http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv5fI2asNqg&feature=related
Trinity in the Old Testament
Most interesting to me was his verses dealing with the angel of the lord in the old testament.
thoughts?
There is no trinity in the Old Testament, or New for that matter. Can you tell i am not a trinitarian?
Farhan Qureshi Makes a salient point in stating Sam Shamoun is being both implicit and ambiguous. Farhan is right that Sam is treading in territory best reserved for those who understand the archaic languages with the mindset from which they come. Farhan has every reason to ignore Sam's rhetoric beyond this point, because if my God were implicit and ambigous, the contradiction through these two things would make God both I AM and I AM NON.
Man is implicit and ambigous and God is not. To say that He is would be to make God into man's image. Westerner's get hung up on personification and anthropomorphization when it comes to God, possibly through memetic development and the influence of greek philosophy and/or rhetoric?????
Oriental and Occidental thought in many ways are like two streams flowing in opposite directions.
Sam stating that "God is One" makes little sense to him proves which side of the window he is on. He needs to do better research and learn from those looking out from inside, i.e., Rabbinical sources, rather than spouting off about what he sees from the outside looking in.
Anyway, it's known several here believe that God is trinity per what they have been taught and perhaps Sam's singled out 'ambigous implicit allegorical metaphors'.
Well, let's just look at some of the more obvious --but hardly all the-- manifestations of HIS spirit from the Old and New testament:
1. A hen (Gen. 1)
2. An angel ( of various representations)
3. A blasting furnace
4. A cloud
5. A pillar of fire
6. A dove
7. Cloven tongues of fire
8. The sound of a mighty rushing wind
9. A voice
Now let's add the personages of God as Jesus recognized:
10. The Father
11. The Son
This makes God an Undecanity.
Catch the drift?
The debate being watched on YouTube was quit with for the above reasons and what you will read below:
Having searched the scriptures from A through what's Zed, listening to debate after debate, reading historic development, and reading articles about the trinitarian concept, the final conclusion has been come to:
God is One Elohim as in Father and Son, the same form and substance and purpose. HE manifests HIS spirit through whatever physical avenue He deems appropriate, Jesus being God's revelation of God to man, for there is no other name that does save. When we have the Son, we have the Father. Although the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, they are exactly the same as one another.
God says my people shall know my name. We are given the personal names of both our Father and our Brother, His Son, in the Old Testament.
There is no personal name for God's spirit. In the New Testament we see the adjective 'holy' and the impersonal noun 'spirit' . Can you explain this in relation to God's promise that we, HIS people, know HIS name???
Shalom,
g
p.s. In Hebrew, God manifests through four specific aspects. As well, in Hebrew, man who is created in His image and likeness is a four aspect being ...not three.
p.s.s. i'm still rooting for Sam!
God says my people shall know my name. We are given the personal names of both our Father and our Brother, His Son, in the Old Testament. There is no personal name for God's spirit. In the New Testament we see the adjective 'holy' and the impersonal noun 'spirit' . Can you explain this in relation to God's promise that we, HIS people, know HIS name???
Not knowing the name of the Holy Spirit does not exclude him from elohim that would be an eisigetical mistake on our parts to make such an assumption. Elohim existed before man knew the father or even the Sons name. Baptism is in the NAME OF THE FATHER , AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
the term "and of" the Holy Spirit implicitly implies the Holy Spirit does indeed have a name simply JHVH(in my opinion).
AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
AND =kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; [and, also], even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.
HOLY =hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
SPIRIT =pnyoo'-mah
a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or ***(divine) God****, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.
pnyoo'-mah in the spiritual sense can be angel,demon or divine God.
from Hebrews 2 we know that the spirit of Christ can not be the spirit of an angel. We certainly know it can not be a demon. Which leave only one logical conclusion as to the nature of Christ spirit. The only option we are left with after elimination is Divine God which is supported by scripture.
I think of it as knowing someones surname or family name but not knowing the first name. There are allot references to the Holy Spirit being God in the new testament to choose from so ill leave that for another thread
the question of the promise of knowing his name is misleading. From the very beginning God has progressively being revealing himself to his people. in Genesis 1 he was elohim it wasnt to later he revealed himself as I AM. Later we see the Son manifested in the flesh and revealed as Jesus Christ. Father , son and spirit are JHVH. Think about this is Gods name the same on the other side of eternity? When God promised we would know his name when do you think this promised is fully fulfilled?
In the olden days english names like smith, gardener, carpenter etc were most likely derived by the "Family" characteristics or occupation. God has progressively revealed himself. He is what he is and will be what he will be.
The Holy Spirit came upon marry and what was conceived was the manifested son of God. If the Holy Spirit did not possess JHVH DNA then why did the father send the Spirit to come upon mary to conceive Jesus?
1. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit does not have a separate will and personality to the Father and Son?
2. If you say the Holy Spirit is not God then what scriptural evidence do you have to back this up. Does it say anywhere that the Holy Spirit is just an angel and not God.
3.We all know el-o-heem' is plural* el-o-heem says come let US make man in OUR own image.
How could God say "let us", "in our own image" if Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not share in his divine nature and essense?
In creation we can see that the holy Spirit was present and active. We see later on in the bible Jesus was also present and everything that was made was made through him and we know the father was present. el-o-heem' can also a times be used for angels but in the context of genesis only three persona's (eloheem) were present.
When elohim was speaking in Genesis do you think he was speaking in aramaic or hebrew? JHVH is a hebrew name for the supreme being when we get to eternity and have the lords name stamped on our foreheads what language will it be written in.
will we all be speaking Hebrew or Aramaic in heaven? of for that matter will things be written in those Aramaic in heaven?
Rainman,
...not to put you off...
(If there is time later in the day, your post will be answered here directly.)
however, seeing the questions popping up, it is hoped that you will consider this in relation to phone calls recieved, Matt's PM and your post, just because this was posted. (i never realized all the people reading what is written from here.
What follows is in explanation to you and the others giving better details (though hardly complete) as to why the trinitarian view is not touted here.
Brothers and Sisters,
What bred or camp am i?
i am one who says that if it does not say it in the Bible it is extrabiblical at best, and is more than likely laced with falsehood, if not completely false.
It's not known that i am of any camp per se. i do not fit any mold, though most at home amongst those who are not all about arguing doctrinal correctness
and rather spend alot of time praising our Father and Jesus in worshipping and service , both in gatherings and away from them.
(i was raised within Protestantism as most here. Several Denominations could be named from over the years, but grew up in 'evangelical findamentalistic congregations', often with just a tinge of liturgical orthodoxy.)
Where God's Spirit say go or do is done here. Currently, the LORD is being served in a congregation that is independent, the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation, proclaiming Jesus, the Christ, crucified, entombed, ressurected and coming again to reign with justice towards the living and the dead.
All the doctrine we all know and believe, that speaks for me too, is piecemeal at best, and often we speak things we do not understand though we think we do. (God uses us in spite of our lack. The willing and obedient, who tremble at God's Word is where His eye looks regarding us humans. Our perfection by Him for Him comes in the process of this ...as well as chastening when we just do not, (or will not willingly,) satisfy Him.
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Details are usually not gone into with many because it could confuse and cause dissention or division.
Of what is spoken and written, is becoming a more and more often thing of what i am told to say when and hardly ever has there been a time when that reaches beyond the basics of Bible exegesis. Glory to God! Some question further, yet the Lord has stopped me from answering
[as they do not even have the basics (we all can agree on) down pat],
or that spirit of inquiry is most often not of the Lord. (This calls for discerning.)
There is alot i don't know but that will never stop me from seeking to know Him further, moreso by experience relative with the Bible than anything else.
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It was not until after 315 A.D. that the concept of trinity was invented, through the work of two theologians who did alot to apostacize the church triumphant: Origen and Turtillian. Before this time, considering God's spirit as a being seperate from the Godhead,i.e., Father and Son did not exist. It resulted from integrating paganism and greek mindset into Hebrew thought and the scriptures.
(The New Catholic Theological Dictionary in the article "Trinity" did me a world of good in researching -- several doctrines that just have not seemed fitting to what God has done within me and throughout this life.)
Have you ever noticed in the Bible, that there are no prayers to the Holy Spirit? If He is a distinct person seperate from our Father and Brother, then why not?
Have you ever wondered why the (Holy) Spirit is at times referred to either it or He in the greek?
From the influx of this greek Biblical worldview, the ideological system of beliefs in macrocosm have influenced the trend of world thought today, 'christian' or not. So, first, for the westerized mind, let's look at it from that perspective:
1. God created man in His image and likeness.
2. Man is spirit conjoined with a body and active results are from the quickening soul through this union.
(You cannot seperate the spiritual from our flesh, or there is no expression from our soul in the earth.)
3. Being in the likeness of God, we understand that God is spirit and He uses His soul through His physical...
--creation--
in expressing Himself to us (on our level of understanding).
Without going into too much detail, in John 14-16 we read Jesus speaking of this spirit in the third person and in Revelation we see the Lamb of God (Jesus) having the --not one but-- 7 spiritS of God.
In John Jesus is speaking third person, not only because He had emptied Himself in becoming man and speaking as a man (so the spirit of God was UPON Him in fullness and not of Him in presence), but because this was a future tense event as well.
Since Jesus has the 7 spirits of God, and this, the Lamb of God is holy, then who would be the Holy Spirit, whether expressed through one or all seven?
In the New Testament, we read of the Spirit of God referred to as:
- The Holy Spirit (impersonal Noun w/qualifiying adjective)
- The Spirit (whether it or He)
- The Comforter/Advocate, Spirit of... (abstracted impersonal nouns from action verbs)
-"The Spirit of" Christ, " " the Lord (impersonal noun w/title attached)
Now who could all these things covered be referring to???
"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
II Cor. 3.17-18
Shalom,
g
How profitable are debates?
Years ago Bob Harrington used to debate Madelyn Murray O'Hare. Madelyn remained an atheist still and Bob? Today he is more of a motivational speaker then an evangelist. Who profited from those debates? I do not know but I do know Romans 1:29 mentions debate among other sins...
I am well aware the early Anabaptists - before they were called such - used to have many discussions with the reformers on doctrinal issues. Did anyone ever convince the other side to the rightness of their positions? I never read where this was considered an effective tool in convincing their distractors. But a life lived was a far more effective witness.
Do these debates settle any questions or do they fuel them for those who work to justify perversion of the Truth?
Observations
1. The book of revelation is a book of prophesy relating to the ends times and maters of eschatology. The fact that 7 Spirits of God were mentioned is not to be used in contradicting prior teachings of the holy spirit within the gospels and the epistles. The book of revelation conatins alegorical symbolism that relate to end time eschatology. Extrapulating doctrine from revalation on the Holy Spirit will lead to an unscriptural eisegesis.
The scripture is quiet clear about the Spirit being a person
Jesus said HE will not SPEAK of HIS own BUT only what HE HEARS
He possesses a mind a will and emotions that scripture demonstrates.
Impersonal Holy Spirit ?
Can an impersonal Spirit be Grieved and offended?
Eph 4:30 "but loo-peh'-o [greieve] not the Holy Spirit of God"
loo-peh'-o
to distress; reflexively or passively to be sad: - cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow (-ful), be (make) sorry.
2. Blaspemy
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you,All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
blas-fay-me'-ah
vilification (especially against God): - blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.
Jesus was clearly God but he said the most unforgiveable of act of blasphemy was against the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy spirt was impersonal how can he be blasphemed against?
Did the apostle peter say the Holy Spirit was God?
Acts 5:4-10 (New International Version)
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the HOLY SPIRIT and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? YOU HAVE NOT LIED TO MEN BUT TO GOD."
5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?""Yes," she said, "that is the price."9Peter said to her, " HOW COULD YOU AGREE TO TEST THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
KOINOIA
how can you fellowship with and impersonal force?
The Holy Spirit is God. We do not worship him he simply points us to the lord.
This is very dangerous ground.
2 Corinthians 3:18
"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."
As Jesus and the Father are One, so is His Spirit, the Lord. Yahweh is one God, with three distinct and unified personalities. Because the Lord the Spirit is identified as simply the Spirit, certainly does not make Him any less of a personality, or any less a member of the Godhead.
Revelation 2:7
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
He speaks and rules over the Churches of Jesus Christ, and is honored as the Word of God. He is God.
Jahweh, the father, Jahweh,the Son Jeshua, and Jahweh the Holy Spirit...which some rightfully name the Trinity.
This is very basic stuff, and to intellectualize it and complicate it is erroneous. This does not come from the mind of Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
He has a Father, and a Spirit. He is God.
So if someone denies the doctrine of the Trinity, it that heresey? I'm not trying to start somthing here, and hope nobody else does either, but I've always thought that denial of the Trinity was heresey and that true Christians affirmed that doctrine.
So Phanetheus, it seems you believe in a Bi-unity view of the Godhead. Interesting. Never heard of that view before until now. I am Trinitarian myself. I started off being confused between Oneness and Trinitarian and finally was convinced of the Trinity after serious study. Up until recently, I've always considered the Oneness doctrine to be extremely heretical and outside of orthodox Christianity. The reason I'm more open to accepting Oneness folk as brethren is because I met an older lady that held that view, who seemed to be a true believer. She attends a Trinitarian church and seems to be spirit-filled, and we agreed in many other areas. So if you are Bi-unitarian I am open to accepting you as a brother. I write all this for the sake of those who believe we cannot accept anyone as a brother who does not believe in the Trinity. I invite any input from any who disagree with my stance.
I'm pretty sure that the Scriptures don't explicitly require belief in the "Trinity" for salvation......HOWEVER, Faith is defined as believing HE is God and will diligently reward those who seek HIM. Knowing who HE is as HE reveals Himself to be seems to be a definition of living faith. Meeting this test would seem to require first, sufficient revelation of the truth of who HE is, which is the crux of the discussion. IF you say HE is this but not that and you are wrong, where does that put you?
Allow me to clarify- I'm not questioning those who are unaware or ignorant concerning the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather those who explicitly deny the doctrine. I know that Oneness Pentocostaly affirm baptism for forgivness of sins as well. Sooo... denial= heresey?
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So if someone denies the doctrine of the Trinity, it that heresey? I'm not trying to start somthing here, and hope nobody else does either, but I've always thought that denial of the Trinity was heresey and that true Christians affirmed that doctrine.
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Jlosindki,
I used to work with a couple who were Apostolic. Her husband and I were talking one day and he said they were Pentecostal. And I asked him if they believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and he said yes, they did!
Denial of the trinity and trinitiarianism are both man-made doctrines, imho. I could be wrong but I humbly submit that because both Apostolics and Christians receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost along with the gift of tongues (edit: as well as all the other gifts) that this (to me) proves that God does NOT differentiate between either belief that Jesus is God, Son and Spirit and Three in One believers!
God bless you,
Lisa
Yes, denial of the trinity is heresy.
I know that there are certain doctrines which are essential to Christianity and salvation. But I'm not too sure if the Trinity is one of those essentials, especially after meeting that lady I mentioned earlier. I'm sure you guys know how when you meet someone sometimes you connect in a certain way and you have a sense that they are a true believer after talking with them a few minutes. That's what I sensed with this lady. I did not even know she was Oneness until after we had a lengthy conversation about the things of God, things like the deity of Christ, having a heart for seeking the lost, loving and serving the Lord in the midst of trials, etc. It was surprising because I had met Oneness people before but never really felt any connection like with this elderly lady.
I know for sure that the Deity of Christ has to be an essential because Jesus makes that very clear in the gospels. He said, "unless you believe that I AM He you will die in your sins."(John 8:24) The word "He" is not in the original Greek so He actually stated that He is the "I AM" of Ex.3:14.
Thank you Oracio and Lysa.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus,
Adonai Eloheinu Yir'eh that we know, one day will make it so we will not see through a glass darkly.
Now is not that time.
There is no intention of debating this issue, but i'll spill the beans for those curious.
For those of you who wish to discuss Tanakh, what i have been taught is that Jesus manifestation to His people in the O.T. is YHVH --(and this is not the name of the Father). When Jesus came to earth, living, dying, then living again immortal in the flesh, Y-H-V-H took on one letter into this name, becoming Y-H-Sh-V-H. This means, that "I AM" -(in a loose translation)- became "I AM PRESENT (TO SAVE)."
i opened another can of worms, (that i am adamant about), yet if you hold to three aspects and not four, or three persons and not two, that is between you and the Lord.
Yes, the Holy Roman Catholic Church declared it Heresy to not believe in trinity at one of their (ridiculous) councils pronouncing a wide array of anathemas ...so it must be heresy, right?
(After all, we must recreate God into an implicitly ambiguous personae so nobody can be sure who or what we are dealing with ...even as man doesn't know himself and is non-changing?)
The concept of Godhead has shifted over the years --from trinitarian onto oneness onto seeing God as two-- , yet in each change of perspective, greater light into God's revelation of Himself through revelation of scripture lived out has opened new vista's into knowing Him more deeply.
Because Jesus took on the likeness of a man, all the things said about the Holy Spirit are spoken regarding someone seperate and distinct. (Please consider this in thinking it blasphemy against God's Spirit (that is Holy), for me to reckon God as two persons who are One in Spirit and Truth.
When i cry out to Abba El Elyon, the Spirit of Jesus Christ comes and works salvation in the most astounding ways. i have witness in others great deliverances from sin(s), miracles, healings, and restorations of many various things that the majority of believer's(?) would say, "well let's just pray and ask God's will be done in this," or in failing to recieve what God wants for us (as specified in the scriptures), persistence in prayer is mentioned or even "well, maybe God has other plans."
I do not know a God who is ambiguous about who He is, how He represents HIMSELF to man, nor what He desires of and for us. Jesus is God's revelation to man, whether He manifests Himself by the presence of His Spirit or when He comes again to earth.
Jesus Christ crucified is the will of God for every human. In dying daily, we are imputed with the Spirit of Life in and of Jesus Christ.
Anyway, no matter what you know of God, the bottom line is this:
To live life in His Spirit,
we must take up our cross and die daily
(minute by minute);
and to mature
we must become childlike
(minute by minute): confidently resting all our trust and reliance in Him, dependently expecting Him to speak and answer us through this remaining ... communing within Him.
i may not be right and i don't really care. I have a relationship with the One who is implicit and is not ambiguous.
He is here and He is never silent.
There are two questions though:
1. In considering the Holy Spirit as someone seperate and distinct in person from our Father and our Brother, does this in any way direct attention towards something other than Christ Jesus or Abba?
2. Since thinking the Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate individual united with Father and Son, why not pray to Him?
"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
II Cor. 3.17-18
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שַׁאֲלוּ שְׁלוֹם יְרוּשָׁלִָם
"Sha’alu shalom Yerushalayim"
"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!"
May Israel be unveiled and step out into the Light.
Rom. 11.15: “For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!”
God Bless you all in seeking Him,
g
Like most people i try to avoid christian dogma like the plague. Many scriptural things have been worked into modern day christian theology somethings are damnable others not so damnable. If we are honest and meek we will realize at some point as much as we think we know God we haven't even begun to scratch the surface. When we get to the point where we are literally dying of a hunger for God we then give up ideology and lean not on or own understanding. There will be times like myself where you will think you are right only for Gods spirit of truth to lead you to the truth of a matter. As long as we are not blind he will have no problem leading us. Pride is something we have to be conscious of so we don't get puffed up.
There are two questions though: 1. In considering the Holy Spirit as someone separate and distinct in person from our Father and our Brother, does this in any way direct attention towards something other than Christ Jesus or Abba?
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit only speaks what he hears our lord speak and he will always glorify Jesus.
10"Do you not believe that (N)I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? (O)The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
The Holy Spirit speaks as God because he is God. In Acts we see numerous occasions when we see the Spirit speak "Expressly" with very coherent instructions to the apostles. When i pray if the Spirit speaks to me i respond to God not to the Holy Spirit (This is something the Holy Spirit corrected in me as i had learnt error). Prayer in the Holy Ghost to me is the most effective prayer you can pray. The bible says that the spirit knows the mind of a man then it talks of the Holy Spirit knowing the mind of God. Thats why the Holy Spirit can reveal God to us because he is God and he knows the mind of God.
2. Since thinking the Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate individual united with Father and Son, why not pray to Him?
Jesus gave a format for prayer before his crucifixion. When the Spirit was poured out of heaven on pentecost a dimension of prayer (prayer in the Spirit) was now available to as believers. The Father Glorifies the Son The Son Glorifies the Father and the Spirit Glorifies and points to the Son. None of the Godhead seem to want to Glorify themselves. When Jesus was on earth he didnt Glorify himself. So now the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son is here with us it makes sense that he would not want to Glorify himself either.
In light of new testament scripture it is virtual impossible to infer with sound hermeneutics that the Holy Spirit is not indeed a distinct individual.
Some will say that the use of IT/HE might mean the holy spirit was only referred to as a HE in a similar allegorical fashion to Wisdom. The difference is demonstrable by scripture
1.The Spirit has a will
2.He hears
3.Speaks expressly
4.Has koinioia with us(fellowship of the holy spirit)
5.Makes intercession on our behalf when we pray in the spirit as we don't know what we really should be praying for.
6.Teaches and leads us
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
7.Comforter
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Both whether we infer the God-head is comprised of two or three or even just one. This is most likely inferred from scripture implicitly as to the best of my knowledge i can find a scripture that says
"I am your god, and the God head comprises of 5.257 parts". To so God doesn't exist so he is 0 to others there are many Gods so they would have the number at infinity.
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Gods nature and essence is an absolute truth and not a relative one.
God said he would not give his children a stone if the ask for bread and i believe him. Its the devil that gives stone in place of bread *think about it stone for bread*
{Edited for clarity}
Some JW's say the Holy Spirit is just a force of God. We all know the Spirit is the dunamis (power) of God.
Carnally energy has various forms from kinetic, to chemical to solar etc. As human beings we are move when our muscles provide the force for movement.
Because we posses the ability to digest organic material and produce energy to run does this power we posses make us cease to be sentient beings?
Like i would say to JW's the fact that the Holy Spirit is dunamis doesnt infer he is not a person. I have often asked for another example of an impersonal spirit in the bible (one without demonstrable consciousness) but there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a spirit that is not personable in context of spirit beings. I have tried looking for a spirit that is not a being but cant seem to find one.
If i said
"a man walked into a room and began to talk and i noticed a "spirit of humility" ."
I can either be talking about an impersonal disposition or an actual spirit being of humility.
hermaneutically i cant infer either. But if the next lines reads
"he was taught and filled with the spirit of humility. The spirit of humility would rebuke and correct him in times of arrogance."
then we can infer that "the spirit of humility" is a personable being simply by its characteristics
if the next line instead read
"Youngsters these days can learn a thing or two from this mans disposition"
We can infer the opposite.
But its not always as clear cut because of parallel truths in regard to God (the cause of allot of error in the church). Because i could in fact be inferring that a spirit being is responsible for the mans disposition in which case both notions can be inferred but neither can be excluded.
This is the exegesis i come to in relation to the Holy Ghost its the power of God personified in his Spirit and looking at the acts of the apostles after Pentecost. The Holy Spirit spoken of in Acts is not an allegorical personification as the book of Acts is an historical account of the Acts of the apostles and not poetry. So to infer allegory from an historical account is very inaccurate.
Here are just a few scriptures mainly from Acts to consider about the Holy Spirit
Acts 5:29-32 (New International Version)
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Acts 13:4 (New International Version)
4The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus.
Acts 15:28 (New International Version)
28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
Acts 16:6 (New International Version)
6Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia.
Acts 20:23 (New International Version)
23I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me.
Acts 20:28 (New International Version)
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
Acts 21:11 (New International Version)
11Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' "
1 Corinthians 6:19 (New International Version)
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, WHO is in you, WHOM you have received from God? You are not your own;
**Temple of the holy spirit? why does and inanimate force need a temple?**
Psalm 51:9-13 (New International Version)
9 Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to you.
To original post:
It is heresy to deny the trinity. But that is not to say that all Christians understand the trinity. I had to study a great deal as a new Christian before I came to understand the Spirit (not that I am some expert). Very simply, the Holy Ghost is God. Not an expression of God, but God Himself.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Spirit. Who moved upon the face of the waters at the creation? The Spirit. Who was sent to testify to the churches? The Spirit. What person of the trinity lives in the believer? The Spirit.
So if someone said that the Spirit was just an expression of God, some questions to ask are:
-Why does the Bible say that the Spirit talks?
-Allows?
-Forbids?
-Searches?
Just as only a person can love, only a person can do these things. Like so many other things in the Scripture, only the Spirit can teach someone the things of the Spirit. Saul knew the law, but only the Spirit could teach Paul what it meant. I don't expect the unregenerate to understand. They must repent first. And even then, the way we are taught after we are saved is a mystery.
It will be reiterated, the trinity concept was created through Roman Catholicism after the onset of the third century.
i will be the first to tell you that the Holy Spirit is, as an active and funtional part of my life.
It's just that the Holy Spirit is not as Roman Catholicism made Him out to be.
The Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord and Christ.
Jesus is united with the Father, and so through their union, the Holy Spirit is seen as Jesus Christ and the Father in Him.
It is heresy to say that the Holy Spirit is something other than Christ or the Lord, whom Jesus is God's representation of on earth.
How's that?
Rainman, it's thought that you misunderstand me perhaps.
Salom Shabbat,
g
I always loved the statement:
"To deny the Trinity is heresy..but it's a mystery that you can't really understand nor can I fully explain. In other words, if you don't believe what I can't fully explain you are going to hell.
I challenge anyone to go through the book of Acts, the best record of absolutely true apostolic preaching we have, and find an instance where the trinity is preached as a doctrine that must be received to be "truly saved". And, in looking at all the sermons where Christ is preached to both Jew and Gentile, I also challenge you to find any instance where Jesus is preached as something other than either "God's Son" or the "Son of Man".
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