John The Baptist Fire of God Part 2 by L Ravenhill :The same as the Toronto Blessing or not?

Hi,I listened to this sermon by Leonard Ravenhill and hope some of you can answer some questions
1.Back in the 90s I attended a toronto meeting and this seems just same.What do you think?I noticed that it was at a vineyard conference and when I googled it appeared to be linked to John Wimber.
2.Is Pentecost the only acceptable outpouring of the Holy Spirit?Acceptable may not be the right phrase.
3.I have heard a lot of sermons on santification and repentance.What makes this one different?
I hope someone will be able to shed some light on this Sermon,thanks Staff

The sermon by Ravenhill--what you heard was crying. People were crying tears of repentance. Its not uncommon for people when they are born again or when the Holy Spirit comes to them (both saved and unsaved) to convict them of their sins and to give their lives to Jesus, for there to be tears. This is not limited to Pentecost. In the bible, you will see tears--Jesus's tears, Peter's tears when the cock crowed twice after his denial of Jesus etc.

I'm not sure of the toronto meeting as I've not seen it. I heard its false from people I trust to have discernment in this matter.Usually in false 'revival/meetings', you will get the false spirits invading and that's when you have all these weird manifestations such as slain in the spirit, clucking like a chicken, shaking uncontrollably, running uncontrollably, laughing uncontrollably etc.

I take on board your points regarding Ravenhill preaching the word of God in the vineyard setting.You could look at that both ways though.By preaching there he was giving them credibility.However after saying that if Jesus was asked to preach there he wouldnt have refused but John The Baptist would have refused.
After thinking about this all day,I have a couple of observations,the people attending the conference for the most part were probably the same people who attended false vineyard meetings in the previous weeks and months under the other leaders and what were the meetings like the week after?Did it really bring about a change.
I agree crying and weeping can signal conviction of sin but couldnt it be just another false manifistation as well.After all we are not dealing with dumb animals but intelligent beings.
On listening more closely I hear people screaming and roaring also.One arguement at the time of Toronto was that the noises etc hindered the speakers sermon and this to my ears this happened here.
Did the people repent earlier in the conference about the false manifestations linked closely to the vineyard?
Jesus would have repremanded them lovelingly if he were preaching at the meeting and John would have said bring forth fruits in line with repentance.

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

I remain unconvinced by your comments but I thank you for making me think more closely about the subject.I think Leonard Ravenhill was a great preacher and I hope I dont do him an injustice but I think he may have got it wrong this time.However I hope it is me that is wrong and that their was genuine repentance at vineyard in 1990 and the church did chance after that conference,
Thank you for your welcome comments,Staff

I guess the reason I raised the issue is that at the time I went to a meeting similar to vineyard it left me very confused.I want to see healings,miracles, and genuine repentance.Either way Leonard Ravenhill deserves his place as a great Preacher and servant of God.
John The Baptist was successful not because he preached Repentance but that he first Preached Judgement.John taught that Jesus was coming to Judge the world as well as save the world but he was coming to do the later only at that time.We preach Judgement differently today in the sense that we tell people where they are going if they dont repent,John preached this way

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

He left people thinking that they were about to be literally burned up!No wonder they were going to see him in numbers and getting baptised.
I think we cannot preach like this again until the Lord is about to come back.Hence I believe in an end time revival.
Thank you again and thank God for Leonard Ravenhill.

I agree crying and weeping can signal conviction of sin but couldnt it be just another false manifistation as well.After all we are not dealing with dumb animals but intelligent beings.

It can be wild emotionalism, or a sincere conviction or a mixer of spiritual and carnal emotion, God knows.Its because of the lack of spiritual discernment that we dont often locate the source of affections or emotions.And whats more importing is whether or not there is a lasting fruit coming out of that emotional experience and decision. Jonathan Edwards wrote a book on religious affections, i have not read all of it but im sure its one of the best books on spiritual discernment.

I want to listen to this sermon when i get a headset. Ravenhill was really a voice from God as far as calling the church to genuine repentance, faith and holiness of heart and life. After i was saved i cant describe how much blessed i was by reading Why Revival Taries, it made me hunger and thirst more for God.

Hi,I think its fair to say that Leonard Ravenhill preached the sermon to call the people to genuine repentance.Staff

Ok, this got me worried some because I actually cried way before they cried in this sermon--in fact in the early first few minutes it started (and continued throughout) and mine wasn't emotional. And no, I did not listen to any of the other sermons beforehand. I just listened to this part 2 because I was interested in the crying but forgot that there was crying (which I take it to be the presence of the Holy Spirit) until halfway through my tears and I remembered and so turned the volume up to hear the crying. My audio is not great--so the crying is not easily distinguishable and can be like static over my headset.

Thus, can someone help me with the below questions.

1) I would like to know whether there were any problems during this sermon at all and if so what the problems are (other than that Ravenhill could not continue on with his sermon. But Ravenhill actually said that God would be in the presence today or something like that at 3am that morning and that the crying sounds were music to God's ears).

2) I know that Ravenhill was not able to continue preaching because the people started crying and some people started saying out loud--I think from what the speaker say--"what must we do" and maybe a few other words which I couldn't make out what it was--which I did find distracting. Another thing, there was the sound (but no words) which is made at certain types of crying. Its like 'herrrrrhhh' or something like that. I too have sometimes made this sound while crying (although most of the time my crying is silent). In fact, sometimes when I am praying and tears start coming, I make this sound too and thus unable to say anything in prayer. I take it that this could possibly be 'groaning in the spirit' where the spirit is interceding on behalf of me to God???--any idea????--I've gotten more of this sound lately.

Pls, if there's something wrong with this sermon I would like to know because this is 1 sermon which I had the heaviest crying and brought me to pray. In fact, if the sermon was to be conducted in Greek, I will still cry. So yes, I am rather adamant in wanting to know the answer. I do not want to be misled. I know Ravenhill is a true preacher but I also want to know (after the earlier posts here) that it was God's presence during the sermon and not a false presence there because of what happened to me.

Edit : the screaming and roaring as staff had put is the words that I mentioned that was uttered by a few of them
and I did find it distracting. But I think there was very little of that and it was only about 2-3 people only (a lady and a man) and they did not say it too many times, also this was not the reason why the sermon could not continue. It was because the people there started crying????--I'm trying to recall.
Thanks.

I listened to this as well. I thought Leonard seemed rather shocked that it was happening, although he adds something to the effect that God told him it was going to..

There are alot of bizarre things goin on these days among christians or professing christians, and i have been convinced by counterfeit experiences and fauls spirits deceiving carnal christians or the lost. We have all kinds of weird manifestations today that dont result in fruits of holiness or christlikeness. Thats the test, those people who claim those wonderful experiences, do they become more holy or christlike in their heart or life or do they bear unholy fruits that are the opposite of the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruits and we have the right to judge a movement by its fruits.

Christians go from one extreme to the other, either rejecting outward emotions or manifestations as from the devil or naivly accepting them an the outward signs of the Holy Spirit. When John Fox preached under the power of the Spirit, people will shake, thats why they call them Quakers, Johns Wesley saw people fall as dead on the floor under the power of the Holy Spirit and wake up converted and praising God for his amazing grace. The history of genuine revivals of the past is full of outward manifestations and they were either from God or the devil or the flesh. There are also counterfeit revivals in these last days where the fauls spirits imitate the work of the Holy Spirit with the sole purpose to deceive those who are unstable and spiritually blind.

We are to test the spirits and see whether they are from God or not, the Lord s sheep hear his voice and follow Him. We shall know the truth and the truth will set us free, if we lean on the Spirit and heed his inner small voice, he will guide us to the path of holiness where only the saints walk.

I just want to add that a preacher with unction can deliver his sermon and people can act like devils or like convicted poor sinners or convicted saints. The preacher is not responsible for the effects of his preaching but for the faithful delivery of God s word. I hope i make some sense here.

P.S. Edited

[by StarofG0D on 2010/11/16 17:10:54

I listened to this as well. I thought Leonard seemed rather shocked that it was happening, although he adds something to the effect that God told him it was going to..]

StarofGod, your post made me listen to the sermon again. Are you talking the part where Leonard say 'isn't it amazing' as the part where you thought he seemed rather shocked? Thanks.

Hi,Elected probably hit the nail on the head below:

(I just want to add that a preacher with unction can deliver his sermon and people can act like devils or like convicted poor sinners or convicted saints. The preacher is not responsible for the effects of his preaching but for the faithful delivery of God s word. I hope i make some sense here.)

I have since listened to part one of the message which was like other sermons and was quite good.
I do see the point learn made that Leonard seemed to endorse what was going on.The only thing is that we do not know what Leonard was actually looking at at the time as we were not there and dont know how many ppople were in the conference.
Maybe somebody out there was at the conference and could shed some light?
Which brings me to another question can the Holy Spirit manifest himself in a group at the same time evil spirits are manifesting themselves in the same group?
Staff

HomeSkoolDad,
I certainly am not going to bash you --you did make a valid point.

I think that its important that we don't refuse any questioning of any pastor because even the most godly ones can and do make mistakes such as maybe endorsing wrong pastors/teachings etc. Through discussions if done in meekness and with a seeking heart, it will help people to discern what is right. I think discernment is very important because once we are misled or is under the oppression of a false spirit, its going to be so much harder to get out and even worse they will entangle others to this. Of course, by allowing these type of questionings, there will be cases where some do turn it into bashing each other etc and this is something that we all must be careful not to do. We cannot throw out the baby and bathwater just because some threads/posters will turn ugly and start judging instead of sincere questioning and answering.

Sincere asking about something/someone which at times may show the weakness of the person/teaching is important because it helps us to discern and to be careful. This is not to be construe as judging. If we deny this right of question, then we may very well end up with poor discernment which is what I have noticed elsewhere. We can still love and promote the pastor/teaching but with some advise to avoid certain portions or association with a particular person that this pastor promotes. This is real wanting to know the truth and being careful. Its taking the best of each pastor/teaching to enhance our walk with God.

Just like this sermon, I already knew beforehand that what elected said and staff reteirated to be true and that's why I was and still am keen to ensure that the move there was really from the Holy Spirit and not a false spirit. I love Ravenhill too and know that he is a godly man but it doesn't mean I will blindly accept everything. A poster here said something about Ravenhill saying always to question everything and even Paul Washer mentioned that when some people critise him, it could be true. I believe all godly people will never feel offended if their teachings etc are questioned if its done with a sincere heart really wanting to know the truth/discernment to help them and others in their walk with God.

I understand wanting to preach the uncompromising truth of God's Words, but often times if we are not careful our associations can appear to be a stamp of approval and can often times lead people astray.

To the carnal mind this may appear to be true. But Jesus also preached to publicans and sinners. I often think of Mt 10:14 in these kinds of situations. Why should not a person go, if they are being received? It is possible that many of those people may not have heard the Word like LR can preach if LR would not have gone. So is it better to stay away for the sake of his reputation?

I used to think Keith Daniel preached at some crazy places, but after thinking about it, why not?

learn: I will have to relisten to the message, to remember for sure. But I think, when the crying first started at first, his tone of voice changed, and speech slowed. Which may mean nothing, but to me he just seemed a little surprised. Which who would not be?

Hi,its been an interesting discussion and has helped me.
I do think however if John Wimber gave that sermon with the same words,tone etc exactly the same with the same spiritual manifestations that we would probably reject it as false.I know I would anyway,Staff

If there are modern day prophets, I would have to say Ravenhill was one of these. He preached many anointed messages, both convicting as well as uplifting.

Jeremiah 23:28-29 states, "Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the LORD. “Is not my word like fire,” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?"