GOD IS

by dougm55 on 2010/6/26 8:01:09

GOD KNEW ADAM WAS GOING TO SIN BEFORE TIME BEGAN ? JUST WONDER N Thanks.

Yes, God knew and made man with the capacity to choose for himself; yet, before this, God had already established His 'Everlasting Covenant' to be made manifest on earth in the fulness of time.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the world even existed. Everything that exists is for the expressed purpose of the complete fulfilling this Covenant, where, "my Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until i make your enemies a footstool."

It's deeper and more meaningful than we shall ever comprehend in this life.

i'm just overjoyed that Jesus is my brother and God is my Father: that He counted me worth the trouble to live and die for. Just think, God made it possible for whosoever will, to enter into a living everlasting relationship with the Eternal Father and His Immortal Son; but, not only this. He has redeemed all things back as His own posession in Jesus sacrificially yeilding up His life blood.

The book of Hebrews is a primer into this revelation.

Growing in God's grace, and His knowledge according to this grace, gives greater and greater significance to what the Lord's Prayer is really all about: "...thy will be done on earth, as it is (already)..."

Agapeo,
g
Acts 20:32

1. GOD DID NOT FOREKNOW ADAM'S FALL
2. GOD LEARNS
3. WHY DID GOD CREATE A PARTIALLY UNPREDICTABLE UNIVERSE?
4. THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
5. A RIGHT UNDERSTANDING NECESSARY FOR PERSEVERANCE
6. PETER'S DENIAL OF JESUS

GOD DID NOT FOREKNOW ADAM'S FALL
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God expected Adam to obey him. God did not know that Adam would disobey him. That is why God asked Adam if he had disobeyed when he found Adam hiding his nakedness.

Gen 3:11 ..Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

GOD LEARNS
---
The Bible shows God getting information in totally ordinary ways: asking questions (where are you, who told you you were naked, did you eat it, etc), traveling places to see what is happening (sodom and gomorah), and testing people to see if they are trustworthy:

Deu 8:2 ..the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, TO KNOW what was in thine heart, WHETHER thou wouldest keep his commandments, OR NO.

Deu 13:3 ..the LORD your God proveth you, TO KNOW whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

2Chr 32:31 ..God left him, to try him, THAT HE MIGHT KNOW all that was in his heart.

Ge 22:12 ..NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

WHY DID GOD CREATE A PARTIALLY UNPREDICTABLE UNIVERSE?
---
God values genuine relationship with his creation more than a predictable universe. That is why he created us intelligent, rational, and free - so we could be "holy and blameless before him in love" (Eph 1:4). If God was interested in a completely predictable universe then he could have made one but there couldn't be any genuine love in it that way.

Here's one of my favorite examples of God experiencing his new creation:

Ge 2:19 ..out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam TO SEE what he would call them.

THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
---
Some people brought up the verse in revelation that calls Jesus the lamb slain from (not necessarily before) the foundation of the world. It doesn't make sense to interpret that to mean that God foreknew anyone would disobey him. 1) That is contrary to what we can understand about God from creation 2) it is contrary to what the Bible tells us about God 3) From the foundation of the world could simply mean the time of the Garden of Eden. Alternatively, 4) I think it could just mean that Jesus was willing to offer himself for sin IF it happened. I'm sure God would have been more than happy if people had not sinned.

A RIGHT UNDERSTANDING NECESSARY FOR PERSEVERANCE
---
In order to progress in sanctification and diligently seeking after God we must believe that we are able to earn God's trust by our faithfulness just like with any father who is not completely wicked. If God might always foreknow future sins we might commit ten years from now then we can't believe that he could genuinely trust us. Even when we haven't earned his trust God still gives grace and hopes for the best that he can wisely hope for. As Logic said "love hopes all things". If we cannot lay hold of these things by faith then the devil will have a foothold to present thoughts of discouragement in times of trial. How can we forget what is behind and look forward, as Paul said, if looking forward might mean looking to future sins that God knows about and we don't.

PETER'S DENIAL OF JESUS
---
One special exception to this is the satanic trial that God allowed Peter to go through. Even then Jesus warned and urged Peter that he must pray so he wouldn't fall into the special temptations he was about to experience. God allowed the devil to tempt Peter three times before the morning came, just as he had allowed the devil to tempt Job. Even though Peter was over-reliant on himself and his own imagined courage, Jesus still hoped that Peter would overcome and therefore urged him to pray for help.

TIMELESSNESS -VS- THE LIVING GOD

The Biblical view of God's ability to gain new knowledge is often objected to with statements like the following,

OBJECTION ONE: "God is not constrained to our time or time in itself." - mguldner

OBJECTION TWO: "God is timeless and as the creator of time knows the future because He is All Knowing in all things and times because He is the creator of all things." - mguldner

ANSWER ONE: Time is not a constraint. Time is a freedom. Without time there is no possibility of change. With God all things are possible therefore time is an aspect or result of God.

ANSWER TWO: God is not timeless because the existence of God makes change possible. If change is possible there must be time. Therefore time is an eternal aspect or result of God and not a created thing.

There are not different times like in science fiction movies. There is only reality, right now, the present. The past is past, it only exists in our memories. The future does not exist yet. Only the ever-changing ever-enduring present exists as a direct result of God. "In him we live and move and have our being" - we do not hop from one "time" into another, that is just a science fiction plot device.

by Logic on 2010/6/27 14:32:00

How could God know Adam's choice if we create our own choices? If Adam created his own choice to sin, then his choice to sin was not existent to know before he chose to sin.
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You are the only one saying man CREATES their own choice.
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Just as God cannot know about that pink unicorn in your pocket because it does not exist, so God cannot empirically know anything which is not existent.
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Heb. 4:12
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However, If Adam did not create his own choice; God who truly did create Adam's choice is culpable.
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God created the power to chose and Adam is cupable for making the choice. (God did not make him do what he did.)
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mguldner said, "...He (God) even made man came up with a way to redeem us through His Son Christ Jesus."
* God came up with a way to redeem us as a percausion to the posability of sin, not because He empirically knew we would.
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To say what you said is the same as saying God does not know every possible ramification and choice man is capable of imagining and/or doing.
Gen. 6:5, I Sam. 16:7
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The way that God knows what will happen is because He as COMPLETE, UNLIMITED knowledge of what currently is, and as God is fully experiencing & COMPLETELY observing this present moment PERFECTLY at ALL angles and EVERY perspective in ALL creation, AND with God’s PERFECT awareness of EVERYTHING going on and while He is PERFECTLY perceiving ALL things which are to be experienced; God is FULLY able to have PERFECT extrapolation from PERFECT recall of all history and by PERFECT wisdom (Common sense; good judgment; ability to use the knowledge one has) and having PERFECT understanding (comprehension, discernment, the power of abstract thought, which relates to imagination), is Fully able to PERFECTLY calculate that which will EXACTLY come about at any given time in the future.

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Logic, you fail to account for one thing:

Isaiah 46:

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

God knows exactly what he created: reasons, imagines, and will do. Biblical prophecy bears this out, not only in the above declaration, but in God predicting with 100% accuracy what will and will not happen.

Lk. 21:33

Mt. 5:18

Ps. 111:7

Ezek. 12:25

Our faith cannot rest nor stand in the wisdom of men. Yet, dependence in the power of God all is assured. Jesus Christ is the power of God, in whom dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and being part of His body, we have this wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ -the beginning and end of all things- as the fulness of His annointing bears forth throughout our being from within.

Glory to El Elyon!

Shabba,
g
Heb. 3:12, 13, 14

edited: grammatical inconsistencies

Naatmi,

Either you are still steeped in Islaamic thought or you are new to the One True Faith found only in Jesus Christ who lives and abides forever.

Which one?

Yaweh Akbar,
g

Hello Phanetheus,

You have presented a false dichotomy in your question.

Can you provide a link to an example of Islamic theology that agrees with the things I said in my posts? I am not familiar with Islamic thought.

Thank you.

Let's not go there then. Mayhaps you do not know the meaning of "naat", so we will leave that right where it is.

Instead, let's cover what you state and see if we can come to some sort of agreement?

Read the last post on page one and consider what you claim in relation to the scriptures provided there, and we can move on from there.

Agape,
g
Acts 20:32

GOD LEARNS --- The Bible shows God getting information in totally ordinary ways: asking questions (where are you, who told you you were naked, did you eat it, etc), traveling places to see what is happening (sodom and gomorah), and testing people to see if they are trustworthy:

Wow..... Just, wow.....

Maybe I should just clarify. How is it possible for a God who knows all things to learn? The Bible is confused maybe?

1 John 3:20

And also the argument that God asks questions because He actually is unaware of the answer is not only absurd, it flies in the face of what the Bible says.

John 18:4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" (NASB)

I could go to other examples as well, but do we need them?

2 Tim. 1:9

1 Pet. 1:2, 19-20

Tit. 1:2

I Cor. 2:7

Eph. 1:4, 5

TIMELESSNESS -VS- THE LIVING GOD

The Biblical view of God's ability to gain new knowledge is often objected to with statements like the following,

OBJECTION ONE: "God is not constrained to our time or time in itself." - mguldner

OBJECTION TWO: "God is timeless and as the creator of time knows the future because He is All Knowing in all things and times because He is the creator of all things." - mguldner

ANSWER ONE: Time is not a constraint. Time is a freedom. Without time there is no possibility of change. With God all things are possible therefore time is an aspect or result of God.

ANSWER TWO: God is not timeless because the existence of God makes change possible. If change is possible there must be time. Therefore time is an eternal aspect or result of God and not a created thing.

There are not different times like in science fiction movies. There is only reality, right now, the present. The past is past, it only exists in our memories. The future does not exist yet. Only the ever-changing ever-enduring present exists as a direct result of God. "In him we live and move and have our being" - we do not hop from one "time" into another, that is just a science fiction plot device.
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Time and change are neccesary for man.

God does not change. Without any other scipture besides His declaration of this one thing, we can conclude that he is timeless, ageless, immortal, and eternal.

He is not confined to learn as a man does.

Ultimately, in Jesus coming to earth, we see God stepping down to our level to bring us up towards His through relationship into His bruised, broken and crushed body, His splattered blood purchasing for us the way back to Him.

Agape,
gregg
Acts 20:32

Phanetheus,

I didn't see anything in the post you asked me to look at that is in disagreement with my posts. Maybe I am missing something.

OBJECTION THREE: "God does not change. Without any other scripture besides His declaration of this one thing, we can conclude that he is timeless, ageless..." - Phanetheus

OBJECTION FOUR: "[God] is not confined to learn as a man does." - Phanetheus

ANSWER THREE: We know that God never changes morally. God's character never changes. God is always good. This does not mean that God never changes in the sense of performing actions. Jesus' conception was divine change: "the word was made flesh". Jesus' death and resurrection were divine change: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"

God is sequential. God is called the Ancient of Days. God has a past, present and future: "which is, and which was, and which is to come."

ANSWER FOUR: The ability to learn is not a prison or a confine. The ability to learn is a freedom. God was free to create a partially unpredictable creation by sharing his freedom with some of his creatures. Being unable to create new information would be a confine. God is not confined in that way. He is free to create unpredictable free creatures so they can be "holy and blameless before him in love."

ANSWER FOUR: The ability to learn is not a prison or a confine. The ability to learn is a freedom. God was free to create a partially unpredictable creation by sharing his freedom with some of his creatures. Being unable to create new information would be a confine. God is not confined in that way. He is free to create unpredictable free creatures so they can be "holy and blameless before him in love."

You've got some fantastic Scripture to back that up with.

Psalm 89:6

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by notme on 2010/6/27 20:15:55

OBJECTION THREE: "God does not change. Without any other scripture besides His declaration of this one thing, we can conclude that he is timeless, ageless..." - Phanetheus

ANSWER THREE: We know that God never changes morally. God's character never changes. God is always good. This does not mean that God never changes in the sense of performing actions. Jesus' conception was divine change: "the word was made flesh". Jesus' death and resurrection were divine change: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"
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g:Jesus conception was not divine change. You neglect the fact that God is everywhere present. See also Jn. 3:13.

You do not know His name, for if you did you would not be blathering on with such petty ignorant idolartrous insinuations. You are wallowing in the quagmires of intellectual mediocrity, claiming to hold knowledge above God's name and His testimony in the scriptures. you are making yourself not only appear stupid; but become that way, should you persist in this.

In the Bible, there is a word for this type of thing: reprobate.

It's a long defn., however there are fine point to it beyond what below basically explains what IT IS:
In not thanking nor praising God as He is for what He does, one is denying what God says is true. The result is one spirals downhill, like a snowball headed for hell. In this downhill spiral, the ability to discern between what is right and wrong is lost, and one is consumed by their own lusts. Their reasoning becomes unreasonable. Read Romans 1:16-32

The one who is in this state is hard-hearted, having blinded themselves to the truth, only hearing what they choose to hear.

Their own desires decieve them into thinking all is well, yet the end result is destruction. Often this is closer than they think.

(You have just been warned, yet you will probably, as is the case for most in this state, laugh it off until your own personal 9-11 hits you square in the face. At that point, it is more often than not, too late.)
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by naatmi on 2010/6/27 20:15:55

OBJECTION FOUR: "[God] is not confined to learn as a man does." - Phanetheus

ANSWER FOUR: The ability to learn is not a prison or a confine. The ability to learn is a freedom. God was free to create a partially unpredictable creation by sharing his freedom with some of his creatures. Being unable to create new information would be a confine. God is not confined in that way. He is free to create unpredictable free creatures so they can be "holy and blameless before him in love."

How is the anything that God Created partially unpredictable to Him? (check former verses already provided.)

God is free to do anything He so chooses, however, he has chosen to confine Himself to His Word, and therein lies true freedom for us as well. (Ps. 138:2)

Learning is not so much a freedom as you assume. The more one learns, the more that must be learned further...and the more you know, pride grows all the more with it.

This creates slavish bondage to human reason, and no man can serve two masters.

As well, there are many problems with pride, starting with God in opposition to such:
Prov. 11:2, 13:10, 14:3, 29:23, 16:18

Learning without God's wisdom is a sure road to hell. Call it freedom if you want.

May you rest in the faith of God and not reason,
g

p.s. Since you probably still have all the answers
to objections(?), P.M. me should this be the case, because this is a useless waste of forum space. There will be no more response to you on this thread. Further, make sure your answers to everything have two or three scriptures to back them up or there will be no response at all.