Help, need feedback; Dead fundametalism

I would like to discuss the subject of Fundamentalism or maybe dead fundamentalism might be more appropriate.

I encountered Christ and the holy Ghost whilst living in darkness and a slave to my sin, i lived a dark life. But mercy shone in my life and i turned from my sin to follow the way of Jesus. It hasn't been easy and i made some mistakes, but non the less i long today more for Christ than in those precious first encounters ten years ago.

I joined various missionary groups, and encountered all kinds of different ministry's. After listening to raven-hill and washer i can see clearly as to what man made religion does and is... But i struggle so much with this issue as so many people cannot hear Raven hill and washer saying that they are judgmental and critical. I have cried tears listening to them as it blesses my heart.. but mostly i have a burning fire afterward and can be critical of church people, i get so desperate to follow Christ and do his work in this generation, but every time i step out i hear the sound of dead fundamentalism..I hear stories of fundamentalists who are mean, harsh and unloving, totally contrary to scripture. I wonder if these men(whom i love) are making disciples or angry follows who are critical of everyone.

What do some think about this issue. I do pray and seek the lord and will carry on so..

its a long topic, its seems i agree with their teachings, like Paul washer. But eversince i listened i wondered if i was even saved!! becasue i had been in movements which i now dont agree with.

When i first encountered God i belived it was a powerful transformation, i lived each day praising him with grace for all. But after listening to washer, i struggle now wondering if i ever met God, becasue i have only anguish now, whilst before i had great joy!!!

I like what A.W. Tozer said about dead Fundamentalism in his book, Keys To The Deeper Life:

A generation ago, as a reaction from Higher Criticism and its offspring, Modernism, there arose in Protestantism a powerful movement in defense of the historic Christian faith. This, for obvious reasons, came to be known as Fundamentalism. It was a more or less spontaneous movement without much organization, but its purpose wherever it appeared was the same: to stay "the rising tide of negation" in Christian theology and to restate and defend the basic doctrines of New Testament Christianity. This much is history.
What is generally overlooked is that Fundamentalism, as it spread throughout the various denominations and nondenominational groups, fell victim to its own virtues. The Word died in the hands of its friends. Verbal inspiration, for instance (a doctrine which I have always held and do now hold), soon became afflicted with rigor mortis. The voice of the prophet was silenced and the scribe captured the minds of the faithful. In large areas the religious imagination withered. An unofficial hierarchy decided what Christians were to believe. Not the Scriptures, but what the scribe thought the Scriptures meant became the Christian creed. Christian colleges, seminaries, Bible institutes, Bible confer¬ences, popular Bible expositors all joined to promote the cult of textualism. The system of extreme dispensationalism which was devised, relieved the Christian of repentance, obedience and cross-carrying in any other than the most formal sense. Whole sections of the New Testament were taken from the church and disposed of after a rigid system of "dividing the Word of truth."
All this resulted in a religious mentality inimical to the true faith of Christ. A kind of cold mist settled over Fundamentalism. Below, the terrain was familiar. This was New Testament Christianity, to be sure. The basic doctrines of the Bible were there, but the climate was just not favorable to the sweet fruits of the Spirit.
The whole mood was different from that of the Early Church and of the great souls who suffered and sang and worshiped in the centuries past. The doctrines were sound but something vital was missing. The tree of correct doctrine was never allowed to blossom. The voice of the turtle [dove] was rarely heard in the land; instead, the parrot sat on his artificial perch and dutifully repeated what he had been taught and the whole emotional tone was somber and dull. Faith, a mighty, vitalizing doctrine in the mouths of the apostles, became in the mouth of the scribe another thing altogether and power went from it. As the letter triumphed, the Spirit withdrew and textualism ruled supreme. It was the time of the believer's Babylonian captivity.
In the interest of accuracy it should be said that this was a general condition only. Certainly there were some even in those low times whose longing hearts were better theologians than their teachers were. These pressed on to a fullness and power unknown to the rest. But they were not many and the odds were too great; they could not dispel the mist that hung over the land.
The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is far more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions.
It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul's epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental.

thanks good word

fundamentalist now-a days seem harsh and angry, lacking patience.is this me being judgmental or is this true?

Ollie,

Remember that Jesus told us that we will know them by their fruits. So as Christians, we are called to be "fruit inspectors." What we are not is "root inspectors." Since we cannot know a man's spirit (according to Paul), we cannot judge his spirit (ie, his motives). Therefore, to say, so-and-so makes this or that error is not judgmental.

You should also consider how much time you spend thinking about other's errors and how you use the knowledge of their errors (to bolster your pride, or to pray for them, etc.) (Not accusing you of anything, but for your own thought/prayer life.)

If you are currently involved in a fundamentalist church you should pray about what God wants you to do. Sometimes we are called to stand; to pray and fight. At other times, God may want you to seek spiritual food elsewhere.

Do you have a wife (and children) that attend with you?

Matthew

Matthew 2323. Brother, there is soooo much wisdom in your statement:

'So as Christians, we are called to be "fruit inspectors." What we are not is "root inspectors."'

Amen!

Remember that Jesus told us that we will know them by their fruits. So as Christians, we are called to be "fruit inspectors." What we are not is "root inspectors."

I find this a tad bit confusing. One cannot separate the fruit from the root - they are all connected. Without one the other cannot exist. What effects the root will be evident in the fruit. Happens in plants all the time. This is so basic that to argue against it is foolishness. (We grow tomatoes hydroponically for a living.)

Jesus teaches us in Luke 6:45 " A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

Brother, if you experience distress because of Washer or Ravenhill's preaching, may I suggest you get on your knees before God Almighty and talk to Him about it.

Life in the Spirit involves growth, the weeding out of the besetting sin that hinders one in his walk with the LORD. Sometimes these are like the pulling of teeth without anesthesia. It is unnerving, unsettling. When this happens you just go to the LORD and talk to Him. He will show you. Been there, done that...

Guilt is not a bad thing. It is to the human soul what pain is to the body. Physical pain cause us to stop doing whatever is causing the pain. So is guilt to the soul/spirit. STOP, LOOK and LISTEN! there may be a train coming down the track that will run over you unless you move! So move!

God bless....

ginnyrose

"the reason why the church is in this state", and "if the church would do this or that or the other".

If I recall, Washer in one of his sermons said the church of Jesus Christ is pure, she is holy. One should not confuse the apostate 'church' with the bride of Christ. (Could someone post the link to this sermon?)

I loved that, don't you?

ginnyrose

PS: BYW, Washer is a Baptist and I am not but still appreciate his ministry. How can you understand that?

If fruit cannot be separated from the root, then we should not be found judging the fruit either; if there be ANY doubt that Christ be the root – then we dare not be caught criticizing or judging any fruit, lest we be found even to fight against God.

God bless you,

It seems judging others is such a huge controversy in Christians, it's a constant battle I find even in my own family. I know that some of my family members are unsaved because of the fruit in their lives, I asked some of the Christians in my family if they would join me in prayer and fasting for the unsaved members and what I got from them was an article from a Francis Frangipane to fast from judging. I read the article and 90% of it was biblically correct but there was a part that I did not agree with. He said" If you know you are a sinner and there are areas wrong in your life, yet you strive to be merciful, God promises He will respond to you as you have responded to others". Not one mention of the cross of Christ and repentance. His comment seems more like buddism to me, all about self.

I look at Jesus as my example and if Jesus was pointing to the sinners sin isn't that judging? If we preach the gospel to the unsaved isn't that judging? Come on now if you are pointing your finger at me for righteous judgment then aren't you judging me? I really think us Christians should be reading our bibles more and prayerfully asking God for wisdom and how to have righteous judgment. Isn't the work of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and righteousness and judgment? This is how I pray for the unsaved and Christ said you will know them by their fruits.

If you read Matt.7:1 Jesus is talking about hypocritical judgment, if you read to verse 6 you will see if we do not have that gross sin in our own life then we can clearly judge the brother/sister about that sin to keep the church pure. Matt.23 Jesus judges and condemns the scribes and Pharisees. We need preachers like Paul W. and Ravenhill, church discipline is lost today but we can judge ourselves and work out our Salvation with fear and trembling.

Continue to pray and fast for the unsaved and don't compromise the word of God, keep the full armor on there will be opposition even in the church.

Hey thanks for your post. I have a wife, im a young married, for two years.

I have attended a very liberal church you could say for a few years, i felt as though it was very business orientated, and it seemed so many people just didnt have that weight of knowing christ, i struggled with wether or not i was being judgmental, i prayed and wept for almost two years. Certain leaders who i was very respectful to, but in my discernment(i hope biblical) i sensed that they were very worldly and didn't really walk in light of Christs Gospel. I beleived that there religion was dead, but my wife highly praises the people as Godly when I truly dont see it.

So as i was discouraged, i met a guy who came in amongst the church who was very extreme, i believe all that he believes, and he says the church is not christian. At times he seems so very harsh and unloving, but he says that its all apostate.

i wonder where to draw the line as i cant walk in agreement with the church but my wife is highly involved, its agonising to sit and listen at times

Ollie,

How has your wife responded when you share your concerns?

Others,

I was not implying that fruits can be separated from the roots. My thoughts were centered on Paul's words:

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. (I Corinthians 2:11)

On some level the connection between the fruit and the root is pretty obvious but there are other times when we can only speculate as to what a person's motives may be. Where it gets dangerous is when we make a correct discernment about someone's motives a time or two and then we begin to think that all of our speculations on such subjects are correct (or imparted by the Holy Spirit).

A plan in the heart of a man is like deep water, But a man of understanding draws it out. (Proverbs 20:5)

People are very complex and much time and care must be taken to understand a human soul.

I hope this helps clarify my original thought.

Yours in Him,
Matthew