I'm trying to explain the Trinity to a Muslum using the analogy of water being in three different forms each having unique properties just as the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have distinct roles. I'm not sure how to explain why Jesus was praying to God since the Muslum I'm talking to just says that if Jesus is God, then he would be praying to himself.
Andrew,
Jesus prays to his Father. God is one(echad in hebrew). A husband and wife are one(echad) flesh. If a wife wants to talk to her husband does she talk to herself? Yet they are one flesh.The scriptures say "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Genesis 1:27). Jesus and the Father are also one. "I and the Father are one."(John 10:30) It is wonderful that Jesus humbled himself unto death on a cross and then "God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." (Acts 3:26)
Hi Andrew,
The Trinity is a tall order. God is in essence one being who exists in three different dimensions. The issue of dimensions is easier to explain for mathematicians and physicists if you wiki it. Let me give you an example related to time. If you could travel to the future say 20 years, you could in theory meet future-you in a different dimension. Future-you's world would be so evolved beyond yours that by virtue of that alone He would be superio to you although you are the same person. Add that to the fact that He has more experiences and therefore wisdom, you would in essence be more like a son to him than a twin. The analogy is a bit rough but that's the crux of the matter. God (the Father) exists in such a realm that even the most superior angels must sheile their faces, that is to say they cannot perceive Him entirely. This is the realm in which Jesus (the Son) the Word of God is King of kings. We must realise that God the Father is greater even the spirit realm. The only way that even the Spirit realm could understand God was in Christ (col 1) .Christ is God in a comprehensible form in the spirit realm. So in summary the issue is the issue of dimensions without dwelling to much on my poor example. God is one being in three different dimensions.
James
It all depends how hungry a man is before he will believe but let's trust that God is at work here.
Ps 110:1 we have Jehovah speaking to Adonai. This is deity Jehovah speaking to deity Adonai. "The LORD said to my Lord." Of course Jesus refered to this when He stumped the religious leaders by asking " who's son will messiah be" They said David. Jesus said how then is it, David in the Spirit called Him Lord if He is his son.
Hebrews chapter 1 is a treasure on deity speaking to deity.
In Acts 5 we have Ananias and wife. Peter says why have you lied to the Holy Ghost? He then follows up by saying, you haven't lied to men but to God! So we see the Holy Spirit acknowledged as deity here.
Nature declares Him. Apples are core, pulp, and skin but one apple. etc...
That is just a couple fast tidbits.
Ruf
I hesitate posting this because I don't feel that it is complete but I post it to get feedback on the thoughts contained in the following essay so far. I believe that I can gain understanding form those that disagree with me as well as those that agree with me so I offer the following expecting to gain from any feedback I receive. God bless your desire to know Him better.
The Three Parts of God
\tThe first revelation we have of God is Genesis 1:1 that states, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth”. Genesis 1 verse 2 tells of the Spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters and verse 3 starts “And God said”. This is the first record in scripture of God speaking.
\tIt is beyond the understanding of man to comprehend the pre-existence of God. How is it that He has always been? What kind of activity has He forever engaged in? What inspired His creative imagination to set things in motion as we see them today?
As a mortal we can only stand in silent awe and fascination as we behold His creation from the complexity of the single atom to the vast expanse of countless galaxies. We know that by His wisdom the earth, a small speck in a vast universe, was made in a life-supporting balance. Oh, the wisdom of God. Oh, the power of God. What a God!
\tAs we explore the reality of God we want to examine the three distinct parts of the Godhead as they are revealed in the Word. God used the same pattern when he created man in His image and man was made a body, soul and spirit. The Godhead can be understood as Father, Son (The Word), and Holy Ghost (Spirit) working together in complete unity, never acting independent one of the other. As we progress in our study we will see that it is impossible for any part of the Godhead to act alone.
\tIn the beginning God… What was God? Did he have form? Where was He? What did He do? Where did He come from? Answering these questions is hard for man with our limited understanding but we can accept by faith that in the beginning God was and He created the heaven and the earth.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Roman 11:33-36)
The picture we have of God, in whatever shape or form, is the picture of a great, infallible, incomprehensible, eternal Mind. As we consider our own mind, we can understand slightly how the mind of God must have been filled with ideas, images, desires, plans, knowledge, wisdom and an understand far superior to man, the complete definition of righteous and holiness. We imagine in the mind of God a trail of words linking together to form thoughts and these thoughts collecting into ideas and these ideas building into complete, complex systems, all existing in the mind of God. As this process stirs and excites His mind, God looks for a way to express the mental energy that is swelling within Him.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God said… Finally the energy is released. Finally the complex system that formed in the mind of God has expression. God spoke. A trail of words escaping His lips, expressing His mind, marching into an earth that was without form, void, darkness everywhere, and then moving upon the face of the water, calling into existence the ordered system of LIGHT.
The Word has been released, begotten of the Father, carrying with it the power to change that which it touches, never to be hidden away again only in the mind of God. The vocal vibrations ripple through the universe, marking everything they touch. All things were made by Him, the Word, and without Him was not anything made that was made. (John 1:1) God has used the Word to express His mind. The Word (Son) does not communicate anything but what the mind of God (Father) has conceived. Once out of the lips of God the Word can never return to a mere existence in the mind of God. The Word now stands, as an entity Himself, apart from God yet in total harmony with the mind of God. When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8:28, 29)
As the Word came forth, sending its message of faith gliding across the face of the deep, it called forth those things which are seen from those things that are invisible. (Hebrews 11:3) Designed by the mind of God, called by the Word, ordered by the Spirit of God, there was LIGHT. The Spirit only orders what the Word has spoken and the Word speaks only what the Father conceives, THREE acting as ONE. Without the Word the Father has no expression so His creative energy remains bottled up and He abides alone. Without the Spirit, the language of the Word does not change the things that it touches and if the Word is absent how can the Spirit affect anything? If the Father is missing how can the Word know what to speak? It is impossible for any One of these Three to exist alone.
Travis
IMO one of the best ways to see how the trinity works is within the old Hebrew where one of the names for God appears as a horizontal line with a vertical line coming down under each end. This was what convinced an old time rabbi that God was more than just one although He is one.
This Hebrew letter for God showed this rabbi that there is a God the Father over God the Son and God the Holy Ghost
I cannot remember which name of God it was but it was enough for a devout Jew to throw of his prayer shawl and pick up His Cross
I might have saved the article and if I find it I will post a link
Or better maybe there is a old language expert that already knows the answer
Blessings
Doug
Doug,
It could have been the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet Aleph. It is the first letter of Elohim and Adonai. I am not an expert though.
God Bless
Sola Scriptura
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,
The Mighty GOD,
'The Everlasting Father',
The Prince of Peace.
Joh 14:7-9 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him,
and have 'Seen' Him.
Philip saith unto Him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you,
and yet hast thou Not Known 'Me', Philip?
he that hath Seen Me hath Seen the Father;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
Joh 12:44,45 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on Him that sent me.
And he that seeth me, seeth Him that sent me.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his (Israel's/Jacob's) redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 21:5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And He said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my 'son'.
{Note on Jesus' words in Vs 7 - capitalizing the 'h' in 'his' or 'he' in this verse, mistranslates an Awesome proof text of Christ's Complete Deity. }
Joh 10:30 I and Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him....
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man,
makest thyself God.
Joh 18:4-6 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, "I am". And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, "I am", they went 'backward', and fell to the ground.
I see where the "oneness" folks get their belief - yet they don't realize, that by making it "Jesus Only" - they've scared those who read this Scriptures above away from the Fulness of GOD and His INCREDIBLE make-up.
It's not Jesus Only, but GOD only. He is as ONE as ONE can be described or defined.
We see WHO will "be with us" in Rev 21:1-7. Incredible verses. Absolutely Incredible.
Though we cannot refer to our own person or selves as "we" - GOD can, (because He is GOD) and yet HE remains ONE - Always.
I believe that GOD creating us in "His Image" - is explained by us being "tripartite".
We are body, soul & spirit - not three persons, but one.
How GOD intended our 3-in-1 to operate or function, the way HE intended, is Exampled by GOD made man - Jesus.
How we are to walk, so as to "be one as He and Father are One" would be another topic. When our spirit (occupied by His) governs both our soul and body.
I don't know if Muslims believe in man being tripartite - body, soul & spirit or if they believe Genesis' account of creation - but this is the only way I know how to think about the Co-Equalness of the Three in ONE.
Above, we see Jesus called "Father" and there are many more verses to be added to this.... such as those names of His Spirit, being called both The Spirit of GOD and The Spirit of Jesus Christ.
They are far more ONE than the great number of trinitarians understand and I can only understand by knowing we are created tripartite and Jesus took on our likeness to show us how to live in Unity (our own 3 in 1 natures) as the triune Godhead does.
It needs to be meditated on.... the revelation that "Creator GOD was on that cross".
The same GOD of Genesis to Malachi. Our human brain and some not-quite-exact trinitarian teachings over the centuries, have kept the Impact of this revelation from truly hitting us. When the whole of Scripture (as those posted above) regarding The ONE True GOD hits us - I think we will never be the same again - amen, amen, and amen.
Hello...
I have heard the comparative analogy of H2O (liquid water, ice water and steam water) in discussions of the Trinity. I have also heard the Trinity described as an egg (shell, yoke and white).
When speaking with a former chemistry professor, I used an analogy of the atom. A single atom is made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. The protons and neutrons are the centerpiece...sitting next to one another. The electrons flow all around the protons and neutrons.
Oddly enough, the first test of the first atomic bomb was called "Trinity." The test, of course, proved that there was immense power that could be released with the splitting of the atom. When asked why he named the first test, "Trinity," J. Robert Oppenheimer stated:
"Why I chose the name is not clear, but I know what thoughts were in my mind. There is a poem of John Donne, written just before his death, which I know and love. From it a quotation:"As West and East
In all flatt Maps—and I am one—are one,
So death doth touch the Resurrection."That still does not make a Trinity, but in another, better known devotional poem Donne opens:
"Batter my heart, three person'd God."
His Word never goes out void.
I've been thinking of where I differ with most trinitarians and where, not only Muslims, but Jews also have problems with the trinity doctrine, though as said, I do believe we have a Triune or Tripartite God. We also being created tripartite.
To try to show through Scripture my thoughts - to add to the verses given above - though if you begin to cross-reference these, it would cover more than could be posted.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: "God was manifest in the flesh", justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into Glory.
Php 2:6, 7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be 'equal with God': But 'made himself' of no reputation, and 'took upon him' the form of a servant, and 'was made' in the likeness of men
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God.
Who "walked & talked in the Garden" with Adam?
Can we see that happening in the first 7 verses of Rev 21? (Jeremiah 31).
Rev 21:7 = 2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Adam Clarke, just for one, sees Rev 21 as when the three-in-One are no longer "seperate" but "undivided and Eternal" --- as GOD was "from the beginning".
My opinion, from what Scripture I read, is not in agreement with the teaching of the Eternal 'Son'.
The Eternal Logos, yes - but not the Eternal Son.
A son is in submission to a father. Jesus "was made"/"begotten" on a certain day and while in the flesh, He submitted to "the Father" by "The Spirit", as we're supposed to. He was our Creator, humbling Himself for His Creation, being our example of how to live a Spirit indwelled life - under submission and then dying to be GOD our Savior.
The GOD we see in Rev 21 is One GOD - Completely coEqual.
Heb 1:1-13 - can all be cross-referenced to the O.T. - but just to cover a few of these verses --
" "This day" (on a certain day - at conception) - have I 'begotten' thee." (Ps 2:7, Acts 13:33) and -
"I 'will be' (future tense) to him a father and he "shall be" (future tense) to me a son.
"Sit on my right hand, 'until' I make thine enemies they foot footstool."
...... "Until" that day described in Rev 21.
Heb 2:9 "who was 'Made'....." - (was 'made' a son)
"GOD our Savior" (Titus 1:1, 1:3, 2:3, 3:4, 4:10)
Col 2:9 For in Him dwelleth 'all the fulness' of the Godhead bodily.
Mark 12:29 - Jesus answered - "Hear, O Israel; The LORD our GOD is One LORD."
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self 'with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.'
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD (Who?) appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am "the Almighty God"; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, "the Almighty."
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord "God Almighty", which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
How many "Almighty GODs" are there? From OT to New, there is only One Almighty GOD.
Isa 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
From the Athanasian Creed
"... That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
and
And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. "
I must appear very rebellous, but I have problems with 'creeds' - an example would be what's called "the apostles" creed.
Quote, in part:
"I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord"
In John chpt 1 and elsewhere, we see that all things were made by GOD/the Logos, equally, but this creed seperates the "Father Almighty" from The Logos.
Anyone reading these creeds would see a BIG FATHER sitting on His Throne with a smaller son at His side.
I've even read men's writings where they contrive 'conversations' between Father and son before the Incarnation. Very irreverent. They have the son asking 'Dad' questions about the future (as if He isn't GOD omniscient Himself) and Dad answering, "Well, you see son......".
After He reclaimed His Eternal Glory, after the resurrection, that picture is Not what is seen on "the throne". Rev 21:5
The other creeds, such as the Athanasian, have the Son as being the Son from eternity-past.
Every verse I've read, in the OT or New, refer to Him as the Son in the future tense, before His incarnation .... all those "shall be"s, even in the Angel's pronouncement to Mary.
GOD became The Lamb, yes, and we see GOD as The Lamb in the Revelation of John. And in earlier posted verses - the Logos is also called 'father' - That's how 'One' they are.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
Thank you for letting me talk this through.
Just wondering. . .
Why is "trinity" being discussed with a Muslim when even the Catholics (the inventors of the ideology) do not call it doctrine, but rather dogma?
Is this discussion drawing him towards looking to see what Jesus has done and will do,
or is this one of those red herrings he has used to avert gaze on our Almighty God become flesh for us and His world?
"God is Spirit, and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."
~Jesus
BTW, the stance here is one of "twinity", Christ Jesus being the exact stamped image of our Father:
Beholding one another as face to face in and of one another,
their Holy Spirit being One (between them), containing the seven Spirits of God in presence, purpose, power and authority.
In Christ, we have this Holy Spirit in us and with us.
The Holy Spirit baptises us into Jesus Christ as the Father ordains.
Jesus Christ will immerse (aka:baptise) us
into His/Their Holy Spirit
unto outpouring
if we just ask the Father.
The Father and Son are outward manifestations of them, One Spirit
Brother,
I hope also that you can take time to lay hands on and pray for this Muslim. Let him feel the presence of the Holy Spirit... that will do far more than our words!
God bless you in your endeavor with him,
Lisa
Why is "trinity" being discussed with a Muslim when even the Catholics (the inventors of the ideology) do not call it doctrine, but rather dogma? Is this discussion drawing him towards looking to see what Jesus has done and will do, or is this one of those red herrings he has used to avert gaze on our Almighty God become flesh for us and His world?
This is a good point. Although there are a few who have genuine lack of knowledge and honestly want to understand God better, most who claim to have a "head" problem (i.e intellectual) with Jesus really have a heart problem. Therefore it is often best to first appeal to the conscience of unbelievers instead of applying our list of well laid out intellectual arguments.
It seems Jesus Himself often did this very thing. I'm reminded of His reply to the Pharisees when they claimed to have a head problem with His disciples, claiming they were breaking the law by plucking and eating grain in the field on the Sabbath. Jesus appealed to their consciences in His reply.
That's not to say we shouldn't have to be able to expound on important doctrines of the faith, but we do need to be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
In Christ,
Ron
I know that for me, it took two days for me to reply to this thread because all I felt was admiration for Andrew to even begin to witness. Praise GOD for that - I'm impressed. Tiring of the hatred all around me, where I live - it's refreshing to hear someone say that they're making an attempt.
Where I live, it's suffocating at times, spiritually.
Living in an apt complex with no believers and finding out that they're all praying to Saint Michael and that this "saint" is none other than Michael, The ArchAngel.
Pictures of St. Anthony, holding a baby Jesus.
Anything goes around here - Except GOD Only.
This experience here has only sensitized me more to where others live. The attacks differ in different locations. I lived in several States and one country outside the US and that is what I base that statement upon. I just feel a burden to pray for each other more than we ever did before.
I just feel a burden to pray for each other more than we ever did before.
That is a good burden that you are carrying
Blessings to you
Doug
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