jesus

codek, you already know what must be done.

Your pain and frustration is easy to hear. Probably everyone on SI knows something about that and years of that leads some to pray for revival and others to leave their fellowship, and others to .... For some reason you are not AS ASLEEP or AS INTIMIDATED as others. How did that happen?

It isn't spiritual growth until its tested in the body life of Christ.

Maybe the problem is peoples {self or ego issues}.The gospel is, JESUS SAID TO HAVE ME IS TO (LOVE ME). Its a self issue with mankind in general the sin of sins Adams and mine thats MY cross. THANK YOU LORD,for your sacrifice.Maybe satins secret is {carnal Christianity}.I could not mortify self WITHOUT JESUS. GOD BLESS.

codek: i think most on si feel the same exact way. remember that we're to follow our Lord which ever way and not to 'people please.' we're not suppose to follow people! i'm sorry but some things just can't be helped. the churches of ephesus and laodicea couldn't be helped until Christ had to rebuke them personally and it feels like there will be churches/individuals that will have to get rebuked by Christ personally.

please what ever you do do not lose faith. keep plugging in the gospels and focus on the general commands of Jesus and follow them. the words in red are the best!

we follow Christ not people!

Just remember: if you are one of the Called-Out, you will be expunged from "church". When it happens, recall that this is a good thing and not a bad thing. :)

Brother you are not alone in your sentiments.

Psalm 119:104
From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

Apathy is prevalent in many churches. I have seen "seeker-friendliness" humanism creep its way into theology with many men of God (formerly good) not even realizing. I have seen men of God been petrified to discuss the holy spirit in the light of new testament theology as it could offend members who have been serving with love for decades without being baptized by the holy spirit. Some men of God would rather not rock the theological boat. Ive heard people ask in study

"i have accepted Christ, what other baptism is there?, once you accept Christ thats it you are baptised with the holy spirit". *i listened to this and remained silent*

How many times do you see in bible "and being filled with the holy spirit he spoke with boldness"

or is it "and being filled with the holy spirit,apathy crept in and he found a quite spot to pray for others"

we know the holy spirit convicts on sin, righteousness and judgment he is the one that touches hearts we are just his vessels. The devil knows that two can never walk together unless they be in agreement so to prevent us maturing with the aide of koinoia what better way to render a church weak than introducing doctrine that prevents true fellowship with the holy spirit. Its sad to see people desperate to have a vision of mary than to be filled and fellowship with the holy spirit. Some of us take more pride in the number of books we read(formerly such a person) than the number of souls lead to Christ and this to is a form of apathy. What use is it knowing ancient Greek but dont know your neighboors name and dont care if they saved or not? (Yes this to is apathy) or that sibling that is catholic or seven day Adventist that believes what could be damanble but who are we to judge? The point is in some way or form we are all guilty to some degree of apathy at one time or another. But does this mean we are not to admonish as we are lead by the spirit? Because we are imperfect men.. certainly not.

I have seen where members allow a preacher to preach as much as he wants until he crosses the line by questioning dogma and he is promptly brought back in check.

Some Men of God are too intimidated to speak the truth for fear of losing members and the would rather intimidate the ones who speak out. Often i find the relatively younger Christians who havent been around long enough to be corrupted by religious dogma are often the ones who impetuously speak out.

Yes some people received the Spirit straight away but its not a one size fits all. We are instructed to admonish one another but the prerequisite to that is letting the word of God dwell in us richly. We cant ignore the word of God and embrace humanism and then cry out to God (who searches our hearts) it just wont work.

I have had someone on SI advice about praying for such people to which i took on board. But its often easy to treat such advice as apathy disguised as wisdom. But the other day i was reading a book about pauls spirituality and the next time i read and epistle i could help but notice the number of times paul would often say "i never cease to pray for you". Paul would admonish with theology, praise the people for what they did right but what is remarkable he never ceased to pray for the churches.

My guess is that nothing changes under the sun what has been will be.... We can learn from pauls example and pray always for the church. But we should as the spirit leads also admonish one another in love as we are instructed to do so.

Dont forget also the word of God can be such a great source of encouragement when facing such issues continue in it steadfastly brother. Remember beloved he has not given us a spirit of fear. Remember perfect love casts aside all fear. Be ye baptised and speak with boldness..... as you are led
God Bless

Actually, codek, God doesn't "expunge" people from the visible church. There is no such thing in the Bible as a Christian that is not connected to a visible body of believers. Therefore, I have told people before that, if they are not connected and committed to a visible church, they can have no assurance of their salvation in any Biblical sense of assurance.

Did Paul tell the "serious" Christians to come out of the church at Corinth when there was incest going on? What about the "serious" believers at the church of Sardis? Be committed to a church, even if you feel that nobody else is serious. How do you know, codek, if you will be the one to spark the needed revival of spiritual vitality in that church?

Yet, many, like you, choose the path of abandoning the visible church, flying in the face of all Scripture and dishonoring God.

I know these words are sharp, but I fear this is the greatest sin I see on SermonIndex. And it is dangerous because many have deluded themselves into believing that God actually told them to leave the visible church (told them outside of the Bible, of course, since the Bible never says to ever abandon the visible church).

I will be maligned for my words, but search the Scriptures and tell me if God ever gives a Christian directions to abandon the visible church. If you can't produce a Scripture, then what foundation are you standing on?

With care in Christ...

Sharp but much needed words Taylor for me that is.

I am currently in a similar situation and the only thing that has kept me in the church is my testimony because I figure if God can set me straight then He can do far more than that with a whole group of people, since I know I was a mess and still am (by grace God is straightening me out even more) I have used this to work even further on the religious spirit inside me that is critical of others.

I know the frustration but I cling to the hope that Christ may use me to free someone from that same religious spirit even if its just me being further released from it. I eventually want to start a home church but it is not yet time for that God still has me where He wants me and that is where I intend to stay.

Codek simply listen to the Holy Spirit on this matter and I will be praying for you.

God Bless,
Matthew

Thank you for the encouragement mguldner.

I would simply add, yes, listen to the Holy Spirit, specifically, listen to the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scriptures. Can you find Scriptural support for what you are doing?

I haven't met anyone yet who can produce a Scriptural argument for leaving the visible church. Yet, many wrongly believe the Spirit has spoken to them outside of the Scripture on this matter and have separated themselves from the visible church. Again, I can offer no assurance of salvation to such a person, as there is no example of a Christian existing outside of the visible church in the New Testament.

The Spirit does not speak in contradiction to the Word, or even in addition to the Word, but only confirms what the Word already teaches. Do not be led astray by the New Age view of the Holy Spirit that has essentially taken over most of the church, yet is foreign to the Bible.

With care in Christ...

I do agree with you brother Taylor being a part of a visable local church is of uttermost importance, but i would not say stay no matter what,there are scriptures indicating some things should be departed from and to come out from among them. But i would say if one do that one should have a destination in another visible church! even if that church is only two or three people.... to leave and be alone i am sure is not the Lords will, even tho Paul himself might have been alone for as much as three years after his conversion i dont think that is for the majority of believers today.

And the most important think i think is not to "attend a church" or being "busy" in a church, but to gather with brothers and sisters so we can "build one another up in our most holy faith" encourage one another and be "accountable" to one another in love.

And i think we might have to define what a "true visible" church is by scripture, i would not encourage anyone to stay in a church that has serious errors that might be harmful on their relationship with the Lord. But generally speaking i would agree with brother Taylor, we should with all our might and Gods leading find a church, and to find a perfect church that fit all our "convictions" on what a church should be we will never, since there is no perfect man except the Lord, and i also want to share what Zac Poonen shares in some messages, we might complain we do church wrong in this church, or we have that thing wrong and we do this wrong etc. But it is possible and it was for the Egyptians to build an exact replica of the tabernacle, but God would not be there... and so can we try build a church with an exact "replica" of the NT pattern of what a church should be, and God not be there.

For me the church is a group of believers that by being together, breaking bread to gather, sharing Gods word and pray together and all this makes you more Christlike, creates a greater desire to fight sin in your life, to serve the Lord and be a witness in your everyday life God put you in. That is the church.

To sojourn alone is dangerous for the spiritual life, in one sense we are never alone since Jesus is with us, but if it is by our choice we are alone, i think we have not chosen wisely.

We're in complete agreement, brother Christian!

I agree with you, it is sometimes necessary to leave a church, but only to be joined with another church, not to walk alone in "solitude".

With care in Christ...

TaylorOtwell wrote:

"I will be maligned for my words, but search the Scriptures and tell me if God ever gives a Christian directions to abandon the visible church. If you can't produce a Scripture, then what foundation are you standing on?"

Yes brother. A brother or sister may leave a church "building", but they do not leave the true Church. The Church is not a place to meet or the building that people meet in, it is the body of believers itself. If your talking about church buildings and pulpits, then there may be a bigger issue here then is being dealt with.

If you are not talking about buildings and pulpits, then we are in agreement that one should not take themself out of the Church...that is how cults form.

I'm talking about visible churches. I'm not talking about the invisible church (which is simply all of the believers around the world). There is no Scriptural example of a believer being totally disconnected from all visible churches. All Christians in the New Testament were committed to a local, visible church that they met with on a weekly basis.

So, I believe you would have to prove from Scripture one can be a part of the invisible church yet never manifest that in joining the visible church. I do not believe there is any such Scripture.

I suppose it is possible to wander into a church like wandering into an un-reached people group, particularly if we do not pray regarding finding a body of believers to fellowship with and if we have little experience of knowing how, and that, God leads.

I doubt that anyone is the ONLY believer in a gathering of those who think they are Christians and aim to worship God. And yes, perhaps a few ARE led by God, as Paul was, to places where no one knew Him.

How able is one person to be the Body alone. Even if Jesus had pursued that in His days of flesh, it is hard to see how we all would not die in our sins in such a case. There is great grace and help to those who enter into the fellowship of His suffering in this: He did experience worship in a gathering of blind worshipers who did not know scripture though they spoke it often.

I do think that “it is not growth until it is tested in the Body of Christ.” Oh, I see I posted on this thread already. I know God loves the Body of Christ, it is His handiwork and He desires all men to discern Him (both inside and outside of churches). Speaking with others, praying, about your current walk with God (not your church issues) can be helpful. Applying lessons learned with unbelieving neighbors and co-workers can be helpful.

Our prayers, here, for believers throughout this nation in similar situations could be heard as prayer for revival.

codek,

I think I perfectly understand you, I just don't believe God told you to separate yourself from the visible church. God doesn't act contrary to His word. His word says it is a sin to separate from yourself from the visible church. Period. People can try to hyper-spiritualize it any way they want by claiming that God told them to do it, but the fact remains that the Bible still calls it sin.

John the Baptist lived during a time where there was no such thing as a New Testament church as we know it in Acts and the epistles, so he cannot be used as an example. He couldn't have joined a church because there was no church to join.

I know these words are sharp, but I fear this is the greatest sin I see on SermonIndex. And it is dangerous because many have deluded themselves into believing that God actually told them to leave the visible church (told them outside of the Bible, of course, since the Bible never says to ever abandon the visible church).

I fully agree with you Taylor. A "come out and be seperate from them" attitude is never taught in Scripture in relationship of one believer to the local Church. So long as there are "two or three" gathered together in the name of Christ, with people who are genuinely saved, we are called to be part of a local assembly no matter how immature or carnal they may be.

In my opinion, a cynical and jadded spirit is often what motivates people to abandon meeting with others at a local fellowship, not the Holy Spirit. God has not abandoned our brethren, in spite of their immature, seeker sensitive, humanistic beliefs and lifestyles, and neither should we. Instead of abandoning a local body of believers, we who are spiritual are commanded to restore those who have fallen into the many snares of the devil. Instead of forsaking the brethren, we are called to model our lives after Christ, and encourage others to do the same.

Such is a hard thing to do, but truth be told, many of us simply do not have the stomach for such a thing. Such a thing is a cross God calls us to embrace, but instead of embracing it, many of us run. And in our running, God shows we are just as carnal as those whom we refuse to have anything to do with.

Such may be hard words to accept, as Taylor has said. But I say this as somebody who has been a part of such churches. I've sat through service after service that was dead, and lacking the power of the Spirit. I yearned so much for something more. I wanted to see the lives of others changed and transformed, so that the saints might go on from glory to glory.

I've had to die times without number in this regard, all while I've earnestly sought the Lord, and attempted to minister in whatever capacity I could, either during a service or outside of service. I've often run into pastors who've attempted to censure and muzzle me in the process. And sometimes I embraced that censure as being from the hand of God, while I patiently sat quiet and prayed and waited on God, all while I continued to meet with the saints, day after day and week after week.

Sometimes I've seen results, sometimes I haven't, but either way, I was committed to being faithful to the Lord and what the Scriptures teach. It was painful at times. It was sometimes lonely. But, I have never left a Church without the Lord telling me to leave, and when I did, it was so that I might quickly join myself to another fellowship. I've never left one church out of bad blood, or for some laundry list of reasons. Such is the spirit of a schismatic. Everytime I've left a church to join another, it has been for one reason and one reason only: because the Holy Spirit simply said it was time for me to find fellowship elsewhere.

No doubt, I've found "issues" that grieved my heart wherever I have been. Indeed, the church I am at now has issues that grieve my heart. Though tempted to do so many times, I have never left a church out of a sense of disappiontment or hurt, grieved over some on going problem at that church. Rather, I left still head over heels in love with the saints at that fellowship. It has always been hard for me to leave. And the church I'm at now? I'm greatly in love with them, and wish to make a difference in their lives, and I hope they do the same in mine. Why? Because I deeply love my brethren for whom Christ died, as carnal as some might be. To date, I have yet to sense those who cite the "come out and be seperate" mantra to have such a fierce love for the body of Christ.

So, I would encourage my brethren, whatever church you might be at, no matter how carnal, stay where the Lord has planted you, and grow. Never leave over a laundry list of issues. Stay until the Lord shows you that He simply needs you elsewhere, and don't move until then. And then when you do move, do so quickly. Don't stay out in "the wilderness" for months or years on end. To be separate from your brethren is not spiritual. It is carnal, and fleshly.

Amen, Brother Jimmy.

If a man labors within the local church he is a member of and never sees any change or growth in the spiritual life of the members, I commend that man. He labored, persevered, and was committed to a people. And for that, he will be rewarded.

With care in Christ...