rhophi
Aug 2, 2010
What do people know about this 1990's revival?
What do people know about this 1990's revival?
I think there would have to be a definition of the term as the word " revival," means different things to different people..........brother Frank
It has been considered a revival. If I have to cater to everyone's opinion of definitions and whatnot, then we will get nowhere. What do people know about the Smithton Outpouring?
"If I have to cater to everyone's opinion of definitions and whatnot, then we will get nowhere"
Brother, I asked a civil question. Civility is the key to any forum. My question remains because I would imagine that many folks on this site may not regard what happened in Toronto and various places in Florida as "revival."
I am praying that we can have a civil discourse..............brother Frank
I know nothing about it, and had not heard of it until now.
Thanks.
It is not revival. It is emotional based. money driven (offerings are a big part). The label "outpouring" is used by Bentley and other movements with the same characteristics.
This is not a revival in the strain of genuine church history, repentance, Christ being glorified, sin being preached against and dealt with, true genuine missions being started.
So what I am gathering, is that because the word "outpouring" is used, that people are assuming it is simply emotion-based. I would like to know the grounds for calling this specific event "emotion-based".
I was a small child at the time, about 8 years old, but there are some things that I do know.
1.) The pastor preached. Not only did he preach, but he preached with conviction. During one of the most memorable sermons, titled "break Free From the Crowd", people (many of them pastors) fell out of their seats under the weight of conviction.
2.) People were healed. I specifically know of a man who was uncapable of lifting his daughter (age 6 I think), or even a jug of milk, due to back injury. During a service he came in with a walker and a back brace, but he threw his walker to the side, ripped off his back brace, and danced around. His daughter came and jumped into his arm and he was able to hold her again.
3.) Peoples lives were changed. Many families that were falling apart were restored permanently and still hold strong today. Even more radically, a woman who had multiple personalities (upwards of seven if I remember right)got delivered of her demons, drove home (Illinois, i think) to her pastor and knocked on his door. When he saw that she was in her right mind he immediately drove down to Smithton, Missouri for the next service.
Yes, there was a lot of emotion involved, but how can you not get excited about things like this. What many call "simply emotion", I call appropriate. Worship with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. I never read any clause in the Bible saying that emotion is to be left out. Some "revivals" or "awakenings" may be simply emotion-driven, but Smithton was not. You will know a tree by its fruit.
Hi Rh. I would certainly agree that emmotions are part of who we are and are part of worshipping God. In fact I would go as far as to say that worship without emmotion is no worship at all. I think the problem that many, inculding myself, who have been around pentecostal circles for a long time is that the emmotions are not driven by the presence of God but my the tempo of the music. If, for instance, in your own church, there was a direct correlation between the tempo of the music and the "activity," of the people, would that not leave room for question? If for instance, you were to lose your worship leader and your pastors tomorrow, for whatever reason, would your church still stand because it is built on the solid foundation of Jesus Christ?
Time and again we have seen the power of the "personality,' in the pulpit. Tozer was writing against this 60 years ago. One small example, the church that I attended for 10 years, a pentecostal non-denominational church, when you walked in the front door there would be a framed picture of the pastor and his wife. This would be the first thing that you would see as you walked in. Now its a small point but very significant to me. If I got a mug from your church, would it say "Jesus," on it or would the pastor and his wife's name be on it? Again, a small point but significant.
John 2:23-24 (KJV)
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Why would Jesus not commit Himself to these particualr followers? Were they not “believers,” and had they not seen miracles? What was it about these people that Jesus knew? Listen to what Matthew Henry says about these believers………
They were tumultuous, and wanted discretion and management. These in Jerusalem perhaps had their expectations of the temporal reign of the Messiah more raised than others, and, in that expectation, would be ready to give some bold strokes at the government if Christ would have committed himself to them and put himself at the head of them; but he would not, for his kingdom is not of this world. We should be shy of turbulent unquiet people, as our Master here was, though they profess to believe in Christ, as these did., knew the wickedness of some and the weakness of others.
The evangelist takes this occasion to assert Christ’s omniscience. 1. He knew all men, not only their names and faces, as it is possible for us to know many, but their nature, dispositions, affections, designs, as we do not know any man, scarcely ourselves. He knows all men, for his powerful hand made them all, his piercing eye sees them all, sees into them. He knows his subtle enemies, and all their secret projects; his false friends, and their true characters; what they really are, whatever they pretend to be. He knows them that are truly his.
IV. That the reason why he did not commit himself to them was because he knew them
Matthew 12:39 (KJV)
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
The Lord will not commit to those who are not committed to Him. This present generation of loud and “tumultuous,” believers are seeking to establish the Lords kingdom here on earth. The sign the Lord gave them is not good enough for them. What sign did the Lord give them? He gave them the sign of the Prophet Jonah. When all aboard the ship knew that they were lost, Jonah was sacrificed to save them. He then spent 3 days in the belly of the whale. All of mankind was and is caught up in a great storm of darkness and tumult.
It is to Calvary that one must look. In the quiet of faith, the Lord will respond to His own, He always has and He always will, but He will not respond to a crass church which seeks to gratify their own corrupt lusts. So all of the church’s that cry out for miracles, the Lord knows the motivations of their heart. Signs and wonders would follow. Follow what? The preaching of Calvary. The proclamation of the Truth. The bold witness for Christ. The unashamed stance of the one truly committed. The genuine love of the lost, expressed in practical terms. So, those who place the cart before the horse do so for a reason. And in doing so, they expose the fragile nature of the faith that they claim to have.
The Lord will not commit to those who have built their houses on sinking sand. This is why we see the “house,” of ”believers,” come tumbling down when faced with “unanswered prayers.” For they are not established on the solid Rock of Jesus Christ and the cross of Calvary. “On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.” Does your faith depend upon you seeing a miracle? Or does your faith stand upon the finished work of the cross of Calvary?
So, who are today’s “John 2,” believers? Who is it today that the Lord will not commit too? Who today run after signs and wonders? How many churches today, have as their main focus, signs and wonders? Show me a church whose main focus is on signs and wonders, and I will show you a church that neglects the central tenet of Christianity, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Show me a church whose main focus is on signs and wonders and I will show you are church where the majority reject “dying to self.” Show me a church whose main focus is on signs and wonders and I will show you a church with pseudo fellowship. The sinking sand of the modern Pentecostal church is their inordinate love of external signs.
This love of extraordinary manifestations, is a compensation for a lack of a true faith which would lead to the death of self. The end results of those who follow this path is a life of self-indulgence, an inability to adhere to sound doctrine, no change in their lives, and no fruit of the Holy Spirit. And so the few converts that they may see are converts after their own likeness, after there own shallowness. Tozer says that anemic Christians produce anemic converts. Bloodless Christians producing bloodless converts. Only by returning to the foot of the cross can the church find its way back to God. This evil and adulterous generation, that is without Lordship, needs to come to the cross of Christ and commit themselves to death.
Only by adhering to this sign, the sign of Jonah, can the Church of Christ hope to see a reformation of its powerless state. The Church today is caught in a great storm, and it is sinking. There is much noise as the Church thrashes in the heavy seas. As the Church began to sink, tossed from a boat carrying them in the wrong direction, they suddenly have found themselves enveloped in a great darkness that is devoid of light.
Here is the answer to the current crisis that the Church is in. When we realize that “I am cast of from your eyes,” we will finally ,” look towards your Holy Temple.”
If we as a Church will follow these words, we will live again in His presence………
Jonah 2:1-10 (KJV)
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish’s belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
I read what you wrote, but I fail to see your point. I'm talking about a revival in the 90's that produced fruit. No fruit is produced without the one who makes it grow. Not just "manifestations", though yes they are present. Not just energy, though yes it is exerted.
If your attack is against energy and manifestations, then you are attacking Jesus' ministry itself. If you are not, then you just used a lot of words with a very unclear point.
It seems you have made the assumption that every revival in the 90's was like Toronto, when you obviously know nothing of the people from the Smithton Outpouring (this is just the name that has been given to it). The people of this revival, and even the continuation of it in Kansas City, were and are sincerely in love with Christ.
I do not just mean the manifestations of Christ. The more we go to church, the deeper our love for His word, His ways, even His demands on our lives, grows within us. The truth is that God wants to change us "through the renewing of our minds" and we want that. We don't seek the "drunkeness" of Bentley. In fact, we cringe at the irreverence of the term. It appears that you have judged a movement by its name, or prejudged it by its energy. We don't just want the heights of outpouring, but also the depths of indwelling.
I would say that the people that I still know from Smithton are the most humble, teachable, repentant, mature people I have ever met. So please, if you want to make a ruling on what is or is not a revival, know your facts and don't just preached to me out of your ignorance of the subject (I do not say this as name calling, i do believe you are simply under informed).
Rhophi-
I am very acquainted with the Smithton Outpouring and resulting fruit and impact for the Kingdom of God. Any open minded person who actually was there, or is informed , will have no question that God met folks in a supernatural way in this town of less than 600 people in Missouri. It amazes me how some would dare to look at the fruit of genuine repentance, salvations, divine healings, Spirit baptisms, and yes, sometimes unique manifestations and label them as "from the devil". Dangerous ground to walk on. IMHO.
Rhophi...I also know you will find a great deal of persecution against what you know to be true.
It absolutely astounds me that those who scream the loudest to ,"Beware..there will be false miracles in the last days..we have been warned" and condemn almost all supernatural manifestation or emotional encounters as "demonic" never seem to be able to show any real miracles coming from God through their hands to compare it with. They do not manifest anything supernatural from God but rather condemn and slander those who do.
In that vein of theology the devil has the corner on healings, touching and refreshing people in their hearts, spirits, emotions, and bodies to full freedom in Christ Jesus. By their belief systems you would think the devil was the one who came to give life..not Jesus. Neither experience or scripture will support those oft voiced beliefs. However, you will be bombarded with it.
Amazing..almost all manifestations and miracles will be labeled as "demonic"..regardless of their fruit....and yet those who do so can not show any supernatural revelation at all to contrast it with.
2 Cor. 12:12 The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance. NIV
Mark 16:19-20 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and CONFIRMED HIS WORD BY THE SIGNS THAT ACCOMPANIED IT. NIV Caps Mine
A lack of confirming signs is a clear evidence that the word being preached has been compromised. This verse also clearly implies that the lack of confirming signs reveals that Jesus is not working with their message.
A can of worms...I know.
Blessings
Hi RH, lets just take your reply to me. You say that I was attacking. You came here asking for an opinion, and then you attack the opinion. I was giving you an overview of the 90s 'revivals," and those who endorsed them, that is all. Just general information. I talked about manipulation through music and personalities. I did not mention any "revival," in particular. We can have a good conversation or we can talk past each other. Perhaps you did not want an opinion at all? Is that possible?.........brother Frank
When someone asks, "What do you KNOW about (specific event)?", they are not asking for opinions on a general category. So, yes this is possible.
Solomon, what is your acquaintance with Smithton?
"So, yes this is possible." Well I am glad we cleared that up :) I will let you guys have at it :).........brother Frank
rophi:
I have had some fairly close contact with the Smithton group. I was at the original little church on several occasions, and what was happening there was, in my opinion, genuine and bore great fruit. There was an fervency, and expectancy, much repentance, and true joy that pervaded the place. Smithton was an out of the way bedroom community with not even a gas station. It was big news in town when a coin operated soda machine appeared at the old grain elevator in town. Vendors from Sedalia (the city west of Smithton where the Missouri state fair is held) began coming to town on weekends and setting up their hotdog and cotton candy booths on an empty lot selling to the people waiting in line to get into the services. At one point I recall coaxial cable running out the side door and two blocks down the street to a neighboring Methodist church building where a big screen was set up for overflow of people who could not get into the main building. The presence of God was there powerfully and I was blessed by it.
The group eventually moved to Kansas City and it is now World Revival Church. A former classmate of mine in College was born again and radically transformed through Smithton and I think still attends there. Another friend of mine here in the Joplin area used to attend there as well.
I do not know what has happened to the group now as I only visited world revival once in KC about 8 years ago. I have heard things here and there, but I try to never form opinions based on hearing things here and there. I pray God is still mightily at work there, but I do not know.
I would have to agree with bro. Frank, when the Isle of Lewis rival took place the people were forever changed.
I have never heard of the instance you are addressing here, but feel true revival leaves the people broken and healed and changed forever. They don't backslide when the tingles are gone. They have seen their own wretchedness and His fullness. Glory to God.
Good post Goldminer.
There is a grave epidemic among believers today: the inability to distinguish between spirit and soul. Many fantastic works we attribute to the Holy Spirit are in fact demonstrations of soul power in the name of Jesus. The determination between these two powers can be found in the the lasting quality of fruit. Where soulfruit is temporary -- meaning it lasts only as long as the outpouring and then slowly fizzles out -- spiritual fruit not only remains, but ripens to perfection with each new season. This is true even if God never again sends another revival or outpouring. But once an outpouring of soul is over, men are left looking for the next new high, the next new "outpouring", like storm chasers tracking a cyclone. A genuine encounter with the Holy Spirit, however, puts the cyclone within the chaser himself so that he no longer needs to seek out an extraneous spectacle.
This I know is a fact, and not just an opinion. I am not familiar with this particular outpouring (Smithton), but judging from what others have written I think this post may be helpful.
Bro. Paul
I have never heard of the instance you are addressing here, but feel true revival leaves the people broken and healed and changed forever. They don't backslide when the tingles are gone. They have seen their own wretchedness and His fullness. Glory to God.
I think at times I struggle even with the term "revival". To revive literally means to bring back to life. It implies life that has been lost and must be brought back. As I grew up in a typical church I, like many here can testify to, experienced the twice a year "revival" when the "man of God" came to town for a week of special services. I guess the goal was to bring life back into a body that had lost its life during the intervening six months. This was never God's intent.
If we allow the term revival to mean simply a move of the Spirit of God among His people, then I submit the following. True "revival" is not a corporate phenomenon, but an individual walk and as such should never be for a given time, but rather an ongoing walk in the Holy Spirit. We so often pray "for revival". But under the new covenant, God has poured out His Holy Spirit. We can be filled with the very Spirit of the living God. How much more revival do we need? We cry for God to come and bring the visitation of His Spirit. If I were God, I think I would be confused at that request. How much more visitation can we have than the indwelling and abiding presence of the Holy Spirit?
In the new covenant we are told to draw near to God and He will draw near to us. We are told to walk in the Spirit. I see not one example in the entirety of the New Testament of people gathering to cry out to God to visit them. I see men and women who were filled with the power and presence of the Holy Spirit moving in power as they took the good news of the gospel to the world.
What I do think we need is renewed commitment of our lives to the Lord so He can effectively use us. I don't think it is Gods "transmitter" that is broken but rather our "receivers" that need adjustment. When we are living and walking in the Spirit we are continually drawing from the life of God and continually walking in that life. Re-vival is not necessary.
When there are those great corporate moves of God, when churches or communities experience these things, some people remain plugged into what they have received, some fall by the wayside, and some were merely spectators and never plugged in to begin with. Unfortunately we too often look at the frailties and failures of men in these times and label the move of God as false, fruitless, emotional, etc., even though God may have radically transformed many people we do not see.
brother Paul,
good post as well, to wit:
"Spiritual fruit never spoils; it ripens to perfection with each new season of restoration. But once the soul revival is over, men look for the next new high, the next new "outpouring", like storm chasers tracking a cyclone."
thinking about such men as Evan Roberts, 26 year old Welshman used by God in the 1904 revival in Wales, he was so pressed out in travail, he "receded" into so called obscurity, which was really a private intercessory prayer ministry for the rest of his time on earth.
i read that dear Evan would be so wrought, and stricken up in the pulpit in those chapels in Wales, that he would PUBLICLY be stricken with a weeping ministry, as he cried to the Heavens, "bend us, O Lord, bend us".
contrast that with some of the "new manifestations of revival", and i speak of the TELEVISED spectacle of this "drunkeness", with folks acting out being inebriated, giggling and falling all over one another...and there's no comparison.
or as Duncan Campbell recounted, out there on the lonely crofts of the Hebridean Islands, hundreds of dear people, crying in the fields, "what must we do to saved?"...or in one instance, a young man, on his knees, on the side of the road, weeping, "hell is too good for me, hell is too good for me", as his mother held him, imploring God to "bring" her son in, that's just one example for the Hebridean Islands, in the early 1950's.
another exciting account of revival, again NOT televised, is within the diaries of David Brainerd, circa 1745, i believe, when God brought revival to the Crossweeksung Indians, that God sent this lonely young saint to. David was DYING of TB, and he's out there in the lonely frontier, eating corn mush, freezing in poor quarters, hacking his lungs out, blood on the snow, in the calling that God made on him to preach the Gospel to this one tribe of Indians in what is now modern day New Jersey. (i'm sitting outside and my copies of "Life of Brainerd" are upstairs, otherwise i'd quote what happened)...but some of the testimonies of converted Native Americans, are just...i cant grasp the right words, but the Godly sorrow, the grief, the repentance on the part of those dear souls.
though such testimonies and tales are not canonical, they are just awe inspring, the sweep of God's Love in revival, and when one ponders what you wrote, "men look for the next new high, the next new outpouring", it just fills me with shame, God forbid my heart be filled with such carnal longings.
i'm not insulting these dear people, nor putting them down, i know they're desperate for God, it's just might we be looking in the wrong "cupboard"? .......or when we ask for "Revival", be very careful what we ask for, it might not be all Holy Ghost thrill chills, and a whopping fun time in the Lord.
It might be tears of travail, and getting bended, possibly broken, changed forever, having to look at all the muck and mire of the cup, we might have to drink.
and thats not "fun", but neither was the Cross, can we pay the price of revival, can we trusted with Revival?
much love and grace to you in Christ, neil
with my post to Paul below, did i, in NO way mean to cast any scorn upon what God wrought at Smithton.
didnt mean that at all. i might be dumb, but i'm not stupid.
i praise God for every soul swept into the Kingdom of Heaven through the Ministry of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.
so please forgive me, if it seemed like i was deriding what happened at Smithton.
i wish someone wrote the accounting of What God did there, i so love to read of Moves of God, and missionary accounts/journals.
neil
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