The Love of God or the wrath of God?

sermonindex Jul 11, 2010

"Historically, often when people were enlightened to the great love God has for them, their hearts were melted in shame and remorse for the calloused way they previously responded to His compassion. David Brainerd, the early missionary to the American Indians, testified that his preaching on God's love reduced his listeners to tears rather than his preaching on God's judgement. Grasping even partially, the incredible love God has for us ought to drive us to our knees in awe and profound gratitude, and it likewise should cause us to grieve every time we fail to properly respond to that love." (Fresh Encounters, pg 99)

The world still desperately needs to see a demonstration of the love of God through His people. "Beware the angry watchmen." ..........brother Frank

S

sojourner7 Jul 11, 2010

We need to bear living witness of GOD'S
divine and eternal love by walking in
that wonderful love!!

S

StarofG0D Jul 11, 2010

amen sojourner

A

AbideinHim Jul 11, 2010

"The world still desperately needs to see a demonstration of the love of God through His people. "Beware the angry watchmen."

Amen brother Frank! The world will know we are Christians by our love for one another, and the love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost.

We need to preach the whole council of God to sinners and this includes both the love and wrath of God. We can't pick and choose.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8).

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans 1:18).

Mike

W

whyme Jul 12, 2010

Appolus,

I know we all come from different backgrounds and experiences. It sounds as if you come from experience with an overabundance of preaching on God's wrath. I come from the exact opposite experiences. I am always prepared to honor God's truth about His wrath which is in His word often as well as to speak of His Love. In my areas of travel, the love of God is much talked of and preached upon but the truth of God's justice and wrath is avoided at all costs so as not to turn away anyone. I find the teaching of God's justice and judgement against sin a compelling backdrop to the amazing grace and love He shows to sinners who offend a Holy God. It is mercy that triumphs over God's judgement, not over His justice, hence the wonderful display of God's love and justice as perfect companions on the cross.

sermonindex Jul 12, 2010

Hi whyme,

I dont come from that kind of background actually :) I come from many backgrounds. Born-again at 26, penetecostal in practice, Baptist Bible school. I have seen cheap grace, and I have seen the angry watchmen and everything in between. In everything there is balance. Its important not to confuse those who preach cheap grace with those who share the genuine love of God with saints and sinners.

I like brother Mike's reply, it shows genuine balance. I think it is also important to keep in mind that the quote was from "Fresh Encouners,' the Blackaby's book on revival. Given a wide depth of experience, I still say that the world rarely sees an expression of the genuine love of God through His followers. I agree that there is a beautiful paradox of mercy and judgement on the cross of Calvary. What the quote was alluding to, and what I would agree with is that when men come accross the love of Calvary, the genuine superantural love of Calvary, a light goes on and searches the deepest parts of them and they cry out because they finally, by the power of the Holy Spirit, see their true state and cry out something like "Is there mercy for me,?" or "what must I do to be saved." Make no mistake, when a man or woman has a radical encounter, with the true and living God, that man or woman knows his state......brother Frank

C

Chicku Jul 12, 2010

Thanks a lot Frank...
This article really spoke to me...
Our God is So Good...

S

savannah Jul 12, 2010

It may be helpful to all who do read this thread if someone would do all the service of directing us to places in the Biblical record where men came to God.

What was the message they responded to,by what means and what persons was it brought,what was their relation to the responders if any,what was the method,manner,approach,attitude,of the messenger,and so on.

If we did a study from Genesis to Revelation what would we find?

After doing so,let us imitate what we find, and so we can be assured of God's blessing,regardless of results.

I am confident that one would find a significantly common thread weaving through the whole tapestry.

"To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen." Jude 1:25

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be to him." Rev. 5:13

"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be the glory forever! Amen." Rom. 11:36

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory, and honor, and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Rev. 4:11

"Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name!" Psalm 103:1

J

jimp Jul 12, 2010

hi, as a true testimony in my life...i was an evangelist in the employ of a major evangelist and spoke in smaller churches. in one of these meetings i found myself lusting after the young pianist with the short skirt and made up my mind to leave the ministry rather than disgrace the Lord with another hypocrite falling in sin.i went back in the niteclub business and soon got kicked out of my church by the pastor and deacons."christians" would come by and tell me how i should turn or burn or that i was without hope. i began to hate to see another christian preaching fear...for it has torment. one day a man come up and asked if i was jim and could he talk to me...he told me Jesus loved me just the way i was...the Holy Spirit came so strong i began to sob in the restaurant with conviction..God is love and love has power..that was 45 years ago and i have served him over that time.jimp

sermonindex Jul 12, 2010

Amen brother frank. There is a place for the wrath of God but the overarching message must be the love of God! That is Christianity.

sermonindex Jul 12, 2010

Beautiful testimony brother Jim.

Amen Greg, I believe that in your own travels you have seen much of what is out there and able to give an informed opinion.

I believe that one of the problems for me looking at a wide context, and looking back at the last couple of generations, we see so many who " came to Christ,' in order to " avoid hell." They heard the message and they heard this kind of alter call " Hands up who wants to go to hell?" "Now hands up who wants to go to heaven?" And many trooped forward and purchased " fire insurance." They had just been told they were going to hell because they were sinners, some times angrily, sometimes not, and of course, in a humanistic sense, vey few people want to go to hell. I guess what I am trying to say is that cheap grace has two main faces. There is the " God is a santa claus, grandfatherly type who loves everyone and would never send anyone to hell,' and then there is the " God is very angry and you better run to this alter right now because your all gonna burn."

I would say that, in my own personal experience, and I believe the NT would bear this out, that truly converted people, regenerated, new creatures in Christ, were captivated and captured by God's love. They were astonished to truly realize how much God loved them, and they saw that the connection between them and His love was the sacrifice of His only Son on Calvary.

It is a devastating revelation to discover that God loved us that much. And then it is an agony to realize that we caused the Lord, our own sins caused Him to die upon the cross, and every part of our humanity knows that we should be judged, condemned, rejected and then to find out that all of that, Jesus took for us.

When men try and convince men of their sin,without the power of God, it only goes so deep. When the Spirit of God comes upon a man, He strips him naked and that man stands in an all penetrating light. Love leads to this kind of encounter. Not some namby pamby humanistic love of the world, but the devastating, life changing love of the Calvary that goes straight to the heart of a man, violently penetrates the hard heart and thouroughly pierces him until he runs screaming back into the darkness or falls down at the feet of Jesus and arise a new man, a new creature where behold all things are new and the old is dead............brother Frank

M

mguldner Jul 12, 2010

For me I came to Christ when I came in contact with the Truth of Christ, it shook me to the core and I needed to know more.

I knew of God's Holiness but I didn't know it
I knew of God's Wrath and Righteous judgment but I didn't know it
I knew of God's wondereous Mercy but didn't know it
I knew of God's gracious Love but I didn't know it.

The day God encountered my heart He showed me first His Holiness, and from there I understood the rest I am still seeking to know these attributes on a deeper level to know and understand the Loving Father.

My walk with Christ isn't perfect and I still struggle quite a bit even at times question my own salvation because of my complacent heart or just mere laziness. But I know who I am a wretch that needs a Savior fully deserving of death and hellfire yet restful in Grace. Ultimately my trust is in the Lord and His final decision if He says I am going to Hell I can't argue its what I deserve but If He shows me His mercy on that day what great rejoicing I will have.

I decided also that if God decides to give me a crown its only so that I won't be left out when all of Heaven and Earth cast their crowns before the Throne of the Lamb

God Bless,
Matthew

L

Lkid Jul 12, 2010

I would highly recommend the audio book on this site called The Revolution of Love by George Verwer. God is reminding me lately that the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart etc, not to by holy, or to obey or anything else. The more i fall in love with Him because of who He is and what He did the more i will gladly follow Him where He has called me and commanded me. You can obey and not love God, but you can't truly love God and not obey.

God is love says the apostle John, and the overwhelming theme and character of God portrayed in the New Testament is one of love. Even as we get into the Revelation and storm clouds accumulate for judgment, the sun appears in chapters 20-22 and every tear is wiped away as we drink from the water of life, hallelujah!

sermonindex Jul 13, 2010

HI Matthew, that reply disturbs me on a few levels. Brother, you know I love you and so , please carefully consider what I say to you. You are not a wretch who needs a savior. You write.........

"Ultimately my trust is in the Lord and His final decision if He says I am going to Hell I can't argue its what I deserve but If He shows me His mercy on that day what great rejoicing I will have."

Brother, that sounds very Catholic to me. If I were to re-phrase what you wrote it would go something like this "maybe if I get lucky on that day then I will get into heaven."

Brother, do you not have assurance of your salvation? If you were to die tonight do you not know where you would go? Have I picked you up wrong? If so, could you please explain it to me. If you know Jesus, and I am pretty sure that you do, then you already have found your Savior and your Lord. To be in Christ is to be a saint. To be in Christ is to be a son of the most high God. You once were a wretch but now your redeemed. You once were blind but now you see. Past tense and present tense brother. There is only one entity on earth that gleans any advantage by brothers and sisters not realizing their standing before God. You have access to the very throne of Grace and that access was wrought for you at the very highest cost, Calvary. Do not let the enemy or any kind of false humility rob you of your standing before your Father in heaven through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your reply is double edged. You write.........

"The day God encountered my heart He showed me first His Holiness, and from there I understood the rest I am still seeking to know these attributes on a deeper level to know and understand the Loving Father."

And to that I say amen!

M

mguldner Jul 13, 2010

I can definitely see where I would sound Catholic brother Frank, What I was trying to say is that I don't deserve Heaven simply put my salvation isn't based off of what I do but on who Christ Jesus is. I am coming out of a very religious spirit that I battle with daily that causes me to question my salvation though I know that God's grace covers me.

I have a tendency to compare myself to others and wonder why I am not as strong in the Lord as they nor why I don't witness as often I as should. As far as Assurance of Salvation I am not entirely sure what that is nor have I thought I experienced what true Salvation is expect Christ working in me. I have a tendency to over intellectualize a lot and from that second guess quite a bit of my life in the Lord.

What I am seeking is reality in Christ and have found the only reality there is, is Christ. I think that my main problem is pride though I am still trying to find the end of myself. The assurance of Salvation I have is that God delights in Mercy for those that turn to Him and trust in Him and rely on Him. The reason why I question is because I sometimes let that religious man rise up and bring me under condemnation because I feel there is something I must do rather than Trust and Obey God. Some people say they came to the end of themselves and I don't believe I have come to that other than knowing who I am not without Christ. As Paul said there is no good thing in my flesh, I am still trying to grasp and understand the other side of the coin of this of what we are in Christ.

Thank you for you question because this has been something that has really been bugging me lately. I really appreciate the concerns.

God Bless,
Matthew

P

passerby Jul 13, 2010

A truly perplexing question. As I have gone reading through the bible I feel a very strong emphasis on both of them. The Lord Jesus and His apostles neither neglected one or the other.

They were so passionate in warning the people while at the same time introduced a quite radical and consuming reality on how God really cares for us.

Even at the closing pages of the bible you can feel the full stress of both realities to which the fate of every human being will eventually bow into submission.

At times I wonder how come some people are so numb, what will I do to make them think what I am thinking, where am I going to start.

The bottom line reality is_ we can do nothing. There is no short or long formula. It is by the Holy Spirit and by His guidance that we will seek to perform any ministry that is ahead of us.

It will do well if we will not neglect to incorporate in our church and individual activities the reading and study of the whole bible.

This is how will the Lord teach us, remind us, and guide as as His followers.

P

passerby Jul 13, 2010

This is not really to disagree to any body, I am just thinking that the demand of the moment maybe different from what we are thinking.

In the more routine course of daily life I am inclined to talk more on the grace of God.

A

Areadymind Jul 13, 2010

Q: Wrath or Love?

A: Jude: 21-23, "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And some have compassion, making a difference; And others save with fear pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

Conundrum: How do you know which to use?

Solution: Be Spirit led. Because it is only now, "Unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty dominion and power, both now and forever Amen."
Jude: 24-25

Worth pondering: Jude seems concerned with those whom have been dealt a slimy hand from deceivers, and wicked grace twisting infiltrators.

sermonindex Jul 13, 2010

Quote........

"Solution: Be Spirit led."

Amen, yes, in all things. I believe that love is the measure of all that we do. Speaking the truth in love is the most dangerous position. Supernatural love peels a mans heart wide open. Love is the tip of the spear that penetrates. Without love there can be no penetration of the heart. That is why so many " street preachers,' are innefective. If you do not burn with love for the people that you preach too, you should not be preaching. If you want to see people judged, you have the wrong spirit.

Matthew, consider these............

Man's basic problem is preoccupation with self. He is innately beset with narcissism, a condition named after the Greek mythological character Narcissus, who spent his life admiring his reflection in a pool of water. In the final analysis, every sin results from preoccupation with self. We sin because we are totally se...lfish, totally devoted to ourselves, rather than to God and to others.- John MacArthur

Nothing in the world so tends to defile the imagination, to pervert the affections, and to corrupt the morals, as self-consciousness. You know it is connected with every disease and morbid action of the body. …All self-consciousness is of the very essence and nature of sin. -A.A. Hodge

Brother, when we take our eyes off of ourselves and lift them to Jesus, then it gets pretty simple. Death to self is fine as long as it takes place because of our encounters with Jesus. Everything must flow from a fixed gaze upon Him. Does that make sense? ......brother Frank

M

mguldner Jul 13, 2010

I understand I am just tired of the Hypocrisy of my everyday life and want to live as Jesus did I have a desire to do what the bible says but when it comes to actually doing it through Christ I let self get in the way. Thank you for the encouragement though I will begin to look to Christ Jesus more rather than on myself. He is the solution not anything that I can do.