Untitled Volume 1

I am sat on my chair late at night i am physically exhausted im completely drained. Nothing left in the tank. My pregnant wife is trying to get my attention but at this point my ugly fleshly side rears its ugly head. I respond "please i am tired" there was only a 10% increase in the sharpness of my voice but it was enough. She goes about doing something else and i can see the disappointment in her face. i feel like Christ wouldnt have behaved that way so i begin to mentally torture myself still the Spirit shows up and puts me straight (corrects the source of tireness). Then my heart is filled with joy. Anyhow she asks me about bible study. Things were said to which i knew their was no scriptural presedent and i knew was erroneous but was too frightened and intimidated to say anything as i felt that i would become the subject of and elders harsh sermon.

The Questions:

1. Can one have fruits of the Spirit without being baptism of the Holy Spirit.

2. What do you do when the gifts are not really allowed and you cant really fulfill office without the ministration of the Spirit at your church how do you teach these things in love.

Testimony

The devil you can defeat by standing on the scripture like jesus. But we christians these days, boy?

It seems like the art of discernment and listening are no longer in existence. Seems as if we are more eager to speak than to listen (Rainman). More eager to chastise than to be teachable ourselves. when i realized the lord was leading me to be more teachable myself before looking at others it was hard, often you want to speak but then, you are told to hold peace.
yesterday i began to see why the spirit would have me hold my peace. An old lady in study preached one of the most profound messages i have heard in a long time. She was speaking literally to me (not directly) but it was so simple, so gentle that i received some much needed direction it was so incredible. She has no knowledge of greek or hebrew was only filling in because pastor was away on holiday and i dont think she could even string 3 verses together when pressed but after reading scripture and she spoke i could feel the power of God in the room for the first time in bible study.

(Yes i know some of you will say women should not teach). I realised that we are there for each other (as a church) she had taught me so much and was probably oblivious to it. But God had things he wanted me to learn before i myself would teach (i think this should be the case for us all)
It reminded me of when paul said "our gospel did not come to you with words only but with power"

Without the power of God(Holy Spirit) backing teaching it is a human endavour which fails to produce fruit. But when the breath of God is in our very words the gospels becomes so simple and so effortless. If we cannot explain the gospel to an aborigine with ease and simplicity what use is complicated and confusing theological dialogue?

I can almost imagine john the baptists face when jesus showed up for baptism. what humility Jesus showed we see the same thing in philipians christ was really humble. Did he show up and the age of 30 and bash everyone with "the word" or had he been deligently growing under instruction of the law and proclaimed to the very people who he had probably listened to that the scripture was fulfilled in thier hearing.

Im still new to this SI thing but sometimes the tone of bickering is really dis-heartening we seem sometimes to be so puffed up that our pride will not let us be still. The way we sometimes insult each other with such harshness doesnt seem anything like the fruits of the Spirit maturity in christ produces. Like the word says in Ezekiel 34 the lord will judge sheep amongst sheep. those here who are spiritual is it a spiritual thing to "muddy the water" and prevent the weaker sheep from drinking and grazing?

My personal opinion it that the fruit of the Spirit is just that, fruit that grows from the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We need the fulness of the Holy Spirit.

The other question for me is easy. We are the church and we can function in the gifts of God anywhere. It doesn't have to be inside the church walls. There is a dying world out there, so minister wherever you are. Lay hands on the sick in Wal Mart, speak a word of wisdom in the McDonalds window. You are the hands of Jesus extended in every place your foot treads. Don't be discouraged if you have no avenue in the organized church, just follow God's leading everywhere.

Also it is good admonition to show kindness and love on SI. I too am saddened at times by the harsh tones. Love hardly notices when others do it wrong. Love covers a multitude of sins. Love keeps no record of wrongs, and a gentle answer turns away wrath. We need to weigh our words carefully, we may have to eat them. If we are just trying to show how much we know we will be disappointed in that day. Just like the little old lady who spoke with great wisdom, simplicity speaks and impacts more people than a multitude of showy words.

Goldminer wrote:
"We are the church and we can function in the gifts of God anywhere. It doesn't have to be inside the church walls"

Amen to that - we are called to be Jesus in the world wherever we are but I can see the difficulty that Rainman has. Our fellowship with other believers is to encourage each other in the faith. Have you ever read, "Word and Spirit together" by David Pawson? There is a chapter Holiness with a sub heading "Gifts are not Fruit" In this he points out that the gifts are immediately accessible to new believers and powerful but they are just what they say, gifts of grace, and do not mark any believer out as superior to another, they are given for service and are in your control. The fruit is the evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit in the saints life and only grow as we get more and more into Him, "I am the vine, ye are the branches" John 15 v 5.

The Corinthian church was exhorted by Paul in 1 Cor. Ch 12 - 14 (all one passage, pity about the chapter divisions), to exercise the gifts in love - they had plenty of gifts but needed to exercise them with restraint, in order and with love in respect of the rest of the fellowship all to the Glory of our Lord Jesus.

Whilst reading this thread my mind immediately went to the audio sermon on the Holy Spirit and Chasing the Dragon by Jackie Pullinger on this site. This is a powerful demonstration of what God can do with a surrendered life of a saint who had difficulty with established churches and the move of the Spirit - once she moved onto the streets - echoes of Goldminer.

Thank you both for the thread and the post and God bless you in your witness and life for Him.

Terry

The Questions:
1. Can one have fruits of the Spirit without being baptism of the Holy Spirit.
2. What do you do when the gifts are not really allowed and you cant really fulfill office without the ministration of the Spirit at your church how do you teach these things in love.

Rainman: As I read your post, I began to think about these two questions and how I would answer them. Fruits are what we bear after our own likeness. An apple tree, if it is a healthy tree, bears apples, but not pears. The fruit of the Spirit are the outward manifestations of what has taken place when we are born again. It is more than just being forgiven of some past sins, but our spirit is made new. We are a new creature. So, our lives will bear the fruit of this new identity. This fruit is love, joy, peace,...
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an empowerment. But ye shall receive power after that.... Even when one is not baptized in the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the born again life should be in manifestation. So the answer is no, one does not have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to manifest the fruit of the spirit.

Question 2 really requires more information. In a very general sense I would advise anyone in that situation, being in a fellowship where the teaching was against the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, against the manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit, and where one would come under public rebuke by the eldership from the pulpit for speaking truth in love, to leave the situation. I for one would not continue in that place. But not having all the information, I can only give a general blanket answer assuming I have the facts right.

I do agree with you in that so many times the flesh creeps in even when brothers and sisters in Christ are discussing the Word of God. Our doctrine is so very important to us and so deeply ingrained that to have it challenged is a very emotional and personal thing. It really should not be so. We should be in the Word and in prayer seeking the truth even if that truth turns our own world upside down. We are all growing, sometimes too slowly it seems in my own life. We do need to have patience one with another, be lonsuffering, forbearing one another in love, preferring one another, and respecting one another.