Shocked and Disgusted

I've been sharing a thought I've had for a while with a few different brothers and sisters, and was thinking, "Why not share it with the rest of the family?"As believers, we tend to look at the downward trends, laws, and actions of secular society around us, and we are shocked and disgusted...But why? They are just being true to their nature.On the other hand, secular society tends to look at us (the church) and they are shocked and disgusted...and the horrible thing is, they have every right in the world to be...because we are not living true to our nature.We say we believe in the innerancy of God's word, that we serve the True and Only Living God who does the impossible, who radically 'altars' people's lives...and yet they look at our words and they don't line up with our actions.Look at the city you live in.Is it better off than when you first came to Christ?Escondido, California is where I live. A conservative count of evangelical churches in our city is 82. There are more than that. And our city isn't THAT big. When I tell believers here that number, they are surprised. Then I ask, "Is the city better off today than it was 30 years ago?"They always slowly shake their head after a second and reply, "No. No, it isn't."Ask yourself the same question as you look at where God has you...maybe you'll be being brought to the same place I am being brought...Shocked and Disgusted.

Thank you, Josh, for posting this. The Lord is more and more impressing on my heart that the only way to go in these last days is to share His burden and His heart for what we see around us. That includes our family and friends (Christians and non Christians), our cities and town, our country... And it begins by letting the Lord show us where we are ourselves. There is so much pointing in this direction. I pray that we may see it all the more clearly.

hmmm,Well, I hear ya Josh. But I am wondering at the same time...Verse's are coming fast and furious."Wide is the road...""My Kingdom is not of this world""If they persecuted Me...""Few there be...""as in the days of Noah""Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will whip in your synagogues and persecute from town to town."This is all kind of random and during times of revival I can understand the transformation of communites...for a time. Seems that history has shown that the tendency is to revert back to the carnal nature and reveal the separating of the wheat from the chaff.Guess I am just thinking out loud, but what if the church was acting in accordance with the Lord in all things. Was a shining example. What would the real effect be on the community? For some reason I can't get around the thought that it would be persecuted more than exalted...Again just random thoughts, much to dwell on here and think this could become quite a lively discussion.

I hear what you're saying, Mike. And just to throw in some clarity, I'm not even necessarily saying that everyone in Escondido should be saved, sanctified and walking around with a Bible under their arms because there are '82' churches in escondido.I am chewing my way through the Acts of the Apostles and I am seeing a pattern as I go through.People are either being soundly converted, baptized with water, with the Holy Spirit, with fire, with boldness to preach Christ everywhere they go, (even with persecution in the midst)......or they are rebelling against the word of the Lord and His followers, seeking to drive them out, not slowly or subtly, but with violence, hatred, threats and murder.It's hard to find a city that is complacent either way (slowly 'warming up to the gospel' or 'slowly rejecting the truth of the gospel') in the book of Acts while believers are in the midst.And so I look at where we are, where I am, and look at the general reactions of the church towards society and their reaction toward the church...and something doesn't line up.Does this help at all, or am I talking in circles?

Acts is a great book. It's seeing the body of Christ come alive. It's seeing victory over sin and once sin raises its head, the Holy Spirit immediately deals with it.In the post-modern church, Ananias and his wife would be lauded for their generosity. Simon Maggus would be encouraged, rather than rebuked as he was in the book of Acts.Until the world sees something different in the church, why should they repent? Another thing that amazes me is that why don't we see unbelief in Acts?I believe Acts is the place where the body of Christ needs to get back to. Once we do that, the persecution will come but the name of Jesus will be lifted up.We're going through Acts at church and the word is coming forth with power. If you would like a sermon on Acts, I'll be happy to send. We had one the other night on Simon Maggus (or Simon, the sorceror). It certainly exposed some things in my heart.

Oarsman7Your sentiments are heartfelt and sadly all too true. The other day after a very organized church service, void of the Spirit, a friend of mine stood, transfixed and asked him what the problem was, he looked at me and said very casually, “I’m just observing the flesh”.At the time, his words were a little offensive but sadly, that was the truth of the matter. When we were in darkness we were living in a dream world, after we stepped into the light God showed us the world as he sees it and it is a burden of the spirit of any true believer.Dr. Tozer had a theory; that at anytime, the majority of God’s people can fall away into a falsity or lukewarmness, whereas a remnant is spared and saved- “the doctrine of the remnant”. Of course one man’s opinion is not everything but, for me, there is a lot of truth in that statement.The real problem with the church, in my opinion, is not so much a lack of Spirit filled preachers (although that is a big part of it) but it is a distinct lack of Spirit filled Christians. This is compounded by complacency and lack of concern not only for one’s own spiritual welfare but also for anyone else’s spiritual welfare.The spiritual world is getting exceedingly efficient at spreading the darkness and unless the light of the whole body of Christ is shining, it is likely that, on a broad scale, things will get a lot worse before they get better... In ChristJames

I look at where we are, where I am, and look at the general reactions of the church towards society and their reaction toward the church...and something doesn't line up. That is so true, Josh. You've described the dichotomy. I think about this stuff every day.The book of Acts. A great mystery. Can any of us fathom it? Dare I live it? I read my bible and it is not matching what I've seen of Christianity in America. The closest thing extant in our day, that I can find, are scattered missionaries who live by faith, and the house churches of China and Asia."I know you inside and out, and find little to my liking. You're not cold, you're not hot --- far better to be either cold or hot! You're stale. You're stagnant. You make me want to vomit. You brag, 'I'm rich, I've got it made, I need nothing from anyone', oblivious that in fact you're a pitiful, blind beggar, threadbare and homeless.... Are your ears awake? Listen. Listen to the Wind Words, the Spirit blowing through the churches." {Rev. 3:15-18, 22, The Message Bible}Face it: We're fat, we're healthy, we have no need of God. Unless we take radical steps to deny ourselves we cannot fully comprehend most of the New Testament. Hudson Taylor's life, for example. What a slap in the face. That man, at age 17, set up his own 'tests' of faith to strengthen his relationship with God. He lived on tiny amounts of food for the "twofold [purpose] of accustomizing myself to endure hardness, and of economizing in order to help those among whom I was laboring in the Gospel (local slums). I soon found that I could live upon very much less than I had previously thought possible. Butter, milk, and other luxuries I ceased to use, and found that by living mainly on oatmeal and rice, with occasional variations, a very small sum was sufficient for my needs. In this way I had more than 2/3s of my income available for other purposes, and my experience was that the less I spent on myself and the more I gave to others, the fuller of happiness and blessing did my soul become.' (emphasis mine)He found the cheapest room he could, which was near an open sewer. He sewed his own notebooks together to save money. He earned a wage working for a doctor, but refused to remind him when his pay was due, despite the doctor's strict orders to do so! Instead, he prayed that God would remind the doctor for him! Would YOU do that? Would I do that? How would we treat our friends if THEY did that? Wouldn't we say 'Hey, your faith isn't based on works, man! That's not the way to get closer to God! It doesn't matter what you DO, it's what you believe! Don't get into that poverty stuff, that's weird! It's a lie of the enemy! Enjoy what God gives you! It's not Christian to deny His blessings!' (i.e., material possessions)Ouch and ouch.Mrs. Fred

"Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."~Peter

Hey Josh,No, your not talking in circles at all.People are either being soundly converted, baptized with water, with the Holy Spirit, with fire, with boldness to preach Christ everywhere they go, (even with persecution in the midst)......or they are rebelling against the word of the Lord and His followers, seeking to drive them out, not slowly or subtly, but with violence, hatred, threats and murder.That is exactely where I was going. I pondered on this some more today and what came to mind is something I recall from somewhere about how this is all supposed to be working out in reality. Wish I could formulate it better as it seems kind of vauge at the moment...What is our mandate and what expectations should we have as a result? Are we to be 'change agents' in society and our surrounding communities or are we 'those peculiar people'? I know it's not a 'we/they seige mentality' nor is it supposed to be a cozy, comfortable, compromised...'let's all just get along' with the world, which seems to be more of what is happening these days.Maybe the answer lies in what has been said already, using the examples you presented...little of either?Maybe I am the one talking in circles...Have a lot more questions than answers and also look out at the masses of our kind and wonder how many even think about just what it is they are doing. Where they are headed and...what? It will all just be fine in the sweet by and by? Death is a 'taboo' subject, even in our churches, sure they will give it the passing nod because of our Lord, but will they hang around and present it in all it's stark certainty? Otherwise inside or outside the chuch it's just to 'morbid'? The only thing morbid about it is the refusal to deal with it as it in fact is. No sense in preaching to the choir here, guess I am just always bemused at the depths of our depravity, how far we will go to avoid dealing with reality. Sorry, off on a tangent there.Mrs. Fred, Ouch indeed. Where would this fit into the prosperity message...

Hello allReading the posts on this thread I cannot help but notice the way we describe true Christianity in much the same way. True Christianity as we describe it is sadly an extreme in this world, and indeed, in any world, even in the days of the Apostles, they were considered a “peculiar” people.One real problem is that, those of us who do know the truth (and therefore, have more responsibility than those who do not) are afraid, even terrified to be “peculiar”. We seem to fit so comfortably into the mold the Devil has made for us, not for the purpose of destroying our faith, but for the purpose of distracting us until this vapor of existence we have in our earthly tabernacles is a memory and amongst the great pile of “could-have-beens”. The message God gave to me this morning was simple: Yes, the world is getting worse and those (Christians) who are sleeping are even sleepier…it is very good that you can identify that part, because it means that you are, without a doubt, alive. Now I say to you, stop pointing fingers at the institutions, which, we have come to so easily refer to as “churches” and point your focus towards the real Church, those of you who feel some of my pain; the blame is entirely on you (those who are alive yet inactive). A friend of mine often says to me, with great knowledge comes great responsibility. If God reveals to you a problem in the church, it is meant for you to address by approving yourself as a minister of God and a vessel of light filled with all oil.2 Corinthians 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. Your son in ChristJames

Great points, As a geographer, I found this interesting.I lived and worked in Escondido and San Marcos for 3 years, 1984, and 1999-2000. They got bigger, but not neccesarily worse. My wife is native Californian, and I have noticed more remorse over the change there amongst natives than anywhere else I have been. Spiritually, I had lots of folks invite me to church, but they were all so big!I have now lived in So. MD for 4 years, and it is better; the locals were tobacco farmers, and the govt bought them out! But DC has discovered us... :-o

Hudson Taylor's life, for example. What a slap in the face. That man, at age 17, set up his own 'tests' of faith to strengthen his relationship with God. He lived on tiny amounts of food for the "twofold [purpose] of accustomizing myself to endure hardness, and of economizing in order to help those among whom I was laboring in the Gospel (local slums). I soon found that I could live upon very much less than I had previously thought possible. Butter, milk, and other luxuries I ceased to use, and found that by living mainly on oatmeal and rice, with occasional variations, a very small sum was sufficient for my needs. In this way I had more than 2/3s of my income available for other purposes, and my experience was that the less I spent on myself and the more I gave to others, the fuller of happiness and blessing did my soul become.' (emphasis mine)This kind of living and witnessing and giving up is just the thing I am pondering on more and more in my walk with the risen Lord Jesus. Thank you for giving this example, I haven't learnt much of Hudson Taylor, I am grateful for this info. I have just been reading Voice of the Martyrs and Gospel for Asia missionary work among the poor and persecuted. Then God reminds me and opens my eyes to the life of Jesus and some hard things He says. Jesus, as God led, when He was ready, had no house, Jesus says He has no place to lay His head. Then He says all those who give up house, family, riches, etc will recieve houses, family, etc in the next life. I am thinking and pondering these things. Jesus teaches some hard things, to give all. I am thankful He is changing me on the inside, and guiding me, and forgiving me. I am hopeful He will continue to guide me into all truth and do the will of the Father, to love and worship Him in truth. It is strange some of the teachings of Jesus that He is revealing to me. Like giving up families and houses. Giving all and following Him. I am still thinking of these things, not exactly sure what God is revealing, but I see how other faithful brothers and sisters in Christ have given all, endure persecution and hardships, sometimes even homelessness, for the kingdom. There were the Moravian brothers who sold themselves into slavery to witness of Jesus to slaves. I hope to learn more of this simple living and giving more and more and more for Jesus. Thank you for bearing with me, I am thinking out loud some things I've had on my mind for a few days, that I don't know what to make of. I am thankful someone articulated some of my thoughts and is giving me some more to contemplate and pray about.