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Which Version?

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philologos Nov 4, 2004

Michael Marlow ( http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html ) has created a website dedicated to the Bible, its texts and versions which is an excellent starting point for anyone wanting to see the basics of any version.Michael has some very strong convictions and he and I have crossed swords occasionally but this site is a wonderful tool for those who want to think about the relative virtues (and/or vices) of different translations.

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philologos Nov 5, 2004

I think this is going to go wider than just the Amplified so I am going to comment here instead on in the original thread.Greg: From my looking into it and from the conversation here it appears that the 'amplified bible' falls into the category of literal translations.I don't think it does. It is one of a smaller group that I would call expanded translations. The best known of these, other than the Amplified would be, Wuest's Expanded translations. That same site has a description of the Amplified which came out about 5 year later. 1965. Frances E. Siewert, ed., The Amplified Bible. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1965. Revised 1987. The New Testament appeared in 1958, the Old Testament in two parts in 1962 and 1964. Revised for the one-volume edition in 1965, and again in 1987. Produced by the Lockman Foundation. This version expands the text with alternative renderings and explanations added in parentheses, brackets, and other typographical devices. If you look at the Dictionary definitions of a word eg power: Strongs: dunamis - force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.Thayer: 1) strength power, ability1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth1b) power for performing miracles1c) moral power and excellence of soul1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth1e) power and resources arising from numbers1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hostsWhat the expanded versions do is to try to leave nothing out. So effectively they leave you to make the choice. The Amplified is putting into the text what another version might put into the margin. The purpose of the paraphrases was to capture the whole sense of a sentence rather than just the words.Youngs Literal Translation: for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (Joh 3:16 YLT)The Message:"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. (Joh 3:16 MSG)Actually The Message makes more 'sense' here than Young's. A first-language English speaker would have to process Young's Literal before he understood it. In fact an absolutely literal translation would bein this way because loved the God the world thus the Son His the only begotten He gave in order that all the believing (ones)into HIm not be destroyed but to hold life age-enduring Now try getting your Sunday School class to memorize that! This verse is almost unintelligable unless we make it less literal. The whole problem is 'how less literal'. Modern linguists would say that what I have done above is not a translation at all, and they dislike the distinction between literal (word for word)and dynamic (sense for sense). If you were asked to translate 'respondex s'il vous plait' into English and you translated it 'reply if it you pleases' your French teacher would mark it 'wrong'. He would say it means 'please reply'. This is the question that all Bible tranlsators have to try to answer. 'do I say what it says or what it means'. Every translation will include an element of 'what it means' even the most literal. It's all a question of degree.The get the meaning of the words, which is vital for thorough Bible study, we need something closer to the literal translation. But to get the flowing sense of whole paragraphs, which is also necessary, a paraphrase can be useful. The problem is that you will get much more of the translators' theology with the latter than with the former.It is important that while holding to the verbal inspiration of scripture we also remember that it is 'all scripture' that has been God breathed and not isolated parts of it. There is micro inspiration in every word, there is macro inspiration in whole books. Amy Carmichael used to say she believed that every translation revealed facets of truth; I think she was probably right. I used to teach foreign students, ten at a time, around a large table. I insisted that they all use a NKJV version and their own first-language version. I would often ask them to translate their version for the benefit of the other students. Often their versions would highlight the very point I wanted to make. (This is a good thing to remember if you are preaching through interpreters. You may spend 10 minutes extricating the truth from your KJV which stands in clear view in their version)With some of my work with people with learning disabilities I have used a version originally created for the deaf. (sounds strange but the 'deaf' version used very few personal pronouns; it repeats the name of the speaker or doer. This makes it easier to keep track of the actors in the story for both deaf and learning disabled folk)For my personal preference I use my KJV but for study I use, heavily, the ASV, Darby, Youngs. I have tried but been disappointed with... the list is endless!

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Nasher Nov 5, 2004

With all these translations to chose from I sometimes think it would easier for us to learn New Testament Greek! ;-) Seriously though what I would say to someone who does not know which translation to chose from is that is it a very important decision to make.

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philologos Nov 5, 2004

Seriously though what I would say to someone who does not know which translation to chose from is that is it a very important decision to make.My standard answer would probably be the NKJV. When folk ask me what I think of it I usually say; 'it is an excellent introduction to the KJV' :-P There is another element in Versions which I have not addressed here. It is much more complicated; the families of texts behind the different versions.

sermonindex Nov 5, 2004

Michael Marlowe has created a website dedicated to the Bible, its texts and versions which is an excellent starting point for anyone wanting to see the basics of any version.It appears by purusing through this fellows site that he is not a fan of the textus receptus.I found this comment amusing on the NKJV:"The "complete" Lord's Prayer referred to in this advertisement is the Lord's Prayer as it appears in the Textus Receptus (Matthew 6:13), with the liturgical doxology added to the text. But perhaps someone zealous for the "complete" prayer can tell us why we should not have an even more complete Lord's Prayer by adopting the doxology as it is found in several other late manuscripts: "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit for ever, Amen." Was it not wicked of Erasmus to put the "incomplete" form of the doxology in his editions, expunging the all-important trinitarian clause? This is the level of thinking that we have among the mindless defenders of the "complete" text in the Textus Receptus. It is grossly irresponsible for Thomas Nelson Publishers to exploit and encourage such ignorance for private gain."

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philologos Nov 5, 2004

It appears by purusing through this fellows site that he is not a fan of the textus receptus.No, he's not. He has made up his mind on most topics.This is the level of thinking that we have among the mindless defenders of the "complete" text in the Textus Receptus. It is grossly irresponsible for Thomas Nelson Publishers to exploit and encourage such ignorance for private gain."Marlowe does admit, somewhere, that he is not a textual expert/scholar. This site will not leave you in any doubt as to the convictions of its owner, but there is some great stuff here for those who are interested in the area of study.

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Nasher Nov 8, 2004

Hi Ron, I would be keen to learn about the different families of manuscripts, please continue. :-)

sermonindex Nov 8, 2004

Hi Ron, I would be keen to learn about the different families of manuscripts, please continue.I am personally a fan of the 'textus receptus' but I would love to hear Ron's thoughts also on the different streams of thought on this.

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philologos Nov 8, 2004

I am personally a fan of the 'textus receptus' but I would love to hear Ron's thoughts also on the different streams of thought on this.This is an enormously complicated topic to attempt in one of these threads. One of the issues, I think, about addressing it would be that folks who were not able to follow the details of the argument could very easily be stumbled by the bits they did understand. I think it would be best to provide some links and then interested folks (both of you ;-)) could ask questions.I am a competant amateur in these things but no more than that. I understand sufficient of the theories to listen to the proponents and make my own decision, which is pretty much the same as yours Greg.Here is an excerpt from Maurice Robinson:For over four-fifths of the New Testament, the Greek text is considered 100% certain, regardless of which texttype might be favored by any critic.[6] This undisputed bulk of the text reflects a common pre-existing archetype (the autograph), which has universal critical acceptance. In the remaining one-fifth of the Greek New Testament, the Byzantine/Majority Textform represents the pattern of readings found in the Greek manuscripts predominating during the 1000-year Byzantine era. Early printed editions of the Greek New Testament reflect a general agreement with the Byzantine-era manuscripts upon which they were based. Such manuscripts and early printed editions are commonly termed "Textus Receptus" or "Received Text" documents, based upon the term applied to the Elzevir 1624 printed Greek edition. Other editions commonly termed "Textus Receptus" include the editions of Erasmus 1516, Stephens 1550, and Beza 1598. George Ricker Berry has correctly noted that "in the main they are one and the same; and [any] of them may be referred to as the Textus Receptus."

sermonindex Jan 26, 2005

I agree with a previous poster on this thread... the issue is not which version, but which school of Greek/Hebrew text? We could all learn Greek & Hebrew... but if one is still reading a corrupted text, it wont matter.Personally I believe the Received Text is the preserved Word of God. I believe the KJV is NOT an inspired translation, however it is an accurate translation. The NKJV comes close, but when the Thees, Thy's and Thou's are dropped many verses lose their meaning entirely because you can not merely replaces those words with YOU or YOUR.This is very important issue that I believe EVERY Christian needs to investigate because 99% of believers know nothing about the versions they are reading. If one knows nothing about the version they are reading, how do they know it's the truth?Krispy

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Angyl Jan 26, 2005

Gonna hafta agree with Krispy here. I too believe the T.R. is the inspired word of God, but I will go one step further than he and say that I believe the KJV is the inspired ENGLISH TRANSLATION, of that word. 8-)

sermonindex Jan 26, 2005

There are differing definitions of what "inspired translation" means. Some take it to mean that you can correct the Greek with the KJV. I do not believe that. If you mean that it is an accurate translation because God guided the translators... then I would agree with that. But there was no new revelation in the KJV.(Angyl... do I know you from somewhere else?)Krispy

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Angyl Jan 26, 2005

I guess what I mean by that is to say that I believe that the KJV is what God WANTED us to get out of the greek originally.When some people come along and say "it says 'this' in the greek but 'that' in the K.J.V. (implying some difference), I don't jive with it. That's THEIR translation...THEIR word...not the one God intended for us to have, IMO.And yes, Krispy, you know me from R.R. The old fundamentalist crowd there, remember?

sermonindex Jan 26, 2005

AH... Angyl... I thought that was you.I agree with your assertion about inspiration... that is how I feel.Peter Ruckman and others take "inspired translation" over the edge of the cliff. I dont go there. I believe that "sect" of fundamentalism is flirting with cultism.Good to see you again!

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phebebird Jan 29, 2005

This thread is interesting to me as I have become somewhat upset as our pastor seems to think that The Message is a TRANSLATION of the Bible. Often he reads a passage that sounds only vaguely like the verse in my Bible and then, sure enough, it came out of The Message. I don't think The Message is heretical, but it is a PARAPHRASE, not a translation from the Greek. The two should not be confused. A paraphrase is always going to have a spin on it from the paraphraser. The Message can be read like a novel, but not used to really study the Bible.I like the NIV myself. I also really like the KJV. I don't think there is such a thing as an "inspired translation" of the Bible. This is because I don't think God would give an inspired translation to one language and not another. Do you think that there is an "inspired" translation of the Chinese Bible? Of the Mongolian Bible? And what about the Bible that someone is translating for the first time into some tribal language? How would they know if that is the "inspired" translation or not. It is easy for those of us who have grown up with the KJV to hold it up as THE Bible, but the level of difficulty it poses to some readers really should be taken into consideration. That is why the NKJV and NIV are also good. Keep in mind that English has changed relatively little over the years since the KJV was written. In some countries, the older translations of the Bible are truly unintelligible to today's readers. For example, the older translation of the Chinese Bible really is not understandable to your average Chinese today, because of changes in the script and in the vocabulary. Would we hold them to the same standard?

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philologos Jan 29, 2005

This thread is interesting to me as I have become somewhat upset as our pastor seems to think that The Message is a TRANSLATION of the Bible. Often he reads a passage that sounds only vaguely like the verse in my Bible and then, sure enough, it came out of The Message. I don't think The Message is heretical, but it is a PARAPHRASE, not a translation from the Greek. The two should not be confused. A paraphrase is always going to have a spin on it from the paraphraser. The Message can be read like a novel, but not used to really study the Bible.This is all to do with philosophies of translation. If your French teacher asks you what the phrase 'respondez s'il vous plait' means and you answer 'reply if it you pleases' he will say your answer is wrong. He will say you have not translated the phrase only the words. Translators all have their own philosophy of translation. The possibilities stretch from extreme 'dynamic equivalence' which is The Message end of the spectrum to 'literal equivalence' which is at the other end. A thoroughly 'literal equivalence' would be unintelligible. "in this way for loved the God the world so that the son his the only-born he_gave in order that all the believing_ones into him not should_be_destroyed but have life age-lasting" is John 3:16 using extreme 'literal dynamic' philosophy.All translations are somewhere on this line between 'dynamic equivalence' and 'literal equivalence'. God inspired the actual words, but He also inspired the sense of the words, so a translator has the task of communicating both micro-inspiration (every word) and macro-inspiration (the whole book or letter). Linguists don't usually use the word 'paraphrase'. They speak rather of 'literal' or 'freer' translation. In its philosophy of translation the KJV, coming mostly from William Tyndale, is closer to 'literal equivalence' than The Message.Let me confess... I am not supposed to like The Message; it is contrary to what I think a translation ought to be but I find again and again that, while I could never use The Message as my devotional or study Bible, it scores 'direct hits' on aspects of truth hidden from many 'better' translations. Actually, The Message is a translation from the Greek; it's just that it is a dynamic equivalence or free translation. Amy Carmichael believed that all versions revealed unique facets of truth; I think she was right.The KJV has another philosophy at work which is subtle but unhelpful. The translators based their work on Tyndale but constantly altered biblical concepts to support monarchy and official appointments. This means that the KJV is really a hostile witness when we come to trying to understand the nature of spiritual authority in the scripture. The KJV was a political exercise in bringing conformity to a diverse Christian belief in the kingdom. King James was a clever but unlikeable character, and his first act in the translating of the KJV was to removed the 'extreme' Catholics and Anabaptist elements from the translation committee. At its very inception the KJV was designed as a compromise.Nevertheless, for all its weaknesses, I still read and preach from my KJV although I frequently 're-translate' to bring out points which would otherwise be lost. And yes, where necessary, I will 'correct' the KJV from the original words of Paul which were God-breathed. The KJV is good and has been wonderfully owned of God, but it is not God-breathed.

sermonindex Jan 29, 2005

It is amazing to many that "The Message" is even sold in "so called" christian bookstores. But then again, anyone with a discerning spirit should realize that most "christian" book stores are businesses only and provide patrons with as much or more error than truth. We as believers know that it is the Holy Spirit Who leads us and guides us into all truth. I just cannot imagine the Holy Spirit wooing anyone to attempt to discover truth from "The Message". Let me give you a couple references, and you decide for yourself.KJV Matthew 24:4-5 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take Heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name,saying, I am the Christ; And shall deceive many."The Message rendering of the same text is as follows:"Jesus said, 'watch out for doomsday deceivers. Many leaders are going to show up with forged identies, claiming "I am the Messiah". They will decieve alot of people."Jesus did not say anyting about "doomsday deceievers". What about those who come in "peace and love"? Most decievers today shy away from end time prophecies and feed their "flocks" feel good fodder. I mean we have to be "sensative to our seekers" don't we? Ok, ok, let's move on to the Lord's prayer. I'm almost certain that most of you who might read this are well aware of at least the KJV text of this passage. But what does "The Message" present? As follows: " Our Father in heaven, reveal who you are, set the world right. Do what's best, as above, so below. Keep us alive with 3 square meals. Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others. Keep us safe from ourselves and the devil, You are in charge! You can do anything you want! You're ablaze in beauty! Yes, yes, yes."One very alarming thing that stands out in "The Message's" rendering is the phrase "as above, so below". One need only do a search on these words online to get an eye full of this New Age term. Peterson uses it again in Collosians 1:16. I might add that Rick Warren uses it on page one of his book "The Purpose Driven Life". In my humble opinion, anyone who owns "The Message" is open to spiritual peril. What do I read? I have a parallel bible. On the left side of the page is the KJV, and on the righ is the Amplified Bible. I read the Amplified Bible and use the KJV for reference because there is so much research and resource based on the KJV.Does reading this "version" make me right? Of course not. But it satisfies my spirit like no other version I have read.The Holy Spirit leads and guides into all truth. God is all about Truth and will not lead His children into open error. Pray about what you read. Not just bibles, but any and everything. When there is a "check" in your spirit, turn away. It's not of God. "The Message" makes my skin crawl. I have absolutely no desire to read a single word from it's pages, much less spend God's money to own it. Do all translations have an element of truth? Of course they do. That has been satan's ploy from the beginning. All deception has an element of truth, otherwise those deceived would not be so. Written in love,Lahry

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inotof Jan 29, 2005

On the subject of the message, i have to admit, i have a bit of a problem with it as well. I manage a Christian bookstore, however we are a lot more picky and discerning of what product we carry--that is why we are small, we carry quality titles not the latest "craze" or "slef help trend"--not to get carried away on that particualr tanget---The biggest problem for me is the quotes on the back of this "bible" endorsing it. One quote inparticuar is from Bono the front man for a secular rock group U2. does anyone else see a problem with someone in secular media reading this "bible" and remain unconvicted, unchallenged enough to turn around and advocate it? I'm not saying that sinners can't read the Bible or that they should not--the point is that this rock star read it--and it did not produce a change yet to help promote it they have used his name--a name heavily recognized in rock and roll media--to sell the "word". Gimme a break.

sermonindex Jan 29, 2005

First of all, I'm so glad that I chose to say "most christian bookstores" in my post. You are certainly part of the exception and I thank God for you. May the Holy Spirit continue to keep you and guide you, and lead you into all truth. Your signature witnesses to me most of all. Christian hugs,Lahry

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philologos Jan 29, 2005

"The Message" makes my skin crawl. I have absolutely no desire to read a single word from it's pages, much less spend God's money to own it.As it happens you can get it without paying anything as a module on the e-sword bible programme. How do you know so much about it without reading it?In my humble opinion, anyone who owns "The Message" is open to spiritual peril. It's an interesting opinion at any rate, and you are free to have it. I wonder if you have studied the history of Bible translation?I use the KJV as my foundation for all my Bible study; as I have often said on these pages it is a temporary expedient... just until I can get something better. :-) Take a look at these two translations;"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. (Joh 3:16 MSG)"in this way for loved the God the world so that the son his the only-born he_gave in order that all the believing_ones into him not should_be_destroyed but have life age-lasting" (Joh 3:16 absolutely literal translation - Ron Bailey!)If you found a man breathing his last breaths, which version would you quote to him? In fact The Message has caught something missing from every other version I know; the fact that eternal life is not just longer but better. The life of the ages; is not just quantitively better, it is qualitively better. Eternal life is not just longer; it is God's life... that brings our spiritual death to an end and makes us whole again.BTW this is almost a novel experience for me. I have spent my life on the other side of this argument! ;-)

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