Those who say Paul lied ...

I had an opportunity recently to share my faith with a gentleman who, while he professed faith in Christ, was completely persuaded that many of the things Paul wrote in his epistles were just not true. For starters, he denied Paul's claims to be an apostle -- and it went on from there. This fellow had a dog-eared, well-marked Bible, attends a Messianic congregation, and evidently feels he has looked into this subject in great detail. It was quite perplexing talking with him, and he seemed to be beyond dogmatic about his beliefs -- in fact, almost angry at times.

Having never encountered this viewpoint before, I did some research and found some internet sites promoting this type of teaching. I would like to continue the dialog with this man, and am wondering if there are any threads on SI concerning this, and/or if anyone could point me in a helpful direction?

Thanks!
David

Thanks for the reply, and I agree, it is definitely ludicrous. At one point in the discussion, I asked him and his wife to show me which pages they thought I should rip out of my Bible. It gave them pause, and made them think a bit (and hopefully, repent), but they seem very committed to their erroneous view.

On the positive side, the whole encounter just stirred me to share the truth all the more. In my years of following Christ, I had just never come across this view before.

I've run into some "Christians" who believe Paul to have been a false apostle. They are rare, so I can't say I've had the chance to sit down and get a systematic understanding of them. But basically most of these guys are individuals who are extremely "Messianic Jewish," and view Paul as a traitor to the Torah, and interpret him to be anti-nomian. If memory serves me correct, these individuals also denied the Diety of Christ, and basically charge most Christians as being "Paulists" instead of followers of Christ.

My first reaction is what are they running away from? What are they trying to hide?

There was a sermon here on SI by Art Katz that I listened to once where he talked a lot about this issue. Do you remember which one it was Jimmy?

I think he talks about it in one of the prophtetical school tapes. But not for certain. I've not listened to him much in about a year.

I appreciate everyone's insights. While this fellow does attend a Messianic congregation, he clearly affirmed the Deity of Christ in our conversation. In fact, other than (1) his way off views of Paul and (2) his contentious attitude about it, we had no other glaring disagreements. Of course, this was just one chat.

He was bogged down in "supposed" inconsistencies, for instance, in the different Scriptural accounts of Paul's Damascus Road experience (Luke's, Paul's, etc.), but yet doesn't deny everything Paul writes. When I asked him if perhaps he was usurping the place of God, in deciding which passages were true or not, he had no answer.

I hope to talk with him some more; in my view, he has a issue with submission, teachability, and likely, pride. I'm praying the Lord might give him a doctrinal Damascus Road experience of his own.

Thanks for the feedback!

This kind of deception is rampant in more areas than one would quickly recognize. There are all sorts of ways that this leaven of questioning the word of God swells men with pride. The congregation of believers I attend recently told a brother he could not teach that the book of James was uninspired because of his ultra-dispensational beliefs. As a result he went out from us...

The bible tells us to not be ignorant of Satan's devices, and the very first device he used was, "Hath God really said?" One of the most dangerous pills a man can imbibe is one that grants him authority over that which is written.

Every word of scripture is God-breathed.

I would also point out to this individual that if he is going to claim that Paul taught Anti-Nomianism from a Jewish point of view, he will also have to accuse Peter of the same, since He was the one whom received the vision to abrogate dietary laws. He will also have to accuse all the apostles whom confirmed the same in Acts 15, when they excused all the gentiles from the vast array of Mosaic Law.

Because Scripture is indeed inspired, with patience and love you ought to be able to win this brother. There will always be scripture that will shed light upon falsehood.

As a side note, I have heard that there are a lot of Messianic Jew's whom are very uncomfortable with Paul's writings.

This is the reason Paul is so chastised and even beaten and ultimately killed. For putting Grace above the Law. This is the greatest statement I have found in the bible about Grace, without it we have no Grace.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

By the full Grace of the Father the Son is Grace to His won Body the Church and The Son is pure Grace in presenting this Body to the Father that He might have son's in His house.

God to the Son is a Father and God to the Father is a Son.

This is our all in salvation, even before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:2-6 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

And then even making it happen in the Good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What Grace this is and it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit by the revelation of Christ in the believer and us being recipients of us able to walk in the Spirit in Christ and Him being able to come through us as He is. For in this world, "as Christ is so are we".

How can a Messianic Jew come to this great revelation which stretches everything they have been taught to the breaking point where they must denounce all of their Jewish all, and accept Jesus as their all and their life with the life of the Son of God now living in them.

They are no longer Jews, but Messiah birth Christ-ones; Christians as all Gentiles in Christ are the same. None other can claim any preference before God, It is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Snufalapagus: Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying we can take portions of Scripture, at our choosing, "with a grain of salt", deciding for ourselves which portions we are to obey, and which portions are merely historical? And that everything beyond Romans is confusing?

The fellow I mentioned at the start of this thread basically has that same view -- that he can decide which portions of God's Word are applicable and relevant, and which aren't. Personally, that would cause me great fear and trembling.

It was Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who said (2 Tim 3:16) "all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteouness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work"

That seems like much safer ground to me.

Snuf.

Careful brother. This is how cults start. When someone is unwilling to listen to godly brothers and sisters around him, and thinks that God talks "the truth" directly to them.

Not saying this is what you believe, but only to "test the spirit" when hearing.

Praise God that you have an ear to hear the Lord!