David Clotfelter Sinners in the hands of a Good God

I have never read the book but if you enjoy that read I would presume you would enjoy Jonathan Edwards Sermon, "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" I believe this is what its called but definitely has thinking along the same lines as Brother Clotfelter may have.

Well I guess this just shows that I am not reformed, I don't believe God ordained the fall of man however I believe He in His infitude knew very well what man would do. So the next question from that thinking is if God knew man was going to fall why then did He create man knowing this information?

The answer is Love, God wanted us to choose to Love Him as oppose to have to Love Him. If we were made without free will we would be mindless drones forced to Love which if you have ever tried forcing someone to Love even if you are sucessful it isn't Love because it doesn't come from a chose but an obligation.

[by mguldner on 2010/11/9 22:03:51
...So the next question from that thinking is if God knew man was going to fall why then did He create man knowing this information?

The answer is Love, God wanted us to choose to Love Him as oppose to have to Love Him...]

I was thinking this in regards to people who wants to have kids. If you ask them, pretty much the answer you get is because 'they love kids--that's why they want kids'. Seldom you have people in their 1st reason/sentence say because 'they want kids to love them and that's why they have kids'. Of course, if you prod further and get them to think, they will certainly say , 'yes, they do want kids to love them'. Of course, there's always the possibility that the kids may end up hating them, though that will not stop them from having kids.

Thus, for me when I hear people say God created man because He wanted people to love Him, I will prefer to phrase it first and foremost, because 'He love us--that's why he created us' (rather than the 1st reason as He wanted us to love Him).

Also, another thing that always come to my mind is this.

Because we and the people we share the gospel to always want the 'power/decision' to be in our hands, we want to know the answer. Its normal. We want the security to know that we can decide to be saved.

However, when it comes to history--Israel was chosen and not the others, we don't keep questioning this right. Why? Because we and the others that are sharing the gospel with--theirs and our salvation will not be affected whether God choose Israel only or God choose 'everybody'. We can give all sorts of reason from God is chosing 'a holy people' for Himself, we don't know why He did that etc, but the main reason why we don't agonize over it is because it does not affect ours or others ability to control the decision to be saved. That's the real reason.

I think its important that whatever it is we believe in--be it God choose us or we choose Him, is to not give up seeking after Him, even if somewhere in our mind we feel that we are rejected by Him.

Take the Gibeonites (Joshua 9,10) for eg. They were bound for destruction by God BUT did they just give up since God said they were to be destroyed or did they fight God. Nope, they were willing to go to any lengths to be saved. And so their deception on being from a far away country. And God did spare them, even helping them by letting the sun stand still and giving the Amorites over to Israel when they attacked the Gibeonites. For me, if people were to be afraid/unsure of which 'doctrine is right', I will quote this to them.

This also reminds me of Nineveh where God withdrew his destruction of the city which He has declared. Why. Because the people repented of their ways.

I understand your first post and quite agree, God is Love and so He created us with the intention and desire of Loving us so much as to Send His Only begotten Son to die for us. How great is that?

Israel was chosen not because they were special but because the inhabitants of the Promise Land was so incredibly wicked on top of the fact that God made a promise that carried to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

As prescribed in Deuteronomy 9:5 "It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Salvation and promise was given based on the Glory of God and His divine will, we do have a chose whether to accept or reject God's will for us, as we see that the Israelites did through their Unbelief. As suggested in Number 14:9, 19-24

"Only do not rebel against the LORD. And do not be afraid of the people of the land, because we will devour them. Their protection is gone, but the LORD is with us. Do not be afraid of them.”

19 In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now.”

"20 The LORD replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, 22 not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— 23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it."

Something else to consider is God saw something in Moses, David, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc and that is the Fear of the Lord which is the beginning of Wisedom. These men believed God not only because they trusted Him but because they knew the Greatness of God so much as to Fear or Reverence Him. The Egyptians, Cannanites, Babylonians, Etc etc had no reverence for God the Father and so unbelief to His greatness resided in their hearts. We see this in Unbelievers today they don't understand not only the Love of God and the Greatness of that Love but also the divine wrath and justice of God.

[by mguldner on 2010/11/9 23:26:59

Something else to consider is God saw something in Moses, David, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc and that is the Fear of the Lord which is the beginning of Wisedom. These men believed God not only because they trusted Him but because they knew the Greatness of God so much as to Fear or Reverence Him. ...]

Reading this, a thought came to my mind. So how did they learn to trust Him???

Just think back on our own lives and others lives, how do we learn to trust someone/something. We, as an adult/teenager don't just trust someone automatically do we. Its a process where the other party show himself to exist and to be faithful. Same goes with fear, love etc.

Aye God has revealed Himself through His Son, and now through the Holy Spirit We are to be the vessels of the same Spirit to be a witness to the World.

I do hold and affirm that man plays the least significant role in their Salvation.

My apologizes I know God's mind is much higher than my peasized brain. I also agree that God knew the fall would take place its quite silly and limiting to our all Knowing Father to say He didn't and to say He caused it is quite sinful since God can't sin.

I am not really sure where I "prescribe" to as far as reformed, Calvanist, Arminian etc, I just wish to be a Christian and Follower of Christ no more, no less.

I have started to realize something interesting with these kind of threads or even discussions, its all mental and theoretical and its these theories that split the beloved Church into denominations and organizations. I am slowly learning that a relationship with Jesus matters so much more than which denomination you are or camp you fall into. So much strife occurs and the sad thing is, is most of the time the division simply happens because one group focuses on just one side of the truth while the other group focuses on the other half both are correct essentially but have a different focus.

I read the book and it's great. Sinners in the hands of a good god. Another good book that is coming out,along this topic is.Francis Chans redefining hell or something like that. I want to encourage the nay Sayers to reformed theology. It's not so much about proving limited atonement but rather being in awe that saved you. Admit you had nothing to do with your conversion. Grace grace amazing grace any chOice you made was by his grace. The point is to be in awe of his grace. The bible warns about questioning God and we must be careful to try to figure out God according to our reasoning and thoughts of justice

i resone why i find it easy to except most reformed doctrines ,like god ordaining ,and predtermining all things

is becasuse the book of acts says , he predtermins the life of man and the extent of his dwelings

and my view of god is he is unlimited by my mind and understand
he is infenity omnipresent and infently knows all things and upholds all those things in his infenit creation by the word of his power and his will is as great as he is

just by tring to comprehend the size of all the unaverses
and soula systems ,and to relise that god predetermins all the orbits of every single planat and sustains every single star wich is a sun ,by his own power ,every commat

every astariod is propled by gods power in gods predetermind direction and he does all this at one time

is mind blowing ,,,,now compare all that to the spect of dust we call the earth all the chemistry he controles all the dna in every living thing has been prederimined by gods will ,,,,now that i have my head aroung what he is doing minute by minute througgh his own dertemination

it is simple to think he has also predermined what we as spects of dust will do on the earth ,concidring all else that he does ,and concidering we recieve our own wills from the allmighty one ,,not only is it simlpe it is absured for me to think he some cant or doesnt predetermin and preordain what happens here

i cant for one minute comprehend the idea that he doest and hasnt preordained my life it just is to hard or imposable to think that

why does god still get angry with sinners ,,becasue they are supressing there concence and the knowlage that god has givern all creatours

and sinner tho dead in sin and totatly depreved ,still have the power to do better then what they do ,and to make better choices ,to not express there evil as much as they do ,,,, man has a will tho it be inbondage ,and he wills to be evils ,,for scinc the creations of the world his invisable atrubutes are cleary seen by those things which are mad even his eturnal power and god head so thery are with our excuse ,all thoh man has the power to no this he exchanges the truth that god has givern him in creation and concence ,with a lies ,and this makes god angry ,because ,it did not need to be like this ,but men have fallen deep into to there depravity and follow one another like sheep, tho god knew it would get that bad and ordained it it to be so man still as a will

if man never had a will ,then god would not be angry with sinners ,,
but he has givern them a will ,he has givern them a concernce the heaven declare the glory of who he is and earth derclares who he does thing ,scikness and suffering and deather declare his judmenat ,but man has become totaly depraved and now loves to be that way

god has the right to be angry every single day with sinfull men and he is

exelent thred brother loved reading you posts

My apologizes I know God's mind is much higher than my peasized brain. I also agree that God knew the fall would take place its quite silly and limiting to our all Knowing Father to say He didn't and to say He caused it is quite sinful since God can't sin.

I am not really sure where I "prescribe" to as far as reformed, Calvanist, Arminian etc, I just wish to be a Christian and Follower of Christ no more, no less.

I have started to realize something interesting with these kind of threads or even discussions, its all mental and theoretical and its these theories that split the beloved Church into denominations and organizations. I am slowly learning that a relationship with Jesus matters so much more than which denomination you are or camp you fall into. So much strife occurs and the sad thing is, is most of the time the division simply happens because one group focuses on just one side of the truth while the other group focuses on the other half both are correct essentially but have a different focus.

I just read this for the first time and consider it worthy of repeating.

It is so true that a body can get so entangled in the Cal/Arm debate that you can lose your focus entirely on loving the LORD. To try to figure out why and how He saves is God's business. Let's just love Him with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and let Him be God!