Soulishness | SermonIndex

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Areadymind Nov 19, 2010

Is there anyone out there aware of when this became a term? Or whether the early church fathers spoke of it with a different wording or phraseology? I am not interested in opinions on the legitimacy or lack thereof of the doctrine. I am just curious on the history of its teaching. The furthest back brother I know of that spoke of it was Watchman Nee, are there more ancient brothers who spoke of it?

I will greatly appreciate any help in this area brothers and sisters.

sermonindex Nov 19, 2010

The Latent Power of the Soul by Watchman Nee is a classic small volume that deals biblically with this topic! I believe it is quite important. Many other godly saints addressed and shunned it.

That is a great question to know if this is something that has been taught and recognized in the early church. I believe Paul spoke of it when he addressed the false apostles in 1 corinthians and talks about the power that comes from the word of God and not from the wisdom and power of men.

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Areadymind Nov 19, 2010

That is just it, I loved that book, and was even really blessed by a Zac Poonen sermon on it today, I guess I am just baffled by not hearing this much, and not seeing other teachings on it historically.

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Areadymind Nov 19, 2010

Brother Greg, do you happen to know why it was resisted as a teaching?

S

StarofG0D Nov 19, 2010

Areadymind,
Zac Poonen teaches on soulishness a lot. He may have even gotten the teaching from Watchmen Nee for starters then went with it. Because I know Zac Poonen refers to a lot of Watchman Nee's teachings. You should email Zac and see where else this is taught. I'd be interested to know as well. :)

Unless Greg knows too.

I believe, soulishness is more present in the church than we can even begin to realize.

Could pietism be similar to soulishness? One article I read, said there were similarities. But I do not know enough about pietism to make an accurate judgment.

K

knitefall Nov 19, 2010

Yes, I couldn't agree more. The longer I live for Him (very short compared to most of you) the more I recognize the flesh(soul) in myself and in preaching. Not much preaching contents me anymore because of this.

With Bro Zac, I know of some of his teachings and that's great. But I do know he quoted the mess bible. I do have issues with that. It has direct word for word quotes from the Druids and other occult like groups. It hold much much vulgarity in the sexual area and diminishes the Deity of Jesus a lot. And I have problems with that.

But the topic of soulishness is a key in end time conditions of the Church. We are in no way spotless when we operate in our own ability to please God. In fact, God hates it and calls it sin.

I am not going to argue about the mess bible but only tell you to watch out. I say that with care. Shawn.

S

StarofG0D Nov 19, 2010

Ez 13:3 also talks about the false prophets who depended upon their own "spirits" which I think would be the same the "soul."

A

Areadymind Nov 19, 2010

Interesting Michelle, that is a good point about piety. Although piety is a bit of a difficult word to pin down a definition on. People have used it in both positive and negative connotations. It is kind of one of those words that acts like a mercenary.

Although I think I can see what you are getting at. There may be some ways to tie the two ideas together to get a bit of a picture of soulishness through another commonly used verbage...historically.

A

Areadymind Nov 19, 2010

I found this online earlier tonight. You can read, "The Spiritual Man" by Nee here for free.

http://www.theoldtimegospel.org/men/spirit_index.html

H

Heydave Nov 19, 2010

By Areadymind:

I am not interested in opinions on the legitimacy or lack thereof of the doctrine. I am just curious on the history of its teaching.

I'm not sure why else you may be interested in this subject, but surely it should be of interest to us if it is a biblically correct doctrine.

I think the fact that you cannot find much teaching on 'soulishness' before Watchman Nee should raise a a red light of concern. Why not do a bible word study on 'Soul' and see what you find. I like a lot a lot of Watchman Nee's teaching, such as 'The Normal Christain Life' book (which is good bible exegesis), but I am very cautious of his teaching on the Soul.

I personally think that most of the teaching that has built up around 'soulishness' has very little (if any) biblical support. When you look at the scriptures people quote to support the various aspects of 'Soulishness' or 'soul ties' etc, they are either taken out of context or taken to say something they were never inteded to mean. Mostly the teaching is very subjective (if that's the right word). I mean it is based on opinion and personal conclusions, rather than clear biblical teaching (and I mean clear).

As Christians we do tend to repeat things we are taught and so certain teachings become ingrained into our theology and we just accept them as being correct......until we take a fresh un-biased look at what does the bible 'actually' say about this!

For me, the word of God tells us that we either 'walk in the Spirit or the flesh'. So it's only a matter of the Spirit of God or the flesh. Now our soul (life) can be controlled by either. You have to have a 'soul life', but it has to die to the flesh and be controlled by the Spirit.
So in reality what they call being 'soulish' is realy 'FLESH' or 'FLESHY'. It's the same thing and not another dimension. I don't mind if someone calls it 'soulish' or 'fleshy' as it amounts to the same thing, ie.not Spiritual. I just don't agree with building a whole teaching around something not clearly taught in the bible.

Enough from me anyway.

G

ginnyrose Nov 19, 2010

Ok, I am grossly ignorant: exactly what do you mean by "soulishness"? I could guess but how do you define it? I do not find its use in the WORD.

ginnyrose

EDIT: I did not see Dave's post until I had posted my question. Still, I wonder about its practical aspects.

sermonindex Nov 19, 2010

HeyDave said

I think the fact that you cannot find much teaching on 'soulishness' before Watchman Nee should raise a a red light of concern.

I agree - because I was brought into a lot of bondage by the teaching that we have to 'lay down our soul life'.

You have to have a 'soul life', but it has to die to the flesh and be controlled by the Spirit. So in reality what they call being 'soulish' is realy 'FLESH' or 'FLESHY'.

Yes, as it relates to sin. There are many sinful urges from the flesh, ALL of which must be mortified. But, there are many pursuits which involve the use of the body, which are God-given and legitimate. Only if those latter become the focus of undue attention or affection, are we in trouble.

Paul in Romans 6 expresses the spiritual reality of our death in Christ. Peter in 1:4:1 refers to its effects. While 1 John 2 brings context:
[For 'lust' read DESIRE]

15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world.

If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Romans 8, Tyndale's New Testament [I love his use of 'given to'.]

For what the law could not do in as much as it was weak because of the flesh: that performed God, and sent his son in the similitude of sinful flesh, and by sin damned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness required of the law, might be fulfilled in us, which walk not after the flesh: but after the spirit.

¶ For they that are carnal, are carnally minded. and they that are spiritual are ghostly minded. To be carnally minded is death. and to be spiritually minded is life, and peace: because that the fleshly mind is enmity against God: For it is not obedient to the law of God, neither can be. So then they that are given to the flesh, cannot please God.

¶ But ye are not given to the flesh, But to the spirit: If so be that the spirit of God dwell in you.

http://faithofgod.net/WTNT/romans_8.html

From Tyndale's 1 Cor 14:32
For the spirits of the prophets are in the power of the prophets.

In this verse we see that even a gift such as prophesy, is under the control of the person through whom it is operating.

How much more our choices about those activities to which we give the engagement of our real inner hearts, our minds, our bodies? Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Regarding the bondage of constantly trying to kill off legitimate parts of my 'soul', in which I found myself, I was released when I heard a testimony on the radio one day, of a ex-convict who'd eventually come to the Lord in his last of many times in prison, and now, was training for full time ministry. He had overheard from his cell, some Christmas carolers singing 'The Lord's my Shepherd', and one line got stuck in his mind 'My soul He doth restore again'. He said, I kept thinking, 'He restores my soul! He restores my soul!' And that moved him to seek God for himself.

As I listened, I realised I'd been drawn into an attitude of mind by which I was colluding in the DESTRUCTION of my soul. (In my case, this was definitely true, even if it doesn't apply to readers.) Immediately, I started to revise how I understood 'my soul'. I was struck that David had written this hundreds of years before Christ, and how much more should that 'he hath purchased with his own blood' MY SOUL, (Acts 20:28) make me value it as highly as He did?

Now, all of my difficulty could be a reflection of my ignorance of scripture in the days when I first heard about 'laying down my soul life', but scripture itself does not lead one into that confusion, imho.

sermonindex Nov 19, 2010

Walking by the soul (mind, will and emotions) is soulishness. Leaning upon your own understanding. It is walking in the flesh, being unspiritual, yet thinking you are spiritual.

It is essentially walking after the flesh with a religious spirit.

Just like there is no mention of the words "sin nature" in the Word (except new versions), there is no mention of the word "soulishness", yet the Word speaks of "soulishness" if you will all over the place. Just like it talks about the Trinity in many places.

Jessie Penn-Lewis spoke of the counterfeits of the Holy Spirit by Satan. Satan uses our flesh to counterfeit spiritual things. Watchman Nee referenced Jessie Penn-Lewis extensively.

Don't get hung up on the word "soulishness", because the early church taught about it, it is all over Romans, Galatians, James, etc and the Church has always taught about it, but I believe Jessie or Watchman coined the phrase "soulishness".

Watchman Nee's work, The Spiritual Man, deals with soulishness.

The danger of the power of darkness taking advantage. The Letter of James, written to believers, distinctly delineates the relation between soul life and satanic work:

Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good life let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual (literally soulish), devilish. (3.13-15)

Here is an excerpt from the Spiritual Man.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/dangersofsoulish.htm

sermonindex Nov 19, 2010

Hi Pilgrim

Walking by the soul (mind, will and emotions) is soulishness

If 'mind, will and emotions' are exclusively of our soul, how do you distinguish those thoughts, desires and emotions which are God-glorifing and therefore permissable expressions of 'soul', from those which are not?

You may think you've answered this, but I would like more detail, if you would, particularly as 'will' is not separable from the person. What a person does is what they willed. Or, might a person 'do' differently from their inner heart's desires (that is, their honest, internally perceived will), so as to conceal sin?

What I'm asking is, how can we 'love the Lord our God with all our heart and mind and soul and strength', without sinning?

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Areadymind Nov 19, 2010

HeyDave, I am not particularly interested in seeing yet another debate. I also do not particularly buy into the idea that it had to be a taught doctrine prior to Nee. The manner of scripture is that it is living and active and I have discovered over my life that there are times where God opens my eyes to things in Scripture that I never would have seen had I been in sin.

Secondarily, I just don't have the time to manage a debate on a forum thread about the concept. Which is why I am asking my brothers and sisters for any information about it so that I may take the time personally to evaluate the truth or lack thereof. Thank you for your interest brother.

H

Heydave Nov 19, 2010

Alive to God - Yes I agree with your conclusion.
Just to clarify what I was saying, we definitely do have and need a Soul life, but it dies to the flesh in the sense that the flesh should no longer controls it, but it is under the control of the Spirit and therefore being restored.

Pilgrim: I have disagree with you here (I normally agree with most of your posts:-)).

I think that The spiritual Man by Nee is much too subjective and experiential. Jesse Penn-Lewis' book again is highly regarded by a lot, but is almost totally based on experiences and conclusions not found in scripture, but ideas which 'seem logical'.You could say soulish :-).

Watchman Nee referenced Jessie Penn-Lewis extensively.

You see the issue here. One person quotes another to validate the teaching.

The danger of the power of darkness taking advantage. The Letter of James, written to believers, distinctly delineates the relation between soul life and satanic work:

So are you saying that 'bitter jealousy' and selfish ambition' are not works of the flesh, but something else...'soulish'?? Does not make sense to me and that's why I think it causes such confusion as Alive to God pointed out.

sermonindex Nov 19, 2010

Don't get freaked out by the term "soulishness".

You yield your mind, will, emotions (soul), to the Spirit or to the Flesh.

Can you get any simpler than that? We have been here before.

Your mind, will and emotions are yielded to the Holy Spirit or to the Flesh.

Anything you yield to the flesh you are yielding to Satan.

Works of the flesh are those things that the soul has yielded to the flesh (some call it sinful nature.

By your mind, will and emotions you yield to God or to Satan (via flesh).

What Watchman and Jessie Penn-Lewis talk about and really tried to zero in on, is how subtle the flesh can be in looking holy, righteous, spiritual. When they talk about the fallen soul life, or soulishness they are talking about how very clever and subtle one can be in their soulish life to masquerade as being "spiritual".

The early church always knew about this because they were taught it by the Holy Spirit. You can see that in Heb 4:12.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Only the Spirit and the Word can divide (tell the difference, expose, pinpoint, motives of the heart) even between SOUL and SPIRIT.

You don't need a book for this. We have one (God's Word). This is where the rubber meets the road in our walk, when we determine to come to the Lord with all our heart and not be joined to any idols AT ALL, in our heart, but Him.

By His Word and Spirit He then "divides" for us what is Spirit and what is Soul in our lives.

You will see as you press in further and further into the Lord, things that you never thought existed in your life. You will go through depression and discouragement when you see that nothing AT ALL good, dwells within you. That is a good place to come to.

Selfish ambition, desire to be thought well of, pride, greed, impure motives, wanting a little glory and admiration, etc, etc.

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Areadymind Nov 20, 2010

I got to thinking about all the Christian books I have read over the years to try to rack my brain if any other brothers addressed soulishness without using that terminology, and I realized that Spurgeon addressed it and called ministers on the carpet for it in his book, "Lectures to my Students." He just had not labeled it as such.

He was talking about how foolish it was that there was a fad from many ministers who would replace the "R's" in their words with "W's." In essence this is the exact same kind of psuedo spirituality that Zac Poonen was calling preachers on the carpet for in his sermon on it.

I bet there are many more people who have addressed it, just in a different way of wording it.

Good admonition Pilgrim.

A

Areadymind Nov 20, 2010

As a matter of fact, there is an entire section in that book about an interview Spurgeon had with a man who wanted to enroll in his school of ministry, who Spurgeon completely rejected from service into the ministry because the man exhibited nothing but what Nee or Poonen, or anyone else who taught soulishness would call exactly that.

G

ginnyrose Nov 20, 2010

Thanks for the answer.

In reading this thread I get the sense that one gets into trouble when you focus on the mechanics of how God deals with people and man's responce to it. Or, did I misunderstand?

Anyhow, I would say: Keep it simple like God does - then you will never go wrong.

My opinion...:-)

ginnyrose