You Cannot Quote the Law to Prove that God Hates Homosexuality

When people quote the Old Testament Law to prove that God condemns homosexuals and homosexuality, they are misusing the Bible. I know that sounds like an extreme statement, but it is based on one of Paul’s very strong themes that runs through the books of Galatians and Romans, and appears briefly in Colossians.

Paul taught that Christians are not under the Law. In Galatians he taught that to be under the Law was to be under a yoke of slavery. There are two ways to live, one is according to the oldness of the letter, or the oldness of the written code, and the other is to walk in the Spirit. Paul strenuously objected to the Christian teachers of his day who worked to keep other Christians bound to the Old Testament Law. These teachers found in the books of Acts and Galatians are often called Judaizers today. They taught that obedience to the Hebrew Torah was necessary for salvation. These advocates of the Law outraged Paul so much that he wished they would “castrate themselves!” (The Message, New Century Version, NRSV).

In Romans he taught 1) that sin is not taken into account where there is no Law, 2) that it is the Law that brings God’s wrath, 3) that where there is no Law there is no transgression, 4) that apart from the Law sin is dead, and 5) that we are not under Law but under grace.

You cannot quote the Law to Prove that God hates homosexuality.

Paul showed how the Law is related to the cross and to the forgiveness of sins in Colossians 2:13b-14 where he wrote, “He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

The Law stands against you. The Law stands in opposition to us. Therefore, Christ took away the Law, and nailed it to the cross.

Now I know that many of you are very familiar with the following Scripture verses, and that my clustering of these ten (10) verses together will not be convincing. For me, they are convincing. They are not taken from context. They ARE the context of everything that surrounds them.

You cannot quote the Law against homosexuality. It undermines this powerful, repeated testimony from Paul.

Romans 2:12--All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 4:15--The law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13--Before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Romans 6:14--Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Romans 7:8b--Apart from law, sin is dead.

Galatians 3:10--All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Galatians 3:13--Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,

Galatians 3:25--Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Galatians 5:1--It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:18--But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Colossians 2:13b-14--He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

If you insist on preserving the Law in the life of the Christian, you are bringing a curse on yourself and on everyone you convince to accept the yoke of the Law, which Christ died to deliver you from.

One more thing. I’m sure most of you will invoke the alleged distinction between the moral Law and the ceremonial Law. The Bible makes no such distinction. It can be inferred from a passage or two, but these “inferences” can in no way negate Paul’s clear denunciation of the Law in the Christian life.

Repeat: the Bible makes no distinction between the so-called moral Law and the so-called ceremonial Law.

The distinction between the so-called moral and ceremonial Law is a man-made distinction, perpetrated on the church to preserve the Law in our daily lives.

In the Bible, the Law is a UNITY. In its essence it is NOT divided. If you break the Law in regard to even a single thing, you are guilty of breaking the whole Law. “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it,” (James 2:10).

As a Christian you cannot quote Leviticus to prove that God hates anything, including homosexuality. If you do, you bring the Law, in its entirety, back into effect, and crucify Christ afresh.

You cannot quote Leviticus to prove that God hates homosexuality.

You may be able to prosecute your case against homosexuals using other Bible passages, but not the two in Leviticus.

So drop Leviticus from your arsenal of ammunition against homosexuals, unless you are prepared to re-establish the Law in the Church--in its ENTIRETY.

Philologos, the thread is discussing whether or not we can quote the Leviticus (the Law) to prove that God hates homosexuality. This thread is not discussing Romans 1, it is discussing the validity of Christians quoting the Torah to prove what God hates.

No matter what you wrote, it remains true that you cannot quote Leviticus to prove that God hates homosexuality, and evidently homosexuals as well since they receive the death penalty.

Like I said, you may be able to prove that God hates homosexuals, or homosexuality, using other Bible passages, but quoting Leviticus is a gross and unjustified misuse of Scripture.

In Romans Paul taught 1) that sin is not taken into account where there is no Law, 2) that it is the Law that brings God’s wrath, 3) that where there is no Law there is no transgression, 4) that apart from the Law sin is dead, and 5) that we are not under Law but under grace.

Is it any wonder that he wrote to the Colossians: “He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

They are related to the topic, but not necessarily in this particular thread. My reply to you is that whatever you believe about your two questions, you cannot use the book of Leviticus to determine what is or is not sin.

Any attempt to invoke the Law against believers is an attempt to place them under the yoke of slavery Paul talks about in Galatians. Paul had little patience with people who fought to retain the Law in their Christian life.

One-by-one I want to deal with the Slam Passages, or Clobber Passages. Here I'd like to stay with Leviticus and the Law.

Quoting Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to prove that God hates homosexuality is completely illegitimate because the Law can only bring God's wrath.

"The law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression."

This is why Christ did away with the Law, nailing it to the cross.

“He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.”

Forgiveness is intimately bound up with the cancellation of the Law. The Law brings wrath. The cancellation of the Law brings forgiveness. This is a spiritual truth. This is not simply a matter of argument. We must jettison the Law in our lives to receive forgiveness. To cling to the Law, to insist on the necessity of the Law, is to reject the deliverance Christ provided on the cross.

Dear Ronald,

I have some thoughts I'd like to share. Please be patient. I think this may be a longish post, and you don't need to reply to it. I would ask, though, that you let the scriptures I've quoted, sink deep down into your ears.

(EDIT: To clarify: in the following by 'New Testament' I mean the books of.)

Regarding 'law' in the lives of Christians, are you forgetting, perhaps, that when Jesus Christ came, there was no New Testament? And that 'the new testament in His blood' is fully intended to bring the knowledge of God into the HEARTS of His people, in a personal way. Again let me quote Hebrews 8:

10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Jesus Himself began His ministry with the word 'REPENT', (Mark 1), which is exactly what John the Baptist had been saying, being the last prophet to Israel under the Old Covenant.

Baptism for Jews was a new introduction to their faith, and what's more, the power of God was sooo in John Baptist's preaching, that people came to be baptised - to wash away their sins (Acts 22:16) and to ask what they could do to 'Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,' John adds, 'and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.' (Luke 3:8)

Interesting, the emphasis is on a disowning of their fleshly inheritance through Abraham, despite the promises that one would be born of David's line (tribe of Judah) to deliver them. May you have disregarded the emphasis in the Old Testament in respect of God's mourning over sin, and His desire that His people also, should mourn over their sins, and the inevitable death to which sin leads?

These themes are not absent from the New Testament, so it is amazing you don't take Christ's fulfilment of the law as seriously as He did, when He actually died for us - not so that we could continue to sin (thereby rejecting His offer of salvation), but so that we could enter into His death (to make a genuine spiritual end of sin on an individual basis), and, on an individual basis, be raised to a NEW life.

This is the substance of Romans 5 - 8. But 'freely give us all things' has nothing to do with sin. Peter expresses it this way: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Pet 1)

Both in Acts 3 (Peter speaking), and in Acts 13 (Paul speaking), both of whom refer to the prophets and the law (the covenant), and the need to hear 'that Prophet' of whom Moses spoke (Christ) there is no doubt that forgiveness of the sins defined in the OLD Testament, is the heart of the gospel. Nothing which Jesus said, in any way contradicted the spirit of the law in its intention to inform us about God's utter holiness, purity, and uncreated glory.

Note: Peter quotes Moses in full: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, SHALL BE DESTROYED from among the people.

He goes on: 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, SENT HIM TO BLESS YOU, IN TURNING AWAY EVERYONE OF YOU FROM HIS INIQUITIES. (Acts 3)

That is, those iniquities preached against all through the OLD Testament.

There is nothing wrong with a ministry to homosexuals, but any ministry depends upon the power of God by His Holy Spirit, to deal with the spiritual side of all sin.

Whether you preach healing first, or repentance, those who come to God by Jesus Christ, must acknowledge that He is, and they must expect to be recreated, And [to] have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. ( Col 3:10)

There is no logic (or fairness to the hearers) to the message of salvation if they cannot be delivered from ALL sin. The extremity - Christ dying on a cross, the blood of the Lamb of God - is essential for some unbelievers to begin only to hope they might be able to be saved some day. For, if Christ cannot save to the uttermost, there is no hope for THEM. That's how their situation appears to them from inside their hearts and minds and bodies.

Can you see that? Or, at least, please receive it from me, as this is part of my testimony.

Moving on, I noticed in a post you said this: 'I have dealt with the so-called "Slam Passages" (Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:18-32, etc.) to my own satisfaction.'

Doesn't it bother you that your 'own satisfaction' may not satisfy God? He is looking for those who are willing to adopt His entire pattern of thought over every matter He has disclosed to us, through the scriptures.

Even calling some of His word 'Slam Passages', indicates you have adopted the thinking of those with whom you associate, rather than being one who shares HIS mind, with them, as Paul entreats at the end of 2 Cor 5, (which would include all of GOD's definition of sin).

Returning to the relationship Christians should have with 'the law', here is one poem by Charles Wesley, which addresses it in some fulness:

'Tis finished! The Messiah dies,
Cut off for sins, but not His own:
Accomplished is the sacrifice,
The great redeeming work is done.

'Tis finished! all the debt is paid;
Justice divine is satisfied;
The grand and full atonement made;
God for a guilty world hath died.

The veil is rent in Christ alone;
The living way to heaven is seen;
The middle wall is broken down,
And all mankind may enter in.

The types and figures are fulfilled;
Exacted is the legal pain;
The precious promises are sealed;
The spotless Lamb of God is slain.

The reign of sin and death is o'er,
And all may live from sin set free;
Satan hath lost his mortal power;
'Tis swallowed up in victory.

Saved from the legal curse I am,
My Savior hangs on yonder tree:
See there the meek, expiring Lamb!
'Tis finished! He expires for me.

Accepted in the Well-beloved,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
I see the bar to heaven removed;
And all Thy merits, Lord, are mine.

Death, hell, and sin are now subdued;
All grace is now to sinners given;
And lo, I plead the atoning blood,
And in Thy right I claim Thy heaven!

As Paul asks: Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

(Please pause here. Think about this. There is no God-given right to a sexual relationship of any kind, when one is dead. 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12)

Reading other parts of the New Testament, it is clear that even born again Christians may, or may not, marry, depending on the outworking of God's calling on their lives. (Matt 19:12, 1 Cor 7:1, 2, 39, 40) God does not give a choice to a man, to 'marry' a woman OR a man. That's because 'to avoid fornication', in the New Testament, includes avoiding homosexual liaisons. There are more than a dozen other places in the New Testament, where fornication is named as 'sin'.)

As Paul continues from Rom 6 above: (therefore)

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our OLD man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be DESTROYED, that henceforth we should NOT SERVE sin. (Rom 6)

Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven... 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he]. (John 4)

Dear Ready Mind,

You've written a lot here. Please allow me to answer one point.

You wrote: "In Leviticus, when God says that homosexuality is 'an abomination' this is an absolute statement. Rightly dividing the word of God, one will instantly recognize that the principle of abomination is true as an 'absolute,' apart from law."

In all seriousness, a great many things are called "abominations" in the Law.

Mainly different kinds of food.

God said, "No eating food the third day after it’s left out. That is an abomination, and the person that does eat it will bear his iniquity."

Leviticus 7:18 "And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity."

Leviticus 11:10 "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you."

Leviticus 11:11 "They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcasses in abomination.

Leviticus 11:12 "Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."

Leviticus 11:13 "And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray . . .

Leviticus 11:20 "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:23 "But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:41 "And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Leviticus 11:42 "Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.

Ready Mind, there are, I believe, over 100 food sources that are labeled abominations in the Law.

And then there is male homosexuality.

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Sorry, but I'm not giving up my frog legs, or mussels, and certainly not my shrimp and my bacon.

I'm not being funny. When shrimp and bacon are included on the list of things called abominations, then the word abomination doesn't carry with it quite the thunder it does when applied to other...abominations.

Ready Mind, I don't think there is a Biblical basis for your insistence that

"When God says that homosexuality is 'an abomination' this is an absolute statement. Rightly dividing the word of God, one will instantly recognize that the principle of abomination is true as an 'absolute,' apart from law."

If you were correct, then we would still be forbidden to eat bacon, or crab, or shrimp. We know for a fact that there was nothing "absolute" about touching the skin of a pig or eating rabbit. So when you talk about "rightly dividing the word of truth," you really do need to consider how that relates to you.

Thank you for taking the time follow the link to the book. I hope it is a blessing for you, one way or another.

Hello again Ronald,

I've caught up with the posts made while I was writing.

You say
'In Romans Paul taught 1) that sin is not taken into account where there is no Law, 2) that it is the Law that brings God’s wrath, 3) that where there is no Law there is no transgression, 4) that apart from the Law sin is dead, and 5) that we are not under Law but under grace.'

All these statements are true, but you have missed out two vital chronological events (chronology being vital to God's plan of salvation through Christ, who came 'in the fulness of time'). They are:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added BECAUSE OF transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

(Romans 3:we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Note: 'for the remission of sins that are past')

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

'He appeared TO PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of Himself'.

God knew that men could never become righteous by their own efforts. His 'grace' is that He chose to come to fulfil all righteousness on our behalf, by believing and continuing to believe in which, we can be saved FROM SIN.

And, therefore, from eternal death.

That's what the gospel is about.

It's about having a hope of RESURRECTION from the dead.

Hi Ronald,

A few more thoughts.

You said within an earlier post: 'Quoting Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to prove that God hates homosexuality is completely illegitimate because the Law can only bring God's wrath.'

But that's exactly why God ever mentioned homosexual behaviour, giving its context in the worship of other gods, but when He poured out His wrath on Christ, instead of on us, He established for ever that He included homosexual practices with every other outworking of sin.

There is now, no reason not to proclaim with gladness to those who practise homosexuality, that they can be delivered from their bitter torments.

Regarding 'the law' in New Testament writings, in one place Paul says: 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, AND if there be any OTHER thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (1 Tim 1)

How does it work?

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But AFTER that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Justification by faith necessarily follows having been convicted of sin. Homosexuals may have a problem though, because of what happens when they choose not to retain God in their knowledge, namely, 'a reprobate mind'.

The next stage is described in 2 Thess 2: 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The end of Rom 1 contains the same thesis, as does 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Note the progression expressed in Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

The above show us a progression into spiritual confusion. First of all a person tries to deceive God, (big mistake) imagining (important word) He cannot 'see' their heart (which He can, all the time), and then, he begins to believe his deception has worked. (That's called 'self-deception'.)

By now, he has made himself a prey to other deceivers, who can more easily deceive him, because long ago he stopped acknowledging, and lost contact with, truth.

Therefore, when any homosexual comes to Christ - The Truth - there is a lot of sorting out to do. But one thing is certain: he cannot remain in self-deception or confusion, unless he resists the working of the Holy Spirit.

Remember, the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ, the Truth. There can be no mixture in Him. Had HE sinned, He would not have been the spotless Lamb of God.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

I mention the last point because you seem to believe that God changed somewhere between the giving of the law, and coming 'full of grace and truth', the (whole) word made flesh. Yet you must know that God does not change. 'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.' James 1:17

That's why we can depend on His word, and, upon Him for judgement, as much as believers can depend upon Him for mercy.

There is a very serious side to suggesting He was not wholly pure and holy. Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

I hope you will give deep consideration to these thoughts.

I forgot one other thing you said:

'In Galatians he [Paul] taught that to be under the Law was to be under a yoke of slavery.'

The 'yoke' is 'slavery' to SIN (the wages of which is death, which, as you know, we all can forget about very easily without the law outside, or within), and it was prophesied against by Isaiah 10:27 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

1 John 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

But there is a yoke for the Christian:

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

Having laid aside sin, we are to take that yoke.

Why would you not also wish this for homosexual practitioners?

Ronald,
i was going to make this a PM to you, but i thought it best to make it public, in the case i was wrong in what i'm about to write.

the moderators on this forum are good, Godly men, with a whole lot of love and patience. i can say that because i have sorely tested their love and patience more times than i'd like to admit to.

one of the few things that makes them uneasy is if somebody has "agenda", other than that of Revival, or of the Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and Resurected.

they are not gunned up for censorship, nor are they "legalists" or "pharisees", quite the contrary, BUT they dont countenance posters that have an agenda.

one instance in particular, i wont mention a name, or even the agenda, but this poster was just single-minded and vociferous in foisting his agenda onto the forum, and he was reasoned with, and pm'ed, and lovingly corrected, etc. and it went on for quite a while, actually threw the forum into a minor uproar....minor, because when it was apparent, that this brother, wasnt going to submit to any authority, he was banned from posting, and i cant speak for the moderators, but knowing them in the Spirit, i am more than certain they took no joy in doing this, nor do i take any joy in writing this public post, that would seem to urge you to cease on this topic of yours.

and i say that, because the way i read it, you'll just continue, kind of like a samurai going down with his blade flashing, and when your inevitable "ban" comes, you'll just go forth and say, "look at those "biblical bigots" on SI, they couldnt bear my 'teachings' so they threw me off the forum"......i hope and pray that doesnt happen, but it does seem to be going in that direction, and to slander such a God honoring website, would indeed be sin, compounded.

....and the onus of SI is canted soley towards hearts afire for God reviving His Church in this time NOW. Its not whether or not the continuing practice of homosexuality is spiritually covered by the Blood of Christ.......you made your point, abuntantly, this "Church" has NOT accepted it, we have reasoned with you, patiently, Scripturally and i believe lovingly, yet you continue with this "one horse agenda", so.........

what's next?

You ever listen to Duncan Campbell speak of his days being allowed by God to witness revival on the lonely hebridean Islands off Scotland, circa 1949-53? Marvelous stuff, and its right here on this website!

well, God love you, neil

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your note. I have no problem with your decision to send it publicly.

Christian (HmmHmm) posted a reply, and among other things suggested that I consider my thesis regarding Luke 17:34-36, so I decided it was probably time to discuss some of the passages used against gay and lesbian believers. I started with a thread on the illegitimate use of the Law, namely Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

I realize that my input here has provoked a strong response. Philologos has started a thread titled, "The Doctrinal Delusions of Ronald Goetz," where he has taken it upon himself to critique "Jesus and the Six Homosexuals." I am glad that he is reading the book. I don't know if any others from SI have followed his example and requested a PDF copy or not.

Neil, as it stands now, I am discussing Leviticus at the suggestion of Christian, and replying to the criticisms of Ron (Philologos).

One more thing, Neil. A handful of people have "reasoned" with me. The bulk of people here seem to think that cutting and pasting long blocks of Bible text constitutes "reasoning," and it doesn't. The number of times I've been accused of heresy, of being a false teacher, and had people quote Romans 16:17 (mark and avoid) would take a while to tally.

I haven't been here long enough to know whether the moderators are considering banning me from the site or not. I have seen one thread closed, the one on "the evils of free will." The poster was flaming. But I haven't heard anything from the moderators warning me to stop posting.

The only comments directed to me encouraged me to look at the entirety of Scripture on this topic, which I have done. And Ron's criticisms seem to merit reply, especially when he insists on doing things like insisting I have mispunctuated things that are not mispunctuated. His criticisms aren't too sound at this point.

Revival often comes when churches are humble enough to receive Bible teachings that were there all the time, but were simply missed or ignored.

Gratefully,

Ron

Disciple, it would be virtually impossible for me to reply to every response. I have had scores of replies, and each reply has anywhere from, oh, three to ten separate thoughts.

Yes, I "have completely ignored many of the responses." The majority of the posts directed at me denounce me as a false teacher, a teacher of heresy. I don't need to defend myself against my multitude of accusers.

God said, "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him."

God is my Encourager: "But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head."

"We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield."

I don't need a defence against them, Disciple. Christ is my defence.

I often take refuge in God's words to Jeremiah:

"If you have run with footmen and they have tired you out, then how can you compete with horses? If you fall down in a land of peace, how will you do in the thicket of the Jordan?"

God bless you Disciple. May God bless your life and ministry, and fulfill that promise to do great and exceedingly beyond what you can hope or imagine.

Ron

it should be kind of obvious that your thesis isnt gaining any traction on this forum....and really, if you noticed, nobody has gotten nasty or engaged in vituperative glass breaking in your direction.

there is a close knit, kind of neat cyber fellowship that God has allowed to develop over the last 8 plus years, and it isnt merely confined to mere posts. SI does have face to face conferences, some webcast. There is a telephone conference regular prayer meeting, i have been so blessed as to speak with and meet with a few posters here.

and let me tell you this, at least from my own heart, if i considered your thesis correct and lining up with Scripture, the "fear of the crowd" would not deter me from standing alongside of you....and i have a feeling there are other brothers and sisters here who have no fear of man's opinion either, but that's why i said to you before, i cant go along with you on your thesis, coz its just outright wrong, and overwhelmingly every one of these saints on this forum feel the same, as led by God the Holy Ghost.

which is why i asked, "what's next?" is your ministry comprised of just this one thesis? If it is, you might be in for some rough sledding, and i dont mean that in any mean-spirited threatening way, just a statement of fact.

there is a Spirit filled harmony here, so once you've unpacked this thesis of yours, you've read the reactions, there have been no "yes and amens" to it, unless you have something else to unpack that edifies the Body of believers, why would you ever, for the Love of Christ, wish to continually "jam" your thesis down the throats of this humble fellowship?

You gave your "word", it was not recieved, so why hang out and hang on? Such a stance will only bring dissesion to this fellowship, and Heaven forbid, and i've seen this before on this forum, at times, we've had such wonderful breakthroughs here, wonderful prophesy, much love and Grace in Christ, and literally the devil will send unclean spirits to disrupt the love and harmony in Christ on this forum. Hence, lets say we get posters with maybe 2 to 10 posts, popping up on here, and mounting a full throated defense of your thesis, starting a nasty cyber brawl, that can only come from the enemy. We are not unaware of his schemes.

in all honesty, i, at times have been involved in the most intemperate dialogue, disruptive, non-loving, and at the end of the day, just feel terrible. its my flesh coming to fore, and let me tell you this, EVERYTIME, i got out of hand, and asked forgiveness from these saints, it was always given, Bless Jesus.

so Ron, unless you want to do a 180 degree turn and repent of this thesis of yours, why would you WANT to hang out here, unless of course, God can use us to dissuade you from this perilous course you are on.

i beg you please, please, repent, this is wrong, this teaching of yours, what can i, a mere man, say to you to dissuade you from this course? Only God the Holy Spirit has such Words, and my prayer is that you listen to the Small Still Voice, and repent.

baring that, i think it would wise and noble if you left.

You wrote:
"Revival often comes when churches are humble enough to receive Bible teachings that were there all the time, but were simply missed or ignored."

i beg to differ, revival only comes when God decides Revival will come, fore He is Sovereign in Revival, only when He can TRUST us with Revival, humility in the saints is a given, burnt out worms of Christ is what He desires to be the human channels of Revival, and hear me on this, got this from my older brother, Revival will NOT be televised.

so please, repent and bring something sweet and good to the table and stay awhile, otherwise you should leave, that i beg you.

neil