Legalism and revival/holiness

Holiness is imparted life, an impartation which happens in fellowship with the Lord.Holiness cannot be produced by man. Man’s product in this realm is dead activity –legalism if you like.Holiness is a gift from God. Dead works is mans efforts to buy, or copy, what is for free.Revival is revelation, a restful exploration of God’s grace.Lars

Hi sister Geraldine ...Ha! ... ha! ... So our Lord has introduced you to brother Ravenhill huh? ... You said it right, your life has been changed by that reading, and you'll never be the same again ... Ravenhill's writings, like Wilkerson's sermons, have a way of catapulting one from lukewarm, staus-quo, spiritual complacency, into diligently seeking God ... The same thing happened to me after i read Ravenhill's "The Refiners Fire" ... Legalist is a label you're gonna hear in reference to yourself a lot from now on, because the Holy Spirit will begin to use you to prick the consciences of your fellow believers ... It'll be the Holy Ghost, but they'll blame you, so concider it all joy ... AmenOne of the things i love Ravenhill for is his quips, of which this is one ... - WHEN THERE’S SOMETHING IN THE BIBLE THAT CHURCHES DON’T LIKE, THEY CALL IT "LEGALISM … L.R.Both Ravenhill and Wilkerson are not legalist, for they both understand that in order for a Christian to be most effective we've got to be holy, pure, peculiar, for without purity there is no power ... As Ravenhill and Wilkerson i too believe in holiness ... in purity ... and attempt to practice both not out of attempting to show God what a great guy i am, as they both speak against, but rather as both men of God to exemplify just how much i love, and appreciate Him for His so loving me ... So no, understood in it's proper context, seeking holiness is not legalism, but a proper God pleasing response to His love ... Legalism (to me) is to primarily rely upon the keeping of any law(s) to make one righteous in God’s eyes, instead of faith in Christ. If all one focuses on is obedience to law (and this is most important) apart from the motivation of pleasing God, loving God, and loving neighbor, this distorts the purpose of the law (Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10) and is legalism ... To me, if love is not the core motivation in anything that a Christian does, we need a conviction check quick, fast and in one Holy Ghost hurry!If we believe that any keeping of God’s law can earn our salvation as our reward, we are guilty of legalism. Technical obedience, or strict obedience to the exact letter of the law while searching for ways to get around the underlying purpose and intent of the law, is legalism.Proper obedience is not legalism, but as scripture points out is our "reasonable service" ...Rom.12[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.Jesus Christ and the remainder of the Bible make one thing perfectly clear: Proper obedience to the law of God is not legalism, but an indication of just how much love in return we have for our Father who loved us so much that He sent His Son, and His Son came and died for us that we might attain "so great a salvation"! ... This truth alone should be enough to motivate the Christian to repentance from dead works ... But alas sometimes it's not, and the following article will explain just why ...What Is Legalism?by David A. DePrahttp://www.pghfamily.net/goodnews/Feb01-1.htmHope this is of some help ...Bro. R

I play alot of games. football, baseball, basketball.boxing. knowing the rules doesn't make me a ref. or a ring judge. But it sure helps to know how to play the game and run the race. Paul says we must run according to the rules or be disqualified, so knowing the rules don't mean that we are legalistic, just good and mindful players of the greatest game in the universe.look at what we win "Even eternal Life"

I wondered if anyone else experiences these problems and how we/i can overcome them. It's just very hard as i don't have anyone else to approach with this and i don't wish to offend anyone.Am i making any sense?Just by my mentioning any sort of obvious sin, I have been repeatedly called "judgmental" among christian fellowships. It is strange that even mentioning any sort of sins, people get offended. I don't understand it, I know the heart of God is for His children to recieve instruction and correction, because He disciplines those He loves. Keep doing what is right, Jesus has comforting words "blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."As we seek to pursue and know God more, it seems we become less and less popular. We have God. Be of good cheer. He is worth it. Keep close to Him and His words, even during hardships, misunderstandings, and persecutions. I have been mocked and seen others mocked for speaking truth, those times of testing are great faithbuilders, helps you know Jesus' sufferings more.

Hi Geraldine,I am becoming increasingly amazed at the grace of God, to expose a truth at the perfect time. Just today, a thought came to me, which I was going to post. Amazingly, it is a practicle answer to your question.What is a christian?A christian is one who has realised that he is not perfect.Not stopping there, he accepts the fact that he cannot be perfect.In spite of this, he refuses to consider the possibility that he is absolved from the responsability of being perfect.As a result, he trusts that he can be made perfect...by the only one who can do it.This pondering came about, whilst listening th Major Ian Thomas' Timlessness of God, however it is really the product of exploring the teachings of Ray Comfort, Norman Grubb, David Wilerson, Paris Reidhead, Art Katz, Keith Daniel, Dan Stone, Leonard Ravenhill, J Edwin Orr, Charles Finney, amongst others. Something that I have began to notice, that is emerging in the Body of Christ at the moment (which is not a new thing), is a "civil war" of sorts bewteen the "Holiness" and "Christ Life" camps. I myself particularly leaned more on the holiness side of the fence, with my "flaggeling" myself with the 10 commandments, Finney's 3rd chapter of Lectures, Pratney's teachings and the like, feeling utterly condemned by the fact that I couldn't attain to the standards set before me.Many "Holiness" preachers seem to imply that a kind of "sinless perfection" can be attained. This can give the notion that any kind of sinful action, would imply that one is not a true christian, and therefore should either "get right" or "get out". "Christ Life" preachers seem to imply that we need to simply accepts the fact that we sin, and that we can't change a thing.The reality that I have found, is the God is not the God or "either/or" but the God of "yes/and" (not my words, but my sentiment). The realitie is that "Holiness" can only come about by the "Christ Life".Gal 2:20 is the answer, and 1 John 1:9 is the meathod. Essentially, the only way we can be holy, is to step aside, and let Christ live our life through us (Gal 2:20). We do this by openly admiting and accepting the fact (confessing) that we sin (1 John 1:9). The nature of sin is the result of the fall (we, had we been there, we would have been a part of), which was caused by coventousness (the desire to have something, which is outside of our rights). The decision to sin, is the result of our choice. The continuance of sin is the result of our slavery to it. Our deliverance from sin comes through the cross.Personally, this applies like this, I have an anger problem. Rather than suppressing it, or denying it's existance, I accept it as part of my nature (because I allowed it into my life, not because it was always there). I turn to Jesus and ask Him to take the reigns that connect to the "bridle" that I put on myself (James 1:26), knowing that it is out of my control (James 3:8).My obligation, is to realise the fact that it is out of me control, which I do by studying to show myself (dis)approved. Once I realise the "exceeding sinfullness of sin", God gives me the faith to receive His grace in that area.This is really only scrating the surface, the point being, the "Holiness/Revival" message, has nothing to do with how good we are, but how good we allow Christ to be in us.On a personal note, I mentioned earlier Gal 2:20 -I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.If your like me, meditation on the implications of the highlighted portions, will really drive home the words on Leonard Ravenhill's tombstone, "Is what your living for worth Christ dying for".

Oh...btw in regard to specific sin, all sin in it's raw form, is coverteousness. Chew on that on for awhile. :-)

Just by my mentioning any sort of obvious sin, I have been repeatedly called "judgmental" among christian fellowships. It is strange that even mentioning any sort of sins, people get offended. This is true. I find that even if I talk about growing and changing (which I guess convicts some people who are not really wanting to grow and change right now) they will say, "well, it's all a process..." and I know they mean, "Maybe when I feel like it, I'll let the Lord change me".Yes, it is a process, a lifelong process- but I'd like to see some sweat on their brow as they run this race! :-P Aaron, I think you have really touched on something here too. We can't become holy by trying or by following any set list of rules. We become holy only because He is holy. So, as we let Him become more of Him in us, we will become holy. He is our holiness. If we desire to be holy we will continue to lay our "selves" aside and let Him be Him in us. The work here is laying "self" down and surrendering- and yes, this can be hard work. Sometimes we have to kick ourselves in the tail and say "It is not about me- it's about Him."The church we have been attending is a Sovereign Grace church and they are really big on "growing and changing". That sanctification is a process but christians should always be moving forward in this process. Many of my past christians friends and family would go there and consider it legalistic- mostly because they don't want to be reminded or told that they should get up out their comfortable chairs (where they are) and grow into Christ-likeness. They don't want to be told to give up self and that,yes, God requires this. I would much rather please God and know I am traveling down my narrow path that He has for me AND be called legalistic- than to please men and risk not glorifying the Lord.The more we all grow and change into His image, the more persecution (by the religious) we will have. This is a funny thought because a few years ago, I thought the persecution we would be getting would be from the world. But now I see that is wrong. Just as in Jesus' day, it comes from the religious. The religious will spit on you and turn against you and want you crucified. The hurting in the world may listen to you and welcome you because you have love and answers. Sorry so long.Satisfied in Him alone, Chanin

I'm reminded of this verse which is often quickened to me. James 5:16(a) Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.I prayed in front of a church the other day and as I was praying the Holy Spirit quickened me and I began to repent for a specific sin publicly. The pastor after the service was joking about it. Is there anything funny about that? I don't think so. Fortunately for me my time is very limited in that place.There's no way we can walk in the flesh and have Jesus at the same time. That's the battle I'm in now. The Holy Spirit gave me a simple verse a few weeks ago "Remember Lot's wife." There is no way God will allow us to walk in sin and walk with Him at the same time.The days of cheap grace are ending very soon...

Gideons posted;Quote;"The days of cheap grace are ending very soon..."Amen, to be replaced by God's awful grace, judgment ...But thank God that even His judgment is grace, for even His disciplines is out of love ... God (in everything) is LOVE.

I agree Geraldine, there are some excellent replies here.What is a christian?A christian is one who has realised that he is not perfect.Not stopping there, he accepts the fact that he cannot be perfect.In spite of this, he refuses to consider the possibility that he is absolved from the responsability of being perfect.As a result, he trusts that he can be made perfect...by the only one who can do it.Ah yes! And there it seems we can get bogged down under a weight of words and misconceptions and alternate meanings, defining words in the likeness of modern day collective assumptions. Which is what constantly drives me in a backwards motion, back to meaning and why I am rather fond of ye old Websters Dictionary of 1828, seems there was less tampering in those days...LegalityLEGAL'ITY, n.1. Lawfulness; conformity to law.2. In theology, a reliance on works for salvation.HolyHO'LY, a.1. Properly, whole, entire or perfect, in a moral sense. Hence, pure in heart, temper or dispositions; free from sin and sinful affections. Applied to the Supreme Being, holy signifies perfectly pure, immaculate and complete in moral character; and man is more or less holy, as his heart is more or less sanctified, or purified from evil dispositions. We call a man holy,when his heart is conformed in some degree to the image of God, and his life is regulated by the divine precepts. Hence, holy is used as nearly synonymous with good, pious, godly.Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Pet 1.2. Hallowed; consecrated or set apart to a sacred use, or to the service or worship of God; a sense frequent in Scripture; as the holy sabbath; holy oil; holy vessels; a holy nation; the holy temple; a holy priesthood.3. Proceeding from pious principles,or directed to pious purposes; as holy zeal.4. Perfectly just and good; as the holy law of God.5. Sacred; as a holy witness.Holy of holies, in Scripture, the innermost apartment of the Jewish tabernacle or temple, where the ark was kept,and where no person entered, except the high priest, once a year.Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, the Divine Spirit; the third person in the Trinity; the sanctifier of souls.Holy war, a war undertaken to rescue the holy land, the ancient Judea, from the infidels; a crusade; an expedition carried on by christians against the Saracens in the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries; a war carried on in a most unholy manner.HolinessHO'LINESS, n.[from holy.] The state of being holy; purity or integrity of moral character; freedom from sin; sanctity. Applied to the Supreme Being, holiness denotes perfect purity or integrity of moral character, one of his essential attributes.Who is like thee, glorious in holiness? Exo 15.1. Applied to human beings, holiness is purity of heart or dispositions; sanctified affections; piety; moral goodness, but not perfect.We see piety and holiness ridiculed as morose singularities.2. Sacredness; the state of any thing hallowed, or consecrated to God or to his worship; applied to churches or temples.3. That which is separated to the service of God.Israel was holiness unto the Lord. Jer 2.4. A title of the pope, and formerly of the Greek emperors.PerfectPER'FECT, a. [L. perfectus, perficio, to complete; per and facio, to do or make through, to carry to the end.]1. Finished; complete; consummate; not defective; having all that is requisite to its nature and kind; as a perfect statue; a perfect likeness; a perfect work; a perfect system.As full, as perfect in a hair as heart.2. Fully informed; completely skilled; as men perfect in the use of arms; perfect in discipline.3. Complete in moral excellencies.Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. Mat 5.4. Manifesting perfection.My strength is made perfect in weakness. 2 Cor 12.Perfect chord,in music, a concord or union of sounds which is perfectly coalescent and agreeable to the ear, as the fifth and the octave; a perfect consonance.A perfect flower, in botany, has both stamen and pistil, or at least another and stigma.Perfect tense, in grammar, the preterit tense; a tense which expresses an act completed.PER'FECT, v.t. [L. perfectus, perficio.] To finish or complete so as to leave nothing wanting; to give to any thing all that is requisite to its nature and kind; as, to perfect a picture or statue. 2 Chr 8.-Inquire into the nature and properties of things, and thereby perfect our ideas of distinct species.If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4.1. To instruct fully; to make fully skillful; as, to perfect one's self in the rules of music or architecture; to perfect soldiers in discipline. PerfectionPERFEC'TION, n.[L. perfectio.] The state of being perfect or complete, so that nothing requisite is wanting; as perfection in an art or science; perfection in a system of morals.1. Physical perfection, is when a natural object has all its powers, faculties or qualities entire and in full vigor, and all its parts in due proportion.2. Metaphysical or transcendental perfection, is the possession of all the essential attributes or all the parts necessary to the integrity of a substance. This is absolute,where all defect is precluded, such as the perfection of God; or according to its kind, as in created things.3. Moral perfection, is the complete possession of all moral excellence, as in the Supreme Being; or the possession of such moral qualities and virtues as a thing is capable of.4. A quality, endowment or acquirement completely excellent, or of great worth.In this sense, the word has a plural.What tongue can her perfections tell?5. An inherent or essential attribute of supreme or infinite excellence; or one perfect in its kind; as the perfections of God. The infinite power, holiness,justice, benevolence and wisdom of God are denominated his perfections.6. Exactness; as, to imitate a model to perfection.-----------------------------------------This may end up getting rather long, but there are so many ties in what the Lord has been showing me lately and as the case often is and as our sister alluded to, that 'sameness' in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, seems beyond coincidence.From Clarkes Commentary; (By the way, all this refrence material including the dictionary is from http://www.e-sword.net/ a tremendous resource)Mat 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect - as your Father - God himself is the grand law, sole giver, and only pattern of the perfection which he recommends to his children. The words are very emphatic, εσεσθε ουν υμεις τελειοι, Ye shall be therefore perfect - ye shall be filled with the spirit of that God whose name is Mercy, and whose nature is love. God has many imitators of his power, independence, justice, etc., but few of his love, condescension, and kindness. He calls himself Love, to teach us that in this consists that perfection, the attainment of which he has made both our duty and privilege: for these words of our Lord include both a command and a promise.“Can we be fully saved from sin in this world?” is an important question, to which this text gives a satisfactory answer: “Ye shall be perfect, as your Father, who is in heaven, is perfect.” - As in his infinite nature there is no sin, nothing but goodness and love, so in your finite nature there shall dwell no sin, for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus shall make you free from the law of sin and death, Rom_8:2. God shall live in, fill, and rule your hearts; and, in what He fills and influences, neither Satan nor sin can have any part. If men, slighting their own mercies, cry out, This is impossible! - whom does this arguing reprove - God, who, on this ground, has given a command, the fulfillment of which is impossible. “But who can bring a clean out of an unclean thing?” God Almighty - and, however inveterate the disease of sin may be, the grace of the Lord Jesus can fully cure it; and who will say, that he who laid down his life for our souls will not use his power completely to effect that salvation which he has died to procure. “But where is the person thus saved?” Wherever he is found who loves God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength, and his neighbor as himself; and, for the honor of Christianity and its Author, may we not hope there are many such in the Church of God, not known indeed by any profession of this kind which they make, but by a surer testimony, that of uniformly holy tempers, piety to God, and beneficence to man?That verse in bold stood out as it came across again this morning in this; Ravenhill presents SparksTaken from,THE SCHOOL OF CHRIST By T. Austin SparksPardon my gushing forth from this, it just has to go somewhere...I guess dear sister that as others have stated here it really is a misconception. It is an inner working of the heart, not a putting on for show, something to laud over others or a points reward system. It's a following hard after the Lord out of love not obligation.Aaron, loved that Ravenhill quote. Another favorite even with the seeming sarcasm.."If you are going to get mature in God all the dwarfs around you will criticize and sneer at you and say 'Your trying to be holier than the rest of us, ah?"If all else fails... :-P

I think there is a link between holiness and legalism. In times of the fulness of God's Spirit at work among the saints a level of life emerges which is beyond what has been known previously. It occurs too in the life of the individual; an ease in prayer, bible reading, walking before God etc which is quite different to what has been experienced previously.Whenever the fires begin to die down in corporate or individual experience there is a tendency to try to hold to the new standards of life enjoyed in the power of the Spirit. The instinct is to bolster the new level of life with rules to ensure that nothing is lost. I have long observed in my church history reading that holiness movements are most prone to legalism when the fires begin to die down. What was a simple, instinctive way of love degenerates into a list of standards; skirt-lengths, the amount of gold worn... all become the standard which must not be lost, although actually it was never 'achieved'.So I think there is sometimes some justification in those who judge 'holiness' movements to be 'legalistic', but in truth it is smouldering holiness movements and individuals which become legalistic rather than those where the fire still burns.The next question is which is 'normal Christianity'? The revived state or the needing to be revived state? The fire or the smoke?

I think it's interesting that Ravin and Chanin are talking about sporting competition. Paul says we must run according to the rules or be disqualified, so knowing the rules don't mean that we are legalistic, just good and mindful players of the greatest game in the universe.Volleyball has always been my sport. In real Volleyball, they have a word for games where people do not observe the rules. It's called "Jungleball". People like to hedge on the rules because it's easier to win that way, you know, cheating. A scripture comes to mind: "I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber."My experience has been, since God has been leading me into the truths concerning righteousness and true holiness, I only have 2 people in my circle of Christian friends, who don't think I'm off in the ditch. I have one friend who is actually ahead of me on this path, and my daughter who is close on my heels. That is what I am doing here at SI. I am seeking like-minded brethren to fellowship with and provoke me to faith and good works. Many of the Christian friends I used to fellowship with, they don't call me anymore. I think this is normal. Remember Christian in "Pilgrim's Progress"? He didn't have much support in his quest for the Celestial City. Press on, Dear Sister, press on! Though none go with me, still I will follow.I live in the South. I'm not much of a Southern Gospel fan, but there is one song I really like. It's called, I Got My Foot On The Rock. The chorus goes like this:I've got my foot on the rock and my mind's made up.Though I walk through the lonely valley and I drink from a bitter cup.When the devil comes a knockin showin me an easier way.I stand right square on my feet, I throw my head in the air, I look him straight in the eye, I say my foot's on the Rock and my mind's made up!Oh Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it's interesting that Ravin and Chanin are talking about sporting competition.Well I see as one who would strive for the goal. It is written by one far wiser than myself."Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now THEY do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but WE an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under, my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." I Cor. 9:24-27.

Geraldine,In my recent experiences in this pilgramage, "legalism" is the product of "knowing about" something, without "knowing" it. In other words, know what we ought to do, but not doing it. When this happens, we tend to take on the role of Talkative, in Pilgrims Progress, by either paroting off what God's telling us to do, to everyone else while saying "I know it's hard but..." or pretending to be obedient, when really where stubbonly rebellious.If I'm honest, I visit this place regularly. It's a place of terror, which leads to Godly sorrow (if God's grace allows), which eventually brings repentance. Many a motivational speaker will say, "Change will occur, when the desire for change exceeds the desire for status-quo." Sometimes we have to realise that we are our own biggest enemy, and a henchman of satan in his war against God....and us.Just a thought.