Authority and Submission by K.P. Yohannan

First of all, I want to thank brother Greg for this site as it has been a tremendous blessing to my walk. From Ravenhill, Reidhead, Wilkerson, Washer, Poonen and others, the Lord has used much of the preaching and teaching to awaken and revive me in many ways for which I am thankful.

Now regarding the subject at hand, I understand that those who moderate this site and the vast majority of Christians who visit it, have similar views on the topic of church government or leadership and authority in the Church.

What I mean is that it seems that most Christians believe in the top down, hierarchical structure of having one man(the pastor/presbyter/overseer) in absolute authority over a local church, and everyone else under him in submission to his plans for the church.

The vast majority of the gifted preachers promoted on this site hold to this view of church government.

In this hierarchical structure there is a clergy-laity dichotomy. That is, the teaching and belief that there is a caste of certain gifted ministers(the clergy) who are highly distinct and superior to the rest of believers in the Church(the laity).

According to that view only that certain caste of ministers are allowed certain priviledges in the Church, priviledges such as teaching/preaching, administrating the Lord's Supper, baptizing, making decisions regarding ministries, leading in music, etc.

As some of you know, I along with others who have been posting recently on this subject, disagree with that type of church government or authority. We believe that there does not exist a clergy-laity dichotomy today in the eyes of God, for we are all the laity(people of God) and ministers(a royal priesthood).

We view the roles of pastors/elders as functional roles as opposed to official or professional and authoritarian. Thus we encourage and exhort mutual submissiveness, servanthood and humility within the Body as we believe our Lord teaches in the Gospels.

For many years I accepted the clergy-laity division as being true. Looking back I perceive that I was under much restriction and bondage in my walk with Christ.

For example, I remember having a passion and zeal to preach the biblical gospel to the lost on the streets. Yet I found myself having to go out and minister without the blessing or approval of the senior pastor of my church.

That is because he did not approve of the full biblical gospel but instead was used to a watered-down feel good message that leaves out God's severity and the need for repentance. And he, along with most churches, did not approve of open air preaching which I am convinced is clearly biblical and needful.

About two years ago I began to question much of the structure, traditions, and authority within most churches. And I believe the Lord opened my eyes to see the unbiblical basis for this clergy-laity division and system.

So what is my point in all this? Just wanted to share my heart with you all, and encourage and exhort all to consider and look into these things prayerfully and seriously if you have not done so.

On a side note, I do not have any grudges against pastors, brothers or sisters who are part of a traditional church setting. My only grief and grudge is with that "system" of church government which I believe has hindered the Church for centuries. I see my brothers and sisters who are under the clergy-laity structure as victims who are hindered and held captive to traditions and systems of men.

My hope and prayer here regarding this is that we would all be able to discuss and share our convictions in the spirit of grace, humility and respect, and if need be, to agree to disagree respectfully.

Over the years I have noticed a growing spiritual deception which inculcates people into spiritualizing, and scripturally justifying the gainsaying of Korah.

I have seen authority abused as well, but K.P. and Greg are spot on here methinks.

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." -Luke 10:18

This verse should be underlined, outlined, highlighted, read, re-read, adopted, meditated on, and utterly imbibed by anyone who claims to follow Christ.

This is another really good sermon on spiritual authority. It is really long and Stephen has a tendency to repeat himself. But it is so worth listening to. It has been a while since I did, but I think it goes well with this article, and other general themes being discussed here the last few days.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=949

Woops, that was the link I meant to give, thanks.

This is another really good sermon on spiritual authority. It is really long and Stephen has a tendency to repeat himself. But it is so worth listening to. It has been a while since I did, but I think it goes well with this article, and other general themes being discussed here the last few days.

Thank you brothers! I am listening now.

There is something I also want to say pertaining to what has been addressed these last few days around here.

I believe that when the moderators make rules about how things should operate here on this website, and you are requested to "pray" before you post, and if you post in a spirit contrary to how the moderators have asked you to post, and you think that just because you prayed and "felt" as if God gave you the OK, and yet you ended up posting contrary to the requested Spirit. You are not posting according to the Spirit. You are posting according to the flesh, every time without fail.

I believe that God is so concerned about authority, and our ability to willingly submit to it on a personal level, (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ENFORCING IT FROM THE TOP DOWN, but what I am talking about is humbling yourself unto death just like Jesus did, and considering those above you and those below you better than yourself) that God will never ever ever give you the OK to say something contrary to the Spirit of how the Moderators have requested you to speak. Because God himself, via the Holy Spirit would be instructing you to be rebellious. And rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

If you think that there are people in error within the leadership the bible tells you very clearly not to rebuke an elder, however there is nothing that says that you cannot privately submit your concerns to them in humility. Though SI is not a church, it is a tool for the church to use. And if that tool is always trying to dismantle itself, it will not be easy to use when trying to dismantle the constructs of the enemy.

To publicly question, and to sarcastically vituperate the authorities of SI, or anywhere for that matter, is probably going to be a reflection of how you treat all authority in your life. As a result, God will never give you any authority anywhere in the body of Christ. Any authority you may have will be that which is obtained out of rebellion and carnality, and no matter how doctrinally correct of an individual you may be, you will reap the fruit which you have sown. When I say "authority in the body of Christ," I do not mean authority in a worldly sense. I mean authority to speak to issues, authority that is spiritual, and not authority that is carnal or worldly. The church is not the military, nor is it a corporation. So please do not assume that my words mean something other than what would apply in a Godly sense.

I have seen this both here, and lots in real life. It is a messy business. Leaders, and younger brothers alike can become like Diotrephes or like Demas. And our father in the faith Paul said, "For I have no man like-minded, who will naturally care for your state. For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's."

I am going to give an example of what I mean and how this has been applied to my life since I started posting on these forums.

By nature I am an incredibly sarcastic individual, I used to be sarcastic in an anarchistic way towards all forms of authority. I am still sarcastic, but my sarcasm is far more "sanctified" than it used to be. Now it is usually a self-deprecating brand of sarcasm. With the occasion to be sarcastic towards others some times.

However, I recognize the spirit in which the moderators here request me to speak and I have noticed by the way they talk, and they way they have laid out there rules that I suspect they do not appreciate sarcasm very much. As a result I have never once that I can recall spoken in a sarcastic fashion. If I have it was certainly accidental. I have deleted hundreds of posts that I started to write that had a flippancy of sarcasm in them. This is so good for me because it crucifies my tongue to the cross, and it has even helped me in my marriage and in my family life with the believers I fellowship with in "real life."

I have some very direct examples that I am thinking of where I see people going against the spirit and rule of this forum, but I think it is better if people just pray and ask the Lord with humility to give them light on their own hearts that they may be better servants everywhere they are in life.

I really hope and pray that this is taken and received in the same spirit in which it was spoken. There are many brothers and sisters here that I cannot wait to meet some day.

I really appreciate your post Alreadymind. I appreciate also the spirit in which it was written.

If you think about it, we are all under some form of authority, whether it be spiritual or governmental. The reason we find it so natural to despise submission to this authority is due to the wretched adamic pull in all of us which endeavors to place "self" above all else in the universe.

In the physical, we submit to governmental authorities because the repurcussions for not doing so is immediate. We pay taxes (in the United States) not because we want to, but because of the IRS getting involved and making our lives miserable if we don't. The natural man therefore complies (albeit grudgingly) because of a natural threat. The spiritual man, however, submits and pays his taxes because God's Word instructs us to pay our taxes. There is a huge difference between the natural man and the spiritual; the rebellion in the natural man to not pay taxes is never mortified but rather caged by the threat of the governmental sword. The spiritual man, however, actually puts his adamic non-submissive nature to death by the Holy Spirit because he has God's word to stand upon. If God decrees that we should pay taxes to Caesar, it is easy to submit if you love Him more than money and are willing to call upon His grace for empowerment to obey.

What am I getting at. The natural forum member (including myself and the other mods - we are only men) here is often driven by his or her nature to post articles and thoughts and fellowship with other believers. But this highway we travel here also has a govenmental authority over it, regulating the "speed limit" so to speak, for the safety of other passengers. When a police officer pulls a person over, it is usually because some safety rule was violated: illegal lane change, excessive speed, running a red light, failure to yield, etc. There are reasons these laws are in place, even if the motorist is young and doesn't quite understand what the big deal is.

Most people slow down when they see a police officer; this is not due to the mortification of their rebellion to traffic laws, but out of fear of the reprisal if pulled over. True submission is going the speed limit even when there is no cop, not because of reprisals but because it is the law that God put on the roads through man.

When we are in here, if we always keep in mind that the authority here is not of man but God's own precepts for forum etiquette to benefit everyone's safety, we will find it a joy to submit. It is only when we question, "Has God truly said.." where we arouse the flesh by thinking for ourselves in an effort to elevate our own assertions. This is where we begin to get into trouble, and if it is traced back to its genesis, we always find unmortified pride as the culprit. The offender will not submit to the law, because the drive to promote self temporarily outweighs the fear of reprisal.

If we seek God for empowerment to submit, He will immediately give us wisdom, strength, and peace. Submission to authority is so very near to God's heart I believe: it was the fulcrum of Satan's fall from heaven, Man's expulsion from the garden, and Christ's acceptance of the Crucifixion. Those who will not submit, have an internal missfire which will eventually bleed out and bring death to themsevles and everything they touch, whereas those who submit in the spirit ultimately bring abundant life to themsevles and others.

I believe the key to authority/submission including how we post is remembering the bible verses that
teaches us how we should conduct ourselves, how we are suppose to think, how we should help our brethen not to fall for false beliefs etc. That's my 2 cents.

Oracio said:
I see my brothers and sisters who are under the clergy-laity structure as victims who are hindered and held captive to traditions and systems of men.
________________________________________________

In Love, I would say that is a very broad statement,how can "we" possibly know how God is using a person or persons in Church? In our eyes, they may look like they are being held captive, but we also must remember, Gods timing from our timing, is totally different. Is it possible, he has someone in the Church for maybe 30 years or more, that may look like there spinning their wheels, or in your words, being held captive, but God is just not finished with them yet?. You know, I have always had a issue with Christians trying to figure out God, please be very, very careful about what you might see, because your watching from the flesh, while God is working in the spirit, statements like the one above, "could" undermine "GODS" work in the Church.
God Bless
Brother Bill

Most people slow down when they see a police officer; this is not due to the mortification of their rebellion to traffic laws, but out of fear of the reprisal if pulled over. True submission is going the speed limit even when there is no cop, not because of reprisals but because it is the law that God put on the roads through man.

Amen. This is integrity at its core. This is total mortification. Great analogy.

Another good example of how we view and respond to authority could be as follows:

I go to a friend, or a brother and sister's house to enjoy some hospitality and fellowship. The first thing I do when I go into that home is that I look to see if there are shoes in a pile in the entry way. Usually if I see that, it means they don't want people walking in their home with shoes on. How I respond to that pile of shoes will speak volumes about either, my humility, or my pride. Either, I will be sensitive to this families authority (because I am coming under their roof) and I will take off my shoes, or I will pretend I did not see it, and walk right in.

If you come into a forum, and you see a pile of shoes on the floor, take your shoes off too. It is only wisdom. It does not matter how much you disagree or agree with the value of it.

Here is another question I ask myself every time I write on this forum, and it is not even a rule they have stated. "If my pastor's were to read what I wrote, would they say Amen? Or would they have words with me?" If they would be riled, or misrepresented by my words, there may be a chance that Jesus, or the moderators here would not be too happy either.

At the risk of "being pedantic," as philologos once said in another thread, there is one more sermon on here that speaks to these issues so well. It is "The Way of Cain," by Zac Poonen.

I can honestly say that this sermon changed my life. It was not just some sermon I nodded my head to and said some collegiate pious comment about. It rocked my world, it revealed the root of Cain in me. It broke me of these kinds of attitudes.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=8162&commentView=itemComments

I thank God from the bottom of my heart for this. I go back and listen to it every now and then just to see if I am getting it still. May God bless richly anyone whom has ears to hear...

You may be right, analogies are always a poor substitute for the word of God. It is why I do not use them often.

I listen to this one ( The way of Cain) a lot too. Great Sermon!!!

Zac Poonen and Leonard Ravenhill speak a lot about church elders. Sure makes a world of difference when they are the most humble godly men in the church. When they are submitting to Jesus through the Holy Spirit ... the church will worship like Able not Cain. Not that I have seen that personally but I do know what it looks like when the most powerful and rich are picked and the church worships like Cain. Jude tells of this!

When you have men of honor it is so easy to submit. They earn your trust and submission by walking in the Truth. I had the greatest father in the world. Today in my 40's I would jump to the moon if he said jump. I sure wish we had more men like this as pastors and elders. We just need a massive baptism of fire in the church!