We were reconciled to God before repentance

i am not arguing what you say, although one could "read in" you are saying repentance is not needed... I hope you do not meen that, but more important I think you are missing the "great" truth for the smaller one in this passage, the "great" truth is not that he loved us even when we where sinners, to me it is the latter part "much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His Life."

If Christ death can give us reconciliation with God, how much more do we get from Christ life! MUCH MORE.... so what we should strive to seek out since we are saved, what is this much more we should be saved from once we are reconciled with God, much more.... amazing words.

Don't know what you're trying to say Tuc, but that Subject title alone sends chills up & down my spine. What comes to my mind is "How can 2 walk together unless they agree?".... I believe in both the free-will of man, & the sovereignty of God.

You should read Except Ye Repent but Harry Ironside great book that is availible free to read online.

What's your definition of "reconciled to God"?

Many verses speak of repentance as very necessary for salvation, I will list a few, the problem i think is when we try and make salvation within a fixed box. I am sure some believed , repented in that order, some may had the other way around. I think so many try "systemaize" to much and have a perfect understanding and order of divine things that are beyond our full comprehension. As is salvation, that God reconciled us to to when we still where sinners i dont think anyone will argue against. But i think salvation is a very broad thing, its spoken of in three differnet tenses in scripture, past , present and future. So one could say its a "process" in one way, and in anther sense it is set and foreknown by God and he determined his Son to come and die for us whie we yet where sinners.

but some scriptures that no doubt say repentence is needed to be saved are these.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

one could argue that if you do not continue to live in continual repentance, you might not be saved in a future tense even tho you in a past tense have been saved, some scripture seem to suggest that possibility. And these are just a few scriptures amongst many more speaking of repentance as something essential, saying repentence is not "needed" would be heresy when looking at classical historic christianity.

I do not think the sequence of salvation is the most important, as long as you can see that all "ingredients" are there, then what occurs first second and third is not an important issue, as long as you clearly can see all in place, my experience that i for my self also see in scripture is it can differ from person to person, some seem to have been agonizing in repentance for weeks before coming to believe. Others believed and later repented afterwards. Paul the apostle did not repent before he meet the Lord, others the Lord meet seem to have had faith before they meet and afterwards repented and was "saved".

So i think it is not wise to systematize salvation to much, and absolutely not say repentance is not needed, if you are making a bread and leave out a ingredient you will not get the right bread, if you leave out the necessity of repentance you will get the easy belivism we are cursed with today. Jesus preached repentance, the Apostles Preached repentance, and so should we.

brother Christian

Hey Tuc,

Was just thinking about statements such as where John the Baptist said, 'Except you repent you shall all likewise perish' and also the frequent command given to people whenever the message of Christ was preached was: 'Repent and believe the gospel'. So it seemed like 'repenting and believing the gospel' were usually spoken of in the same breath.

Are you thinking of it in terms of the word 'repent' meaning something other than turning from individual sins/sinful lifestyle. So instead 'repent' would be more of an expression for a general turning away from 'reliance/faith on our self and our own works' towards 'reliance/faith in the work of Christ on the cross' ? I have sometimes seen people make a distinction in that way, as to what the word 'repentance' means.

God bless you :)

In Jesus,
John

This statement somehow goes along with Tuc believing that Christian's do not have a sinful nature; correct tuc? so perhaps we'd understand better what he's saying from that perspective.

Additionally, Tuc, what you said reminds me of universal salvation belief (eventually all of mankind will be reconciled to God) {this was one of my many bandwagons in 33 years} and had the Lord not been on my side and brought me out, I'd still be there.

Your statement below reminds me of that belief; example:

I never said that repentance is not important, but it is true that repentance is not needed to be reconciled with God.

I'm sorry if my own previous experience has led me down a wrong road with your statement but I couldn't help but see similarities. Are you somehow involved with believing in universal salvation? (or any other name it's called?)

God bless you,
Lisa

I checked out the word reconciled in the NT and found this in 2Corinthians 5:17-21 NASB:

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

From this scripture we read where God made the first moves to reconcile people to himself. It is the up to the individual to complete the process by accepting this reconciliation.

The idea of reconciliation is always two persons who are at war with each other, coming together in an agreement of what was, what should be and working to this end.

Nothing can be added to the finished work of Jesus Christ. "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8).

But that does not nullify faith or repentance in the life of the believer. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6).

When a Christian sins, his fellowship with God is broken. This fellowship is restored through repentance, and the confession of sin. Until we receive our glorified bodies there will always be the need for repentance.

"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1st John 1:5-10).

Mike