

Stand up for what is right for Christ's Body or fall with it.

Move beyond the Reformation into the full and complete gospel of Jesus Christ working through His Spirit.

Lose your binary reduction of God into plattitudes of Dispensational Dualistic Deism.

Be what God made you.

Be a human, and let God be God.
Do what he says do.

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

K
Koheleth Jun 8, 2010

Noting that Paul (and Peter, don't forget) quoted from non-Christian authors to establish a spiritual point was a good place to start. Tozer has fueled the fire, refined the faith, deepened the devotion, inspired the holiness, and stretched the soul of countless believers across the world in our generation and his. I do not idolize or hold the man in improper esteem, but we must acknowledge the Lord has esteemed to use him. Why? Because of the general testimony and fruit of his life and ministry, which is Christ. That is enough for me. It is not side issues--all points to God and his Word. Tozer is not producing cults or lukewarm Christians, he is drawing people to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

Doctrinal doctors can spin about the points of those he rubs shoulders with. But what is their devotional life and holiness? After all, if they want to take Tozer down, give me something better in his place that points me to Christ more.

I suspect the intent of the article was good, but in this land of overzealous scrutinization, I don't believe it will really do good for anyone. So we find out something never mentioned in the Scriptures, that Paul quoted a Greek philosopher. So we find out that Tozer quoted from the Cloud of Unknowing. And for what purpose did they each quote? It is the same, to point us to and leave us with Christ.

I have heard good messages developed from the words of unbelievers, and Satan quotes the Scriptures to his own purposes, so these types of analyses are doomed to prove nothing.

K
Koheleth Jun 8, 2010

Quotes from rbanks.

We need to put ourselves in other people’s shoes for a moment. What if we had been back in those dark ages when the Roman Catholic church was in control but we also had a desire to truly know God how would we be perceived today by Christians centuries later.

Would God condemn us if the Roman Catholic church were all we knew and were seeking Him? Don't think that growing in the knowledge of God would necessarily lead you out, just because it would today! The possibilities were different. Although we can have every man for himself today, that does not mean it was so easy or apparent then. Many people sought God in the context they could--and God received them!

I myself am not really interested in where people came from but I am truly interested in where they are going in what they believe now.

Great thoughts on the topic, Robert. Thanks for sharing.

sermonindex Jun 8, 2010

The main issue of contention should remain at the forefront;

Jesus Christ:

He came in the flesh, he was always living in sacrafice to our Father. In dying in His flesh He lives in flesh and bone.

If the emphasis is not in somehow someway towards walking in Him through what he is ever doing, the message is not leading towards Him and should be shot down.

That's all: Objectify faith in the only one who is Faithful and a True Witness, Jesus Christ.

Sure Paul quoted the greek poet, but where was he going through the quote? (it's not neccessarily about the reference sourced so much as the Source referenced to.)

Glory in any man and we are not glorifying God.

Here there is nothing against Tozer or anybody else.

The question is, what is being glorified and pointed to?

CIAO!
g

W
wayneman Jun 9, 2010

Brothertom

I almost always agree with you, but I don't think much of this article. It displays the sort of intellectual laziness that is characteristic of professional heresy-hunters. The author impugns Dr. Tozer on account of his affinity for medieval mystics, but he doesn't explain what exactly is wrong with medieval mysticism. He just throws the word "Catholic" around like an expletive.

sermonindex Jun 9, 2010

Mysticism implies something that cannot be clearly defined, almost aetheric. Here, mystical christianity is considered almost an oxymoron, like non-dairy creamer.

Of deep involved relationships you continue in, how many of them are mystical?


CIAO!
g

M
ManofGod0000 Jun 9, 2010

I dont think any of us are in a position to talk or say such things about brother Tozer, just read his writings, listen to his heart, it was madly in love with the Trinity, Heloved the Lord Jesus

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learn Jun 9, 2010

Respect should be given to people like Tozer, but it doesn't mean that we are refrained from disagreeing with his views. For me, if it was a message board discussing Tozer, I would be more disinclined to participate against Tozer's views, but if I were guiding/talking to another young/less discerning Christian who is infatuated with him, while I have no problems with him reading Tozer's works etc, I would certainly caution that person, that Tozer may not have it 100% right and certain people that he supported should best be avoided as it may lead us astray. Not doing so when I believe that his support of certain people may not be right, I would have sin.

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JB1968 Jun 9, 2010

If I took a quote from George Bush to illustrate a point, would it mean that I agreed with all of his policies? Definitely not.
Tozer was dead right in alot of his conclusions and many people do not like him because of it. If more people would listen to what he said, the church would not be as dead and worldly as she is.
If someone from a different denomination speaks the Truth does that mean they are wrong?
I don't know of too many who have every jot and title correct. I probably even have some faulty views, but I am open to light from God because I want to "walk in the light". I John 1:7 and Phil. 4:8

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