I am in a discussion with a lost person who says I have not proof of how the apostles died? He is right? Does anyone know where the evidence can be found? I am trying to prove to him that men would not die for something they knew was a lie and that none of the apostles recounted their stories that Jesus was who he claimed to be even at the point of death. Yet, I can't prove it other than wha t others say tradition says.
I am in a discussion with a lost person who says I have not proof of how the apostles died? He is right?Hi TexasThis has to do with the nature of proof. History was written by the 'winners' so it is always slanted. There is no such thing as uninterpreted history.Modern history has a level of 'proof' unknown to earlier historians. Film and audio archive especially. However, ancient history is somewhat different. There is more documentary evidence of the existence of Christ than for the existence of Julius Caesar, but the question remains 'can we prove the existence of Julius Caesar?' To a reasonable man? yes. To someone who does not want to believe the evidence? No.Some parts of the New Testament were written within 20-30 years of the events they record. Most historians would give their right arms for this kind of documentation. The problem lies in the fact that historians generally reject the miraculous, so they reject much of the Bible. However, whenever it is possible to check the background of the Bible, in locations or traditions or the use of particular words, the Bible always proves to be 'eye-witness' accurate. There are very few individuals that can be traced outside their biblical record. But the few that can show that the Bible record is absolutely consistent with what is definitely known about them; their dates of rule and their specific titles etc.I think you are on the right track even if you can't produce the skull of an apostle with an attached stone, dated and signed.:-? It was not just the apostles but the whole community that put its life on the line with its faith in the scriptures. These included many eye-witnesses of the events who would never have endorsed the testimony to the cost of their lives if it had been inaccurate.Add to that the fact that 'truth' is one of the cardinal virtues of this faith, and a faith which knew itself to be based on fraudulent documents could never have 'conquered' in the way it did. If historians had other documentation of the quality that supports Christian history their industry would almost die as most of them make their living by interpreting obscure or legendary concepts rather than objective eye-witness reports. The multiplicity of the Bible record ie the numbers of different eye-witnesses we have is another powerful historical evidence of the authenticity of the events recorded.
Hi TexasThis article on the SI website might interest you. Christian Documents. This is the kind of thing I had in mind when I said that secular historians would give their right arms for the quality of documentation that is available to the Christian historian.
Hi Texas, Welcome!Got a few links for you...First, here is a brief overview from our fearless leader:How the (12) twelve Apostles died. From the morning email resources:How do we know 10 of the disciples were martyred?And jumping from the mention in the above article:Martyrs Mirror Happy reading :-)
Hi MikeGot a few links for you...These are interesting links but although tradition is not be ignored there is probably little here that would convince your friend. Already in the martyrdom of Polycarp documents there are clear signs of the imagination of the writers at work. Polycarp's Martyrdom and go to Chapt 13 onwardsThe one certain bloody death is James the brother of John in the Acts 12. Otherwise the clearest trails are left by Paul, Peter and John, with Thomas a strong contender too. The problem is that the traditions of the deaths of these men often come wrapped in wierd and wonderful miracles which undermine their credibility. eg Paul' decapitated head bounced and created fountains of water at each bounce! However the trend is clear; these men sealed their witness with their blood. As did so many that the ordinary Greek word for witness which is 'martyr' came to mean someone who had refused to curtail their witness even though it meant their death. Sometimes people get this upside down and say that to be a witness 'martureO' means to give your life for Christ; it doesn't but many did.
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