Amish: From Now On, We Support Israel

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ginnyrose Dec 3, 2010

I found this news fascinating. Here is the link:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/140967

It can also be read here:

http://www.openheaven.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=34878&PN=1&TPN=1

I had never before heard that the Amish were anti-semantic, or that they looked with favor on Hitler. This is so out of character of Amish belief I find it almost unbelievable. Yet, any group of people is capable of believing anything... including us moderns...news, ain't it!

Anyhow, I did find this news item interesting - thought you might as well.

ginnyrose

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enid Dec 3, 2010

To be honest, it's not something I have ever thought about, whether or not the Amish were anti-semantic.

How that came about, historically, is anyone's guess. Unless someone actually knows.

As for looking on Hitler with favour, that beats all.

One has to wonder, why now?

sermonindex Dec 3, 2010

gingerly, i say to both of you, Ginny and Enid, why do you find this so surprising?

that the Amish would be anti-semitic?

the church in rome from the onset was and is terribly anti-semitic. Heaven forbid anybody look down in the vatican's vaults, fore i would wager, you might even find implements from the 1st Temple, if not confisicated wealth from European Jewry during hitler's regime. that pope and hitler were "buddies".

and the Protestants, the venerated Martin Luther deginerated into a Jew hater, one of his last tretises was entitled "On Jews and their lies", so you would think this flock would be immune to that soul poison?

so why am i writing this? because i've been trying to say over and over again, thanks to almost 1700 years of "church led" institutionalized anti-semitism, Jews just don't trust the small c 'church', whether it be the church in rome, the protestant denominations, and the orthodox 'church' because of CENTURIES of murder, rape, forced conversions, inquisitions, etc....all done "in the name of jesus".

and then when some Bible believing Christians, rank scorn upon the modern State of Israel and say it is not of God, or engage in the theory of 'replacement theology', this just buttress's the mistrust Jews have of Christians.

thru the centuries, NOTHING has been really done that would make the Jew "envious of so great a salvation" as it comes from the theological institutions of man.

compound that with the murderous hatred that islam has for Jews and the State of Israel, and its no wonder, why we are, where we are, this very day.

Frankly, as God has given me discernment, there are some on this very forum, who have either hatred or disdain for the Jewish people buried deep in their hearts.

its great that a tiny subset of Amish, got real in Christ, that's wonderful, but how many more out there?

i could say a lot more, what's on my heart, but there's very little profit in that.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2010

Frankly, as God has given me discernment, there are some on this very forum, who have either hatred or disdain for the Jewish people buried deep in their hearts.

So true.

Also why would the world still be so up in arms (literally and figuratively)
over Israel if God had finished with them as a people. The very fact of the incredible, insane , demonic opposition to them proves they are very much part of the end game.

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ginnyrose Dec 3, 2010

Also why would the world still be so up in arms (literally and figuratively) over Israel if God had finished with them as a people. The very fact of the incredible, insane , demonic opposition to them proves they are very much part of the end game.

Is it not this fact that lends credibility to the belief that God is not done with the Jews as a nation? No other people have retained their identity all these years as have the Jewish people. Some could argue that the Arabs have maintained theirs as well because they say they are the descendants of Abraham as well. Why this is the case could be the subject of another thread...but it is an interesting question that could be explored.

When I was growing up in the north in an Amish community (we weren't Amish but had lots of Amish neighbors) no one ever said anything disparagingly about the Jewish people. I was taught they excelled in the economic, intellectual arena of society, proportionally greater then the 'gentiles.' So, Neil, while these people do not have much political clout beyond their immediate world, there are people who do love the Jews. And, FYI, Anabaptists have never as a group persecuted the Jewish people. :-)

ginnyrose

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makrothumia Dec 3, 2010

"Frankly, as God has given me discernment, there are some on this very forum, who have either hatred or disdain for the Jewish people buried deep in their hearts."

I do not believe this statement meets the qualification for either edifying or ministering grace to the hearers.

makrothumia

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PQ Dec 3, 2010

James 2:8 "Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”d 9But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law." ...niv

PQ*

sermonindex Dec 3, 2010

i wrote from my soul: (and the words i have seen)

"Frankly, as God has given me discernment, there are some on this very forum, who have either hatred or disdain for the Jewish people buried deep in their hearts."

and you responded:

I do not believe this statement meets the qualification for either edifying or ministering grace to the hearers.

that's your belief, but i'm not here to tickle your ears, and to date, from 2002 to this very day, i have not seen, nor been written to by any other Jew who follows Jesus...not one other person, who has written to me, saying, 'neil, i also am a Jew who follows Jesus.....isnt that a Wonderful Miracle?" ....not once.

why is that?

Dr. Michael Brown, another Jew who follows Jesus wrote in his powerful book "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" exactly what i speak of. you can read some of it here:

(later edit.the google link made the page elongate, you can read the book on google books.)

i purposely have NOT bought this book, because i dont want to know MORE of the sordid history of the "church" i already know...or i might buy it today, though i have my John Sung book to read, or i was going to re-read "Life of Brainerd" again. it just depends.

you don't think i see the way saints argue over this 'doctrine' and that 'doctrine....or spend voluminous threads on which pastor is a 'wolf' or NOT.....tremendous division within the very Church itself.....and to tell me that within certain hearts a hatred of the Jewish people is not buried deep within the hearts of some on this forum is to deny the innate wickedness and depravity of the human heart.

its not out of my own "imagination" this comes, God the Holy Ghost has revealed as such to me. Many say "Lord, Lord", but they are far far from the Kingdom of God. unclean souls come onto this forum, asking strawdog questions about this preacher or that, and set off a tidal wave of vituperative posts.

in the last three weeks alone, this forum has taken a tragic turn for the worse, some of the threads are just abysmal....and everytime one looks up at the counter, you see "57 guests"...or "75 guests"...and you write to me, and say my statement is neither "edifying" or "ministering grace"?

there are people on this forum who have hatred of the Jewish people buried deep in their hearts. God knows who they are, and they know who they are.

i've said what i had say, and have perfect peace about it.

M

makrothumia Dec 3, 2010

"Dr. Michael Brown, another Jew who follows Jesus wrote in his powerful book "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" exactly what i speak of"

This statement is not true of myself nor of many others who are genuinely redeemed through our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not bear the sins of my fathers and they are not imputed against me according to the very word of the Lord spoken by one of the prophets to Israel. Read Ezekiel to verify this. The fact that these attrocities were committed by those who named the name of Christ does not implicate me nor other believers today. In Christ there is no guilt by association.

There is no guilt by association in the New Covenant. As I have appealed to you before, I appeal again. Men hate other men because they do not know the love of God and they are sons of the evil one like Cain. It may look like prejudice towards a certain race or people group, but it is the spirit of satan who is at work in those who are disobedient. Those who are sons of their father the devil are murderers like their father. Yet, still our Lord died on the cross to purchase their forgiveness and redemption. Paul himself was once a murderer, a persecutor, a blasphemer, and a violent man, yet he was saved that he might become a pattern of the all long suffering and mercies of Jesus Christ.

Those who have been born again in Christ have full forgiveness for all of their sins, and most certainly they are not held accountable for the sins of other men who named the name of Christ but did not actually know Him.

It is also a false assumption that those who might hold to replacement theology are guilty of hatred towards the Jews or the modern state of Israel. This is another example of an assumption that is put forth in the form of a general accusation. The Holy Spirit does not inspire such mistatements.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2010

say what you want, like such:

It is also a false assumption that those who might hold to replacement theology are guilty of hatred towards the Jews or the modern state of Israel. This is another example of an assumption that is put forth in the form of a general accusation. The Holy Spirit does not inspire such mistatements.

i can tell you this,God the Holy Ghost certainly did not inspire "replacement theology" as such theology is begotten from the pit of hell, its the doctrine of demons.

now YOU personally are certainly not held accountable for the Crusades, or the the forced conversions of Jews by the roman "church", or the centuries of explusions of Jews from various lands, or the countless pogroms, murders and rapes of Jews thru the centuries at the hand of those "covered" by the "church", but to refuse to even acknowledge that this might be the reason the "church" has scared the Jesus out of the Jews, is either inauthenticity, cowardice, or maybe shame....i dont know.

i will say exactly what Dr. Brown said, the history of the "church" towards the Jewish people is abysmal and blood soaked.

but it was curious to me, when i said what i said, "that there might be Jew haters on this very forum"....WITHOUT accusing one person by name, why did you feel compelled to rebuke me?

that struck me as odd.

but...it really doesnt matter. those who hate the Jewish people, hate the State of Israel, or even passive-aggressively denigrate its existence by saying it is not of God, whether they be sunni muslim's, shi'ttes, secular pan arabists, nazi's, german or english speaking, "...its a new day, no longer can the world, the 'church', the 'mosque' kill Jews with impunity.

The Jewish State, Israel not only has a potent military, but they have the world's 6th largest nuclear arsenal.

M

makrothumia Dec 3, 2010

I do believe in one form of "replacement theology".

I believe those who genuinely know Yeshuah ha Meshiach will:

Replace their swords by turning them into plowshears.

They will replace their spears by turning them into pruning hooks.

They will replace their study of war with the gospel of peace.

Shalom atah be yeshua ha meshiach

sermonindex Dec 3, 2010

I do believe in one form of "replacement theology".
I believe those who genuinely know Yeshuah ha Meshiach will:
Replace their swords by turning them into plowshears.
They will replace their spears by turning them into pruning hooks.
They will replace their study of war with the gospel of peace.
Shalom atah be yeshua ha meshiach

then allow me to ask you a question, under this proclaimation you made, then our military posture in America, vis-a-vis the "war on terror" is anti-christ?

our American servicemen and women are serving in sin?

that our invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan is sinful?

that we in America should disband our military, because by the very dint of manning the walls, according to your proclamation, this is sin, and not knowing Christ?

Now, if you answer that America is right in facing down islamic jihadi's, why is it that Israel doesnt have the same right of national existence...in fact, why is it, that of all the nations in the world, only Israel has its very existence brought into question?

why do you think that is?

could it be thats the way the god of this world wants it, thats the enemies plan and hope?

M

makrothumia Dec 3, 2010

Here is my answer.

What the world does is not my concern. I am not of the world any more than my Lord was of this world.

I only live here as a stranger and pilgrim. The governor holds the sword as God's instrument to inflict God's justice on the evil doer. I pray for them that so I might live a peaceable quiet life in all godliness.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? God will judge them, He does not need my help.

Although we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. Our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.

Anti-christ is a spirit that has been in the world since the days of John the Apostle. Then and now there are many anti-christs. Their main goal is the same as the person they are serving. "The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the glory of the gospel of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

I am simply a servant of Jesus Christ. I am no man's enemy. And I do not fear being any man's target. I do not know men any longer after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I love the Jewish people and rejoice that they are yet they are loved because of the Patriarchs. They are certainly not loved for any of their own inate goodness. They are as thoroughly corrupt as all their enemies are.
The modern state of Israel is as anti-christ as any other country that is of this world.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2010

The modern state of Israel is as anti-christ as any other country that is of this world.

finally, authenticity.

you couldnt answer any of my questions, adress any points i made, but i do know where you stand on Israel.

M

makrothumia Dec 3, 2010

Here is a link to a song that expresses my belief about Israel.

http://www.godlychristianmusic.com/Music_Artist_Details.aspx?id=2&groups=0&name=Alan Martin

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StarofG0D Dec 3, 2010

Alan,
Which song? The link goes to all the songs.

M

makrothumia Dec 3, 2010

The Jewish Children's song says:

And in those days Juday shall be saved
And Jerusalem will dwell in peace (repeated)

The last part is my favorite, because it means

This is the name by which they shall be called
This is the name by which they shall be called

THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS

Adonoi Tsidkenu

The shuvi. Both songs are from Jeremiah and were promises of God's future grace to Israel

A

ADisciple Dec 3, 2010

"Frankly, as God has given me discernment, there are some on this very forum, who have either hatred or disdain for the Jewish people buried deep in their hearts."

I too felt this was an unfair statement, Neil. And like Makrothumia, I certainly know it's not true of myself.

Nevertheless I do concur with Makrothumia that the modern state of Israel is anti-Christ. So are countless other world states. Saying that the State of Israel is anti-christ cannot be considered hatred for Jews any more than saying Communist China or the Dominion of Canada is anti-Christ -- which they are-- is the same as hating Chinese or Canadians.

...As far as the state of Israel being anti-Christ... you could discover that yourself by going over there as a Christian, and seeing what would happen to you.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2010

i like authenticity. AD....you might be authentically wrong, but at least your authentic.

one thing though, your last statement; i don't get the point of it, the gist behind it;

...As far as the state of Israel being anti-Christ... you could discover that yourself by going over there as a Christian, and seeing what would happen to you.

what do you mean? did something bad happen to you?

A

ADisciple Dec 3, 2010

Hi Neil:

No, I have never been to Israel. But I do know of cases where Christians have been persecuted in that state. There was a case reported on this very forum of a Christian evangelist whose son was badly hurt by a bomb blowing up in his face.

And I have Christian friends have had some involvement in Israel, and went through very difficult things for the very reason of their being Christians.

I've also been told that it is illegal to evangelize there. I can't verify that one way or the other, but it's certainly not appreciated.

Oh sure, the Christians can come there and tour around and check out all the Bible places. No problem. Tourist dollars. But as far as welcoming the "in the name of the Lord..." I don't think so.

...And as far as being "authentically wrong," I have no interest in being wrong. I want to know the Truth, that's the deepest desire of my life. May I suggest that you yourself could be having some difficulty in seeing what I believe? And maybe even misunderstanding what I believe?

I think of the apostle Paul. No man loved his fellow Jews the way he did. Why, then, did they hate him so vehemently?