So as I said I would I decided to start this thread to discuss the Body of Christ and where a Pastor may land in that body.
I believe we can all agree that Christ is the head of the Church as presribed by Ephesians 4:15, Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18, Colossians 2:10. Christ is the one and only head. So I wish to discuss where does this leave someone in authority?
There are two answers to the question.
The first is, 'crucified with Christ', like the others in the body, and, 'submitted to one another', like the others the body.
The second is, at the bottom. They are the feet. They bear the weight of responsibility and service, and, they lead.
This is why there is so much about feet in the Old Testament. The 'path' that we take, is where we either MAKE our feet go (Hopefully in paths of righteousness.), or, where we follow them as they lead us according to our whims. Elders (feet) and those responsible for guiding the body should have given up whims long ago.
ABOVE ALL, their obedience to the word of God should not be in doubt, BEFORE they are invited by the flock, to lead it (in company with other elders).
The body should recognise in them a submittedness to God demonstrated by the fruit of the Spirit; service, prayer, Bible exposition and. exercise of the gifts of the Spirit.
I would put transparency with money pretty high, (I don't mean, telling everyone what they are given from lovegifts), by way of regular business meetings to inform the flock, discuss income and its disbursement on behalf of the assembly (eg to rental, utilities, missions, resources, expenses etc), with their agreement.
Discretion over private matters known to them because of their status as leaders, especially if these had been shared privately, is essential.
Interesting and quite logical :) THank you for this, to me your conclusion makes sense also I recognize someones body looks quite silly when the feet try to take the place of the head. :)
So I wish to discuss where does this leave someone in authority?
May I suggest that some of the answers to this question lie in 1&11 Timothy and in Titus. There Paul is writing about practical matters regarding the church. Also in 1Corinthians the writer gives us much practical admonitions on what the church should look like and how it should function.
The bottoom line is that we all work to serve the other, that we esteem the other beter then ourselves. While the elder demonstrates this in its maturity, he is also responsible to see that no leaven is present in the flock that will contaminate it. (Know how much leaven it takes to contaminate dough? Very little. Very little, so little it is almost beyond comprehension how so little can effect a glob of dough so large - I shold know, I love to bake with yeast.)
In 1Corinthians 12 Paul uses the body as an analogy to demonstrate how the church should function. Our human bodies just work together with no argument on which of it is the better - the parts just do the job they were crafted to do by its creator. No question, no doubt. Now when some cells mutate you have problems which will kill. In nature we call this cancer; in the spiritual we call it sin: both kill, eventually. When a disease invades the body the immune system will work TOGETHER to rid it from the body. When anything hurts, pain will inform the mind how a certain part needs to be coddled and protected from further harm.
Brother, this analogy is so beautiful I can hardly write more. I am so in awe....
ginnyrose
If you take a close look at the early church, you find that Paul went about appointing or ordaining elders in every church he established. These elders were overseers of the body in that place. It seems there was always a plurality of eldership. If you look at the terms used for bishop and elder in the NT, you fill find these two terms used interchangeably. They are simply ones who were given oversight of the body. Leadership is necessary.
Pastors in particular are a gift given to the body for the maturing, fitting out of the body. They are one of five equipping gifts given to the body as described in Ephesians 4. All five are necessary in the body to thoroughly equip the body to do the work of the ministry. Sometimes an elder is gifted or called to be a pastor. Sometimes an elder is not a pastor.
I know is the modern church we have become accustomed to the leadership model of pastor, assistant pastors, associate assistance pastors, assistants to the associate vice assistant pastor, etc. :-) And, this structure is not necessarily evil, but is also, in most cases, not the model outlined in the New Testament.
Pastors are equipping ministries, gifts to the body, who work alongside apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers for the equipping of the saints. Biblically, that is about the only description I see of how they "fit" into the body.
In the third chapter of 1st Timothy, the qualifications of supposedly to be pastors and deacons were laid down.
Points to ponder:
1. Who appoints the pastors and deacons, the elders?
2. What is the scope of their responsibility and privileges,
who sets them.
3. Do the pastors have the exclusive claim to preaching, to the pulpit and other church affairs.
4. Who are the elders, who determines their status, the pastor? How do they minister to the church.
5. What is the difference of an elder with a pastor, or a deacon.
6. Is the supposedly pastors mentioned in 1Tim chapter three
are one and the same with the elders as referred to in the first chapter of Titus.
7. How about the other members of the church can they also preach, take teaching or leadership responsibilities.
1. Who appoints the pastors and deacons, the elders?
In many cases it was an apostle that established a work that appointed the elders. Certain teachers and prophets ordained Paul to begin his work as a apostle,(Acts 13) but the calling to be a five fold minister is from God. No one can choose to be a pastor, apostle, etc. God chooses. Mature, spirit led leadership can be led by God to set apart and ordain into active work in their calling. One cannot desire to be a pastor if that is not his calling. One can desire the office of a bishop/elder.
2. What is the scope of their responsibility and privileges,
who sets them.
I would simply say we need to look at what the NT tells us about each.
3. Do the pastors have the exclusive claim to preaching, to the pulpit and other church affairs.
It really depends on the body and the structure of the body. In our body (we are still small in number) the only one in eldership is called to be a pastor. He does not exclusively preach and teach, but recognizes ministry gifts in the body and several of us teach and preach. He, as an elder, is responsible for church affairs and has carried the vision that God gave him since the inception of our fellowship. I think this Biblical. Other elders will be set in as we grow.
4. Who are the elders, who determines their status, the pastor? How do they minister to the church.
The elders are the overseers. Pastor is simply a five-fold ministry gift to the body. Pastor is not synonymous with (head guy) Biblically although that is how many churches are structured. They are ordained by existing leadership, however this ordination should governed by the leadership of the Holy Spirit, not by the whims and decisions of the flesh.
5. What is the difference of an elder with a pastor, or a deacon.
Elder/Bishop = Ordained overseers of the body. An elder can have the gift of pastor, but this is not necessary. (Note, elder is not equal to "church board" as most of us have experienced it.) Deacon = diakonos = servant leader.
These are people in the body who serve the body in various ministry functions. Stephen was a deacon along with six others I believe. The apostles set them apart to oversee the meals on hooves program to the widows.
6. Is the supposedly pastors mentioned in 1Tim chapter three
are one and the same with the elders as referred to in the first chapter of Titus.
1 Tim. and Titus make no mention of pastors. They both talk about the office of bishop/elder.
7. How about the other members of the church can they also preach, take teaching or leadership responsibilities.
Absolutely! Praise God there needs to be room for all in the body to minister and do the work of the ministry. I praise God when leadership recognizes the moving of the Holy Spirit and the giftings in the body and is not afraid to allow these people to minister openly. Praise God for leaders who are not "threatened" by other's gifts, but recognize that they are simply called to build the body and will do everything in their power to make sure that happens.
Just some of my thoughts on your questions.
Travis you make some very beautiful points in regards to the pastor and elder issue, I call it an issue because many pastors believe they are elders and I have meet with elders who had zero authority other than deciding what happens with money.
I believe we have taken the offices of ministry and simply clumped them together I don't believe they ever had people specifically prescribed to preach or teach however the elders being overseers could see and identify people of the body who were gifted and if they saw fit appointed them. This however didn't give the pastor any kind of authority over the Elders.
Many believe the Pastoral position has authority over the congregation, I believe their only authority over the congregation is to preach, plain and simply. Something to be noted is that Pastoring was a gift not an office.
I'll give an example, Say I am new to the church and my car breaks down and I need help fixing it. I would then be able to go to the Elders and they as elders would simply recognize who in the body was gifted in mechanics and would be glad to help me. This is the same for the position of pastor they were simply people identified as being gifted in preaching.
I would also note that in MOST cases there were multiple elders to avoid and prevent abuse of power which is why the Elders had to be recognized as one ABOVE reproach and blameless.
However we now have pastor go on power trips and think they are above all and can do anything they want. In our modern system that is it is the elders job to keep the pastor in check and humbled on his authority. 1 Corinthians 14 should be how the church operates but now we only have one pastor and to me that is a straying away from the New Testament Church.
Hi mguldner,
There was a thread a while back, which was very helpful in learning about the historical differences between terms like 'pastor', 'elder' and so on, as they appear in scripture. I can't remember how the thread started, and I don't seem to be able to find the first page - and I'm not sure if there is a link on the page anymore, so that one can read the whole thread, but you and Travis would find it well worth the time.
It's called: What is a pastor, and what do they do?
I would be grateful if the first moderator who sees this post, would kindly dig up the link to its first post, so that the discussion can be followed in an orderly manner.
Thank you to Greg, Paul or Christian for your help in this.
mguldner: I would say it is perfectly Biblical to say that a pastor, just as an apostle, prophet, evangelist, and teacher, exercise some degree of spiritual authority in the body, but only as they submit themselves to the body as servants. Maybe a better way to say it is that they are called to serve the body in the role of equipping the body to do the work of the ministry and through that service they ultimately find themselves leading the body from that position. They are often called of God to spend great time in the word and in prayer as the apostles who appointed Stephen and the other original deacons were called to do. This being the case, they are typically looked to by the body as those who are more mature, fathers and mothers in the faith so to speak and from this position lead.
Elders are called to oversee the body and exercise authority over the body (Godly authority, not fleshly authority.) They are said Biblically to rule over the body. An "elder" who simply makes financial decisions is not a true elder at all even thought the particular church structure he serves in calls him such. An elder is an elder by definition, not by label. He may be a very great man of God who does great things in the church, but he does not oversee the body in that place and so is not Biblically an elder. Elders are called to minister to the body.
There are many local assembly's with a typical pastoral structure that are healthy and are doing great things for God. I don't think we can simply make a blanket statement and say a pastor led church is wrong. It just does not follow the pattern set down in the new testament and in my opinion will result in the body being shortchanged in a sense and not growing up as it would if the Biblical structure were followed.
True, some pastors are self focused and on a power trip. But it is important to realize that not all are this way and many powerful men of God are leading traditional pastor-led churches and are being used mightily of God in the process.
Alive-to-God: I remember a couple of good threads on this topic as well. It is worth research.
Ah Travis you seem to point to what I hadn't quite realized, I was speaking from experience rather research and actuality. I apologize for this, I acknowledge your very valid point that not all are the same or curropt but I agree there are some very awesome ministries that use this type of model. I believe that maybe its important not to focus exclusively on a model because from my personal experience when we fuss over model we take our focus off of Christ though our intention maybe good we miss the point.
I believe if we keep our focus on Christ rather than a man or a system we may very well be on the greatest track of all and Christ will lead us according to His Glorious Will. I still feel that the Pastor is a gifting rather than an office. Though one has authority I agree with the point we are to submit ourselves to one another in humble service whether we are preaching or the guy that takes our trash :) 1 Corinthian 14 is my goal though and I know for sure I don't have all the answers yet nor the maturity level to be an elder. ;)
Here is the thread
Who are pastors and what do they do?
There is another thread Are official pastors unbiblical?
I believe we have taken the offices of ministry and simply clumped them together I don't believe they ever had people specifically prescribed to preach or teach however the elders being overseers could see and identify people of the body who were gifted and if they saw fit appointed them. This however didn't give the pastor any kind of authority over the Elders.
Francis Schaeffer wrote the following...
Paul implies in 1 Timothy 5:17 that there were two kinds of elders: ”Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.” Here, then, is an indication that in the early church some elders gave special attention to preaching and teaching. That is, there are elders who are especially committed to preaching and teaching the people, as it is expressed here, ”labour in the word and in doctrine.”
Also, in Acts 20:28 Paul said, ”Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Notice how the elders are given a double charge. They are to watch out for those who will bring in false doctrine. They are called upon to exert discipline, but they are not only to be like a court, as if this is their only or their chief function. They are also to feed the flock. They have a responsibility to see that the church is not anemic. The elders are not to forget either side: Both are necessary.
They must see that the Word of God is brought to the church so that, on the one hand, false doctrine and false life are kept out (or if they arise, that discipline is applied) but, on the other hand, that the church does not dry up and wither.
They are to feed the church by the Word of God. This surely has the concept of teaching, but the use of the word feed carries more with it; it implies that the church is to live. The officers have a responsibility for maintaining real life in the church.
In Christ,
Ron
Having been in housefellowships for some years, I would like to add some thoughts about body ministry.
Some of you will recognise a same old same old theme here, but I would remind you that it's biblcal, and that's important. This is not my opinion; this is God's inspired illumination to Paul, of how best to explain (and define), how the gathered assembly is to function. We all know there are three famous chapters - I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14.
As a baseline for understanding 'body', we know we are made in God's image. Our physical bodies tell us about God (thereby). If you've never thought about that, it's worth meditating upon.
Further along the line in this thought is that birth is modeled on God's image too. This means that natural birth is modeled on new birth, and not the other way round. So, if you want to understand 'new birth' which we cannot 'see', there is much in understanding the changes which take place in the baby's heart, brain and respiratory system when a he (she) is born.
Some things happen because we are alive full stop. Other things require thought, or planning, or training, co-operation (and so on). As we see in many churches today, it is possible to do these from a carnal perspective, constantly over-riding the Holy Spirit's leadership - which is not what Paul conveyed.
When I worked in obstetrics, in one month we had three babies born, all males, who had a part missing from their right arm. In one, it was the hand. Another had a stump below the elbow. The third had no elbow, just some skin tags in a little cluster. All of these children were otherwise sound. All of them would grow up with a natural left hand, developing dexterity with it, whether they would have been right-handed had become irrelevant. Their brains would develop the neural pathways required.
When they were old enough, they would be given artificial additions to replace what was missing, and now they would need to develop new neural pathways to make best use of these tools. Biblcally, this translates into being completed (usually translated 'perfected' in the New Testament) by Christ.
I've used this example, because it is an easy way to make a distinction between natural thinking, and spiritual thinking. When we are first born again, we bring all the instinctive movements and training of our former lives with us, and these have to be transformed by the work of the Holy Spirit and our co-operation with Him - to be changed - to be retrained to function by a new set of rules (and I do mean 'rules'), to keep healthy order.
The thought that I had about arms and legs, again, is quite easy to work out. If you are a foot, you can't do without any of the leg to which you are attached, but if you are the ankle on that side, theoretically - although you would be crippled without your foot - you can manage, while the other foot and ankle bear a disproportionate strain. If you have a healthy foot which you choose not to use, you are probably crazy. Yes?
I hope this is making sense.
Thinking about the arms, the similar is true. Most of us have two hands, and we would never think of asking someone else to help us tie our shoelaces with one of our hands and one of theirs, because we expect our hands to co-operate with each other to accomplish this task when needed. Likewise, why would we not use a hand if it exists? No good reason I can think of.
In the Spirit, the need for both hands to co-operate with each other is obvious, but when the hands are resting from their labours, they need not be near each other - except by choice. In other language, friendships may develop between members of the body because they serve the Lord together. But, it's not a sin if such friendship does not develop, as long as there is no stress in the separation.
Of course, not every 'hand' is just one person. Sometimes it's a large group who have a burden for a certain kind of service to the church, the local community, or evangelistic mission, for instance. (I'm trying to keep it simple but I know this is an over-simplification.)
Likewise, just because people are related (say by marriage), doesn't necessarily mean they have the same spiritual gifts, or serve in the same ministries (and so on). Quite a lot more could be said about the distinction between natural ministry between spouses in marriage, and the spiritual ministries to which as individuals one or both may have been called. I would like to generalise and say that if everything is good in their marriage, there is no hindrance to their spiritual service.
We all have to be careful not to get caught up in other people's ministries, even though the opportunity may be there. In this sense, we need to STAY within the area which God desires to become our comfort zone spiritually. If the Holy Spirit says 'don't do that', it's a good idea to obey Him, and give ourselves to everthing else we know we should be doing. (I don't mean this is 'easy'. It may be anything but.)
Sometimes, we are to be RESTING. We may be in a winter season, when we feel drained, isolated, tired, bored, attacked, or plain idle, and it would be naturally comforting to escape to where the action is; but if we seek God, He will strengthen us to wait, and grow, and put our roots down more deeply, and lead us safely to new pasture as well as to the next stage of our proper ministry, by which the other members of the body will be more gloriously edified.
This matter of growth is a bit of a mystery, but obviously, it happens best when the WHOLE body is able to function both in action, and in rest, according to the ministry God has given each part.
For instance, looking at the Head, we note that the ears never 'see' each other, and they may not even hear the same things. Further, the body picks up other signs of sound, such as vibrations, quite apart from the ears.
Likewise, the eyes have special ability to see in the dark, possibly helped by the hands and the feet when clarification is necessary about (eg) the solidity of a surface, or the measure of a doorway. And in many other ways we could make claims for the amazing way parts of the body can cover for those which are disclocated or sick. But this is not at all what God wants to see in His church.
It goes without saying that if we sit on our hands, we get uncomfortable in both places, as well as getting pins and needles and suffering temporary loss of function. This in itself should warn us away from cessationism, although I venture to say that many 'cessationists' are led by the Holy Spirit if they know the Lord.
The work of God in a saint is possible because of His relationship with the saint, and lack of change (growth) in a saint points either to a blockage between him (her) and God, or, a total lack of REAL relationship.
Again, it goes without saying that if churches are filled with people who are not part of the body, or don't even know they are valued and God has a use for them if they would agree to be joined to Him, those body members who are attempting to function will notice how sluggardly all movement feels. And, they are bound to be lacking in the nourishment the non-functioning parts would provide if they were moving.
(I realise there can be many different ways to arrive at this scenario, but my point is mainly that the LIBERTY to move is necessary before movement can happen. Sometimes there is a great deal of noise and overthrowing of tables, before change liberates those who are bound. Sometimes it is the bound people who are hugging their chains, even though the prison door is open. I know that too.)
When a small number of people begin to overcompensate for lack of function and flexibility, unhealthy imbalances set in. We all know what that looks like ... But ...
Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Isaiah 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, [and] the excellency of our God. 3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. 4 Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompence; he will come and save you. {fearful: Heb. hasty} 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. 7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, [shall be] grass with reeds and rushes. {grass...: or, a court for reeds, etc} 8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it [shall be] for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err [therein]. {but...: or, for he shall be with them} 9 No lion shall be there, nor [any] ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk [there]: 10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
These things are all true of an assembly where Jesus Christ is magnified, where real worship is offered in the Spirit, and where the gifts of the Spirit are free to operate. If God truly is going to reign as Head in His body, then every member has the anointing to enable them to function in their part.
I John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life. 26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
These are the kind of things of which Paul reminded Timothy about his ministry in his place and time, which also apply to us. Simply not using our spiritual gifts will lead to the buried (unmultiplied) talent syndrome.
It is really necessary to be live in the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit and to keep moving forward in God as individuals, that when we are together we have bread for our brethren, and to understand that as we break that bread to one another, it will be multiplied, and, we may find we have received some new gift from on High, because of our faithfulness.
In all this
John 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Let's not be deceived in our thinking. God knows if we have secret ambitions to be great, and we're just going through the motions of service because in our hearts we are hoping to be called to a higher seat.
Christ GENUINELY was the Elect servant who did every bit of His Father's will, and if we GENUINELY identify with Him in His lowliness, we will be like Him when we see Him. Never mind where we may sit at His table one day.
Thank you to those who read the whole post. Blessings.
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