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Theology

Predestination and Free will

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bro_willy Oct 20, 2010

God is Sovereign, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, and Holy. He created man and gave him a free will (Gen.1:27), knowing that he would fall from his perfect state(1Pet.1:20, Rev. 13:8). This God did in His wisdom that He might reveal to all thrones, dominions, and creatures, both in this world and in spiritual places, His fullness (Rom. 9:22,23, Eph. 2:7)! God is not the author of sin even though He knew satan and man would both become wicked, because He, in His infinite wisdom, will work all things together for the ultimate good, His glory.

Man, after falling from his state of innocence, has become exceedingly sinful (Gen.6:5). His heart is wicked and depraved and in love with sin (Jer. 17:9). Because of this there is a hatred for God and His righteousness in his heart(Rom 1:30). This hatred of God and love for sin is what prevents men from being able to or even desiring to please God (John 3:19,20-Gen. 37:4).

God deeply loves all men, and desires that all men repent of their wickedness and turn to Him for salvation (1Tim. 2:4, 2Pet. 3:9). He sent His Son into the world to suffer and die for all men that they might be saved(1Tim. 2:6,1John 2:2), but knowing the heart of man, and in His foreknowledge seeing that if left to their own choice no man would desire to be saved(John 3:19,20, Rom3:11). God, in His love and mercy and to demonstrate His grace, has chosen some from every nation, tribe, and tongue to be saved, and to experience the riches of His blessing (John 6:37, Acts 13:48, Rom. 9:23, Eph. 1:4, Rev. 17:8).

So while men are responsible for their wickedness and their own damnation, those whom God has graciously chosen to be saved, through the hearing of the gospel are regenerated and given a new heart(Ezk. 36:26, Tts. 3:5), one that loves God and desire to do His will and see His purposes come to pass.

As men saved by the mercy of God, we too are to desire the salvation of all men, to offer up prayers for them all, and to not fail to share the gospel with them(Matt. 28:19, Mk.16:15,1Tim. 2:1). God has left us in the dark about who and how many will be saved(1Cor. 9:22). For all we know He could have ordained to save our entire generation, and use me or you as the instrument to do it. Let us say with Paul “Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.” 2Tim. 2:10


I have written this to try to reconcile (at least in my own mind) the seeming contradictions in scripture about predestination and free will. This says that men truly have a free will, but that it is not goodwill, and that God truly desires all men’s repentance, but has in His mercy only chosen some to grant it too. Christ’s death is enough to save all men, but only savingly effective for those whom the Father has chosen, for the rest, of their own choice, they do not receive it, and are damned in light of God's offer of mercy.

As for God’s hardening of men’s hearts the scripture does not tell us how He does it, but by a simple look at the nature and goodwill of God, I believe we could be sure it is just a removal of grace, and a giving over a man to his own evil desires while God governs the evil to fulfill His good purposes.

Thank you,
Bro_willy

sermonindex Oct 20, 2010

Oh no, not again! This subject has been hashed and rehashed so many times it's just not worth the bytes.

B
bro_willy Oct 20, 2010

haha yes I can imagine it has. I guess I didn't have to post it on here, but I was just trying to sort some things out in my mind and was hoping for some constructive feedback. I don't mean to start any sort of debates or arguments I would just appreciate some biblical feedback. Sorry again though, I know it is a touchy subject lol.

U
UntoBabes Oct 20, 2010

I'll discuss it with you if you are a "One book man". Is the Bible your most read book?
If you are not. I suggest you start there. If you still had not figured it out, then talk to other people.
You will get lots of your questions answered just by reading the Word. Otherwise, it is all yacking.

O
Oracio Oct 20, 2010

bro_willy, I will try to save you some pain here. From what I understand, this topic is not allowable to discuss on this forum, due to much contention it has created in the past. BTW, although I am not a TULIP, I thought your post was good in many areas.
Blessings,
Oracio

sermonindex Oct 20, 2010


Hi bro_willy,

I haven't finished reading your opening post. I'm stopping to comment on this statement.

Because of this there is a hatred for God and His righteousness in his heart(Rom 1:30).
This statement applies to those being described in v 18 only:

Then v 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Then v 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;


Now, I'm not saying some people don't have to repent, but I AM saying that some people's hearts are so tender towards the truth when they see it, that they immediately embrace it - unlike the group which Paul is describing in the second half of Rom 1, who, KNOWING GOD, do not LIKE to retain the knowledge of Him in their decision-making. This choice leads them into deception and eventually God actively gives them over to do whatever they like.


This hatred of God and love for sin is what prevents men from being able to or even desiring to please God (John 3:19,20-Gen. 37:4).
So, how do you account for verses like:

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I [am] Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

John 1:35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!" 37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, "What do you seek?" They said to Him, "Rabbi" (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), "where are You staying?" 39 He said to them, "Come and see." They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour). 40 One of the two who heard John [speak,] and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.

43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, "Follow Me." 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote -- Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." 46 And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!" 48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." 49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!" 50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these." 51 And He said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."


I put it to you, that 'the will' is not an entity separate from the person. Regarding salvation, God's will - His desire (will) - is that men should be saved. In that sense, all are predestined (before they were born, God knew He wanted to save them) to salvation.

Regarding man's will, his desires are made manifest when he hears the gospel and faith rises in his heart towards receiving from God the solution to the barrier of sin.

If he desires to continue in sin, he rejects the faith which rises as he hears the gospel, thus making his true heart known to God and men (as those in Rom 1), that he rejects salvation.

Of course, many of us struggle with the dilemma of how to have a relationship with God, while not entirely giving up sin. A lot of unhelpful rhetoric is spoken around these issues, which don't acknowledge that God can see each heart, and He knows how much movement a person is making towards Him, even if his fellow man cannot see anything positive. Likewise, God knows who is just keeping time with the music, while they are not in the least interested in a relationship with Him - but, they look good in public.

sermonindex Oct 20, 2010

bro_willy, I will try to save you some pain here. From what I understand, this topic is not allowable to discuss on this forum, due to much contention it has created in the past. BTW, although I am not a TULIP, I thought your post was good in many areas.
As long as it doesn't get nasty, the topic is certainly allowable, but you are right though, it can gender strife.

I guess I didn't have to post it on here, but I was just trying to sort some things out in my mind and was hoping for some constructive feedback. I don't mean to start any sort of debates or arguments I would just appreciate some biblical feedback.
Brother, with that type of honesty, I hope you find what your looking for.

N
NewCovWinDor Oct 20, 2010

OH NO!

A Cal/Arm debate is a brewin'!

:)

J
JesusIsMyLrd Oct 20, 2010

I find that the more i put my life into His hands, and tell others about Christ and the saving Gospel, the less time i have to think about theological thesis...

But this subject is still very close to my heart; i've been born again for about 7 years now, but a while back, i almost gave up on seeking God because of it.

I had been walking in sin for a few years, and couldn't get free... i was beginning to believe that man didn't have free will, and that God was just guiding everyone into heaven or hell, so that's why i couldn't get victory over sin: i was just a vessel of wrath... it almost destroyed my faith, lead me into more sin, until i realized that i did have a choice, and that choice was to either seek God, or continue to love my sin, and die in it... Praise God, i did choose to seek Him, and since then His grace has been effective in my life. Praise God!

Because of that experience, i am very cautious in this subject... i know i could just blow the whole thing out of proportion, and ignore what "Calvinists" (I use that title loosely, sorry) have to say, and call them all heretics... but i'm convinced that i must still "Live peaceably with all men" and not to strive about it.

Hope that all makes sense, and that i didn't confuse anyone.

Because of that, i probably won't share much on this thread, but i just wanted to share at least my heart...

I just don't want others to get caught into the same trap i was in...

God bless you all!

-nathan

sermonindex Oct 20, 2010

Never attempted to wrestle this one to the ground.

How about some food for thought...
which Rainman will appreciate as this was a turning point between us towards getting us both pointed in the right direction again.

We are commanded (with an imperative, not an 'if') to PRAY FOR ALL MEN.

Why we sheeple can't leave it at this is a this that our Creator has provided as part of the equiptment to the mechanisms of humanity: curiousity.


i beg to differ regarding God not telling how he hardens peoples hearts. Read Romans 1.16 - 2.11 for starters. The key to not having a hardened heart is in verse 16. Verses 18 - 2.5 spell out the explicit details.

Note that this is a result of abandoning God's truth in righteousness: the gospel of Jesus Christ (vv. 16-17).


Here's the kicker though. When men turn away from God's revelation of righteousness in Jesus Christ, according to man's abandonment of God, we see three phases here of God likewise abandoning man. That is the process of hardenening, ultimately unto 'reprobation' (the inability to discern and distinguish between right and wrong).

God created humanity to be able to choose for himself, and according to how we respond to His 'revelation to us' we walk closer to or further from truth, and ultimately God.

God responds to us according to how we respond to Him ... and this is not neccesarily an outward action so much as an inward condition. (See: II Sam. 22.26-32)

God is like a chess master. We can make any move we want, but he has the game all figured out before we ever employ movement.

There's alot more to it than these few things mentioned, but if we are to begin with a proper foundation, we have to look at things from God's perspective already revealed.

It may sound like i'm hedging, but there are some things that have to be understood about our own selves first before we can even hope to get a clear perspective.

i am neither TULIP nor Armenian.

If we just look at it from God's perspective about human nature, namely ourselves first, it really is so much simpler than all the theologics.

God Bless YOU in your pursuit of Him
irregardless of what men might
think, say, or do,

gregg

p.s. Start with Romans and II Samuel, and we can go from there.


J
jimp Oct 21, 2010

hi, i saw a sign over a door and it said entrance and i walked in and turned around and over the same door the sign said exit...as we walk thru life our futures are based on whosoever will may come and our free will but as i look back on my 71 yrs.it is all predestined by God withproof of scores of testimonies as evidence. but to argue over it would be like argueing over the door being an entrance or an exit to me.jimp just remember that a traffic signal is always red and green at the same time and it depends on where you are coming from.it is yellow for a second or two.

sermonindex Oct 21, 2010

That's cute Jim, I like that.

N
NewCovWinDor Oct 21, 2010

That's good, jimp! A bit more to that illustration than first meets the eye.

I also liked this one by Gregg:

"God is like a chess master. We can make any move we want, but he has the game all figured out before we ever employ movement."

That's perhaps one of the best illustrations I've heard on the subject. Really got me thinking.

It helps me understand that, although God has a detailed master plan, we are also free to choose... without disrupting it.

I must say, this thread has stayed quite civil, given the nature of the discussion. Let's keep up the good work!

R
RainMan Oct 21, 2010

Edited for clarity


God is like a chess master. We can make any move we want, but he has the game all figured out before we ever employ movement.

quite like that it kinda sums things up with uncomplicated simplicity.

my 2pc

I think free will can be a little misunderstood to some extent. Man was created with the ability to choose Good or evil. God has foreknowledge of every decision and outcome we can make. God is a being living outside space and time (eternity).

We perceive time as linear but God doesn't as he has no such restrictions. Man has a will and can choose between Good and evil but once the choice is made his will is no longer necessarily free(will then becomes subject to the choice he has made).

If a man chooses evil he becomes a slave to sin and if he choose Christ (truly) he becomes a bond servant to Christ. Sinners do not have free will as they are slaves to sin whislt they are under sin.

Therefore it is impossible for a sinner to choose Christ of himself. That's why God chooses us.

The only men in this world i believe with free will are born again christians as we are the only ones who are not enslaved by sin and choose between good and evil. and by the power within us hopefully we always choose good.


That ability or free will that has been restored to us comes from a sovereign act of mercy and grace from God.

conclusion
to me its very simple. God is a being who created the space time continuum. He is not subject to his own creation it is subject to him. In this space time continuum he created a race of beings similar to himself and place them within this existence. Our physical nature perceives the passage of time as linear as our physical bodies decay with time. God on the other hand is not subject to the linear perception of time that has contained our thinking. For God the beginning and end of our physical existence is a simultaneous reality for us it linear.

He is simultaneously there at the beginning and there at the end also. Thats why i call him alpha and omega

"One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

sermonindex Oct 21, 2010

Christ’s death is enough to save all men, but only savingly effective for those whom the Father has chosen, for the rest, of their own choice, they do not receive it, and are damned in light of God's offer of mercy.

Above is completely unbiblical. Do you really want me to give you Biblical aspects on this ......... matter. It causes people to rebel against God and do we want to spread a message like that .........

No further explanation from me

R
RainMan Oct 21, 2010

Its simple what did Jesus say we should do? understand free will versus predestination or preach the gospel to all men? Who is predestined and who isn't and how it all works is not something to spend so much time pondering over. He is God almighty and that isnt just a title to tickle his ego. He just simply is. There are mysteries we will not understand because we are not God. But the simple stuff like preach the gospel to all men is a worthy exhortation me thinks.

Didn't Judas receive the ministry of Jesus for 3 years even though he was predestined to fulfill prophesy and betray the son of God?

Gods provision of salvation is for all men. The gospel is to be preached to all men. All who believe the Gospel are saved. God already knows those who will accept his mercy and thus in this foreknowledge has called and chosen them.

Analogy

The roll of Dice

Imagine a game where a six sided dice is thrown. If you win the outcome is you get a free bible concordance. If you lose you must buy one for the house.

If we roll a six sided die/dice there are six possible outcomes for us as humans. 1,2,3,4,5,6. We we make a conscious decision to roll dice the outcome to us is unpredictable so we cant tell if we get a free gift or we pay for the gift. So we have to wait for the outcome to tell because our perception is linear.

The Host hands you a free gift before you rolled the dice as he knows what your score is each time before you even cast the dice. You notice the host is actually giving out free gifts to some people when they arrive and not to others. And he says he knows who will roll the winning score and those who wont.

Its not fair you argue. it doesnt make sense how can you know the outcome of and event that hasnt happened yet. The gift should be for those who have actually rolled the dice and received the desired outcome. He laughs and says "i can see the end before the beginning. everything that is yet to happen to you i have already witnessed hapenning."

"thats why i can preselect those who get the free gift because i have already seen them roll a winning hand"


Conclusion
Every single person that will accept Christ God has foreknowledge about even the ones that wont be born for another 200 years. The choice itself some say is a gift of mercy to a sinner who is unable to otherwise come to such a choice himself.

I am not alluding to an extreme of fatalism or determinism but i acknowledge that God chooses his people. Free will pertains to the ability to choose good and evil. Some argue that free will is the ability to choose salvation in our own capacity this is where the confusion lies.

sermonindex Oct 21, 2010

All people are sinners upon whom the curse of the death penalty has been pronounced: “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident… Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:10-14).

Violators of the law are sinners. God’s judgement of eternal death has been imposed upon all sinners, regardless of whether they committed the sins under the law or without the law: “For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin” (Rom. 3:9). They have all been sentenced to death as “the soul who sins shall die” (Ezek. 18:4). This sentence also applies to the New Testament: “For the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). “For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law” (Rom. 2:11-12).

On which grounds will the Gentiles, who never heard God’s law, be judged? “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ” (Rom. 2:14-16). The Gentiles all have a God-given conscience which is a law to themselves. They know that it is wrong to kill, to steal, to curse, to lie, to commit adultery, etc.

It is important that we correctly understand the nature of the atonement so that, on the one hand, we do not forfeit the blessings of the Lord or, on the other hand, entertain wrong expectations. Because of the atonement worked out by Jesus Christ on the cross we have been acquitted of the death penalty, “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed” (Rom. 3:24-25).

That is a spiritual reconciliation with God – the penalty for our sins has been paid, and in Christ we are recreated to become new persons. By virtue of Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead we can put on the new man. By virtue of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit we can be endued with divine power to live victoriously and bear fruit for the kingdom of God. But we will only receive the full redemption of our bodies at the Second Coming of Christ, when we will get immortal resurrection bodies (Phil. 3:20-21).

At present we still have mortal bodies which are subject to ageing, disease and death. We can also be tempted and sin. We are living in an imperfect world which also suffers as a result of the Fall, and eagerly waits for the revealing of the children of God (Rom. 8:19-23) when we will have glorified bodies, live under ideal circumstances and rule with Christ. That will be a time of abundance and peace, when Satan will be bound.

This situation does not prevail yet since we have to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12), enter the kingdom of G od through many tribulations (Acts 14:22), be prepared to be despised by the world (John 15:19) and to suffer for our faith (Phil. 1:29; Rom. 8:17). Diseases are one of the many reasons why believers also suffer. Some of them are healed and others not (2 Tim. 4:20). Even Paul suffered under disease and infirmities to keep him humble (2 Cor. 12:7-10).

Many healings occurred during the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus, and also during the ministry of the apostles in the early Christian church. These healings served a specific purpose to confirm the Messiahship of Jesus (Luke 7:20-23; cf. Isa. 61:1-2) and to prove to an agnostic Jewish nation and to the agnostic Gentiles that Jesus who was proclaimed by the apostles is truly the Christ, the Son of the living God (Acts 5:12; Rom. 15:18-19; 2 Cor. 12:12). After this testimony was given in a powerful and visible way, the emphasis shifted to a life of faith which is not based on signs and wonders. “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (John 20:29).

The Lord still heals people physically but we do not have a guarantee about this in the church dispensation. The human body is just as imperfect, battered and mortal as the natural creation. Together with the physical world we are eagerly awaiting the wholeness, perfection and immortality which the Lord has promised to us. “Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory… For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven” (2 Cor. 4:16-17; 5:2).

However, there are people who proclaim that the death of Jesus on the cross saves us in this dispensation from all possible curses, plagues and afflictions, including attacks by enemies, diseases and economic setbacks. All the curses mentioned in Deut. 28:15-68 are rightfully included in the curse which the Lord Jesus, according to Gal. 3:13, carried on our behalf on the cross, but the misleading assumption is made that all the blessings and prosperity are now to be enjoyed by us.

If that was the case, then curses such as pestilence among livestock, agricultural plagues, failure of crops, droughts, attacks by enemies, oppression by other nations, as well as diseases such consumption, inflammation, burning fever, tumours, scab, itching and blindness, should be completely averted from all believers (cf. Deut. 28). But that is not the case. Apart from the fact that these plagues and curses afflict unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, many believers among the nations also suffer heavily. In the case of believers, they are not cursed or punished by God but they suffer because they are living in a spiritually dark and sinful world which lies under the sway of the Wicked One (1 John 5:19). Many of them have died as martyrs for their faith, and for that reason they still wait for the wholeness and immortality which will be theirs when the Lord comes again to create all things new. “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). The new earth, in more than primeval beauty, in greater than Edenic bliss, shall be the abode of everlasting joy.

The preachers who now promise to Christians problem-free, disease-free and disaster-free living conditions are out of touch with the Bible and with the nature of the present dispensation in which we are living. They do not only give false hope to people, but question and weaken the faith of those who have not obtained the healing or economic relief for which they have prayed.

We cannot now demand conditions which will only prevail during the coming kingdom dispensation, as that would amount to instituting the kingdom here and now. That cannot be done as we are still strangers and sojourners in an evil world. In this world we will be hated and have tribulation (John 16:33).

Live in the full salvation which is offered to you because of the atoning death of Jesus on the cross. The penalty for your sins has been paid and eternal life has been given to you as a gift of grace. But be ever mindful of the fact that Satan walks about like a roaring lion with the specific aim of attacking Christians. Put on the whole armour of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Thank the Lord for every blessing that you receive from His hand. But also learn to be content with every difficulty that may still prevail. God’s grace will be sufficient for you to cope with any trial or affliction. We are in the same situation as Paul, who was instructed by the Lord to stop praying about certain problems that he experienced. He had to learn from his trials not to exalt himself and to boast about his own excellence. He looked forward to his future hope in heaven. Although we have the knowledge and certainty of full salvation, we have not yet received every blessing that the Lord has promised to us. We still have to share in the blessing of the first resurrection (1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16-18) when we will get imperishable resurrection bodies, as well as a heavenly home which the Lord Jesus is still preparing for us (John 14:1-3).

R
RainMan Oct 21, 2010

while i agree with most of your last post as i do believe the church does not fully understand Gods kingdom in the proper light of kingdom now kingdom yet to come(eschatology).

I would respectfully beg to differ on the fact that the healings during the early church was some sort of dispensation for that time predominately.

While i see dispensation in the bible such as "the law" vs grace. The power / dunamis to perform such miracles came from the enabling presence of God = The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the promise of the new covenant. The holy spirit is also our foretaste of Gods kingdom. We partake of Gods kingdom by the power of the Holy Ghost. So i would disagree and say that the holy spirit poured out on believers in itself is the dispensation of the new covenant. We cannot assume any later dispensation without biblical eveidence that explicitly says so. We cannot look at things as they appear and say we are in a different dispensation, because the bible doest support such a view. The holy spirit and power(love, regeneration, miracles) goes hand in hand. No Holy Spirit = No power, No Power = Build up on your most holy faith.

Conclusion

Anyone who genuinly has recieved an infilling of the Spirit will experience real power.

You want real power then get some real Holy Ghost in you.


You want to see a miracle you don't have to look too far. He took a wretched pathetic sinner like me and gave my spirit life. What miracle is greater than that?

People being raised form the dead is a minor miracle. Salvation in my opinion is the greater amongst miracles.

Isnt it funny that when the church stopped seeing the miraculous power of the holy spirit, there was also a surge in demonic doctrines and false conversions.

Where there is no power people struggle with sin.

sermonindex Oct 21, 2010

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.--Rev. 1:5

The great cause of all our blessings is the love of God. It was a love shown to the unworthy and unclean. What is it that the blood of Christ accomplishes in behalf of every believing soul? First, there is its efficacy Godward. It atones for the guilt of sin. It answers every claim of that righteous law which our transgressions had dishonored and assailed. It removes condemnation that that law pronounces over every soul that fails, as touching the law. The blood atones for the sinner, and places him not only in a position of freedom from guilt, but of actual acceptance (Rom. 5:9). Then there is the efficacy of the blood manward. It washes us from the sins of defilement. It sets us free from its tyranny. "Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sin by his blood" (ASV). The blood of Christ emancipates us from the bondage and service of sin. If we would know this freedom we must claim by faith that which is already ours by God's gift in Christ.


Watchman7777,

The dispensation ideas you present are nowhere found in the scriptures and betray God's mercy through His Grace, namely Jesus Christ. He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, not in some certain dispensation.

God does not respect a person because they have or have not done any certain act. It is an issue of the condition of a man's heart. AS we walk in believing God, He reveals Himself further to us.


God always has and ever will heal my body, even as those within my household; and even if He doesn't, He remains the only One that will ever be served here. This is seen as part of the foretaste of what is coming, and it is so sweet.

Healing and salvation from sin are very misunderstood.

There are many reasons we can find that people do not recieve either, however, ultimately it is a matter of will a person depend and rely ON GOD ALONE or not.

Those thinking they might or might not get healed have not recieved a revelation from God that HE IS our HEALER of all the ways we "miss the mark", i.e., sin, be that of a physical nature or not.

Ultimately, it is according to what one believes and does as to why we get the results we deal with in our lives. If we cannot be completely confident IN GOD ALONE to deliver, restore, and preserve whatever he promises in Holy Writ, there is a sin problem somewhere. It's called unbelief which leads to idolatry, and ultimately becoming reprobate.
(WE ALL are like this to a greater or lesser extent, yet as we reach in growth deeper into Jesus Christ, the True Vine, our outward circumstances change according to His consecrating us to Himself.)

Redemption was a one time act before the foundation of the world. Salvation is a perpetual walking into greater fulness of relationship with our Father in Jesus Christ.

You said that there were things stated in this thread to be totally unbiblical . . . and i'm thinking 'no kidding'. The bad part is you come and place personal opinions before and after scrpture and state them as fact. It's not that most of it is not true, because most of it is. It's just that, the little leaven introduced in it can ruin everything.

i am not saying i myself am not guilty of this, because often i am . . . and often realizing it a day late and a dollar short. What i TRY TO DO is speak only from God's revelation to me through experiences lived out.

Sincerely,
phaney

p.s. When you remember the death of Jesus, why do you eat the bread?

R
rbanks Oct 21, 2010

Rainman,

The most important thing that we should never do is blame God. When man’s understanding results in blaming God for the reason many go to hell, then I will have to disagree.

The problem the many have in explaining predestination is that one side ends up blaming God that many souls are going to hell because they were not one of the lucky one’s whom God decided to choose.to eternal life.

The problem that many have with the other side is that their explaining gives man the credit for saving himself because he was able to choose eternal life, so the debate continues.

This is sad because man is having a problem with understanding God’s sovereignty with his responsibility. We have all kinds of beliefs such as being baptized as a baby makes you one of God’s chosen one’s. We have others believing that they will be chosen because of their works. There are too many to even name.

Jesus said in John chapter 3 to Nicodemus a ruler of the Jews that man must be born again from above. He goes on to say that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless He is born again of water and of the Spirit. He also goes on to tell us that God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. God does not owe us anything He chooses us to eternal life by His Son. Jesus even said that no man can come to the Father but by me. The Father chose His Son to redeem us and has chosen us in the Son. The sovereignty of God’s choosing is based on His Sons redeeming work finished on the cross. The responsibility of man is to believe in this redemption or else he will perish for there is no other way God will accept him apart from His Son.

When God says that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy it is clear that He has already told us that this mercy is through His Son. God will have mercy on any and everyone born on the earth through His Son if only they believe to eternal life.

Jesus told some unbelievers from the book of John in chapter 6 because their heart was hard toward Him that no one could even come to Him and have eternal life unless the Father would draw them. This proves to us the sovereignty of God’s choosing if one’s heart is hard toward the Son then God will not chose that person to eternal life. God has turned everything over to His Son, the whole world will be judged by how they relate to the greatest sacrifice of love ever to be offered to them.

No one in heaven or hell will ever say that God is partial because He rolled His dice and decided to chose some to heaven and others to hell. No, no, never will God be blamed; the only partiality shone will be according to how one relates to His beloved Son.

Romans 10:9-15 (KJV) 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Blessings to all!

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