Keith Green on Maturity and not debating over words

We must learn to take the high road of faith and reject false teachings. Even when it's not popular, we must hold onto the truth. (If You Love The Lord, uncompromising devotions from the heart of Keith Green, copyright 2000, p. 17)

When I was a new Christian I spent many useless hours (weeks, even months!) wrangling over words. I'd argue over anything and everything: Can a Christian be possessed by demons? Do you have to be sprinkled or immersed to be truly baptized? Should you be baptized in the name of Jesus only or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

In some ways I set myself up for this. After concerts people came up to me and said, "You know, I don't agree with your position on this or that." I'd sit at the edge of the stage, a crowd would gather, and I'd throw out Scripture with the other person lobbing back different verses. We'd have a great time with our "flesh" exposed for all to see. I loved it!

You see, a contentious spirit is not true zeal for God. Immature Christians may think they know all the right answers and that everyone has to see things their way, but that's warped thinking, sinful, and even self-condemning.

Now, we do not think that we have a corner on the market of truth. God forbid. I don't want that corner, thank you. I just want to be a Christian. I don't wanna be a prophet. I don't want to be even an evangelist. I just wanna be a Christian. That's all I wanna be. (Audio #3079-4, side 1)

Nowadays it isn't Jesus Christ and Him crucified. It's Jesus Christ and what He can do for you. You cannot have more exact opposites than the Bible's Christ centered gospel and our modern crossless me centered gospel. Today, if anyone preaches self-denial as a condition for discipleship, you can hear the comments afterwards, "old fashioned," "harsh," "legalistic." I dare say that our Lord would have as much trouble finding acceptance among our preachers, as He had among the religious leaders of His own day." (cassette tape, What's Wrong With The Gospel?, Audio #3079-1, side 1)

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There's a story of this preacher, he's a famous preacher in many circles today. I'm not guna mention his name or give ya any hints. And the guy has been recently preaching what's called "ultimate reconciliation." It's a heretical doctrine that teaches that eventually everyone will go to heaven. It's kind of like a Protestant purgatory. That at the judgment, people will go to heaven and people will go to hell, but hell will burn away their sins, purge and purge (sic) them away, and eventually (cause a loving God would never send people to hell forever, according to this series of doctrines) then they will go to heaven. OK. It is (sic) just come out in the past six months, and this guy has bothered alot of people. He's a loving living guy [italics hard to make out from tape], and he's bothered awful lot (sic) of people with this doctrine. What just came out (sic) that he's been having homosexual encounters with some of the young students that studies under him. For twenty years he's been having them. He's hated it. He's confessed it to his wife. He's, He's, He's, tried to repent and get over it, but he's still in conducting (sic) in it. He's just been asked to step down from the ministry.

Of course he believes in ultimate reconciliation! Of course he believes that hell wouldn't be forever, because he needed a hell like that, cause he was living in hell now! And he couldn't bear to believe in a hell that the Bible taught about that would last for eternity. So, he in his, in his sickness and his sin was turned over to a deceptive mind to believe deluding influences and wrong doctrine, and found a doctrine that would give him comfort in his sin . . . (cassette tape, What's Wrong With The Gospel?, Audio #3079-2, side 1)

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But when I hear stuff like this, that, that Christians, believers, people that I know believe and love and know Jesus, present a gospel that's so close, that has alot of Scripture, but yet presents the exact opposite view that Jesus presents. That just burns me up, and I bet it breaks God's heart, and should break ours; and we shouldn't go and start picketing those ministries. We should just try ta be a good example and go forth. And I love these people. And I have some friends that that work within these ministries, and I pray for them and hope the best for them, and would pray that God would led them to make the changes.

But the church, which doesn't have a millionth of the compassion that God has, has turned around and created a God in its own image and likeness. (Audio #3079-1)

When I was a new Christian I opened up my Bible, then set myself up as judge. I'd go into ministries and get loud about their need for correction. Worse, within six months of my conversion, I was on-stage performing - and judging things publicly. Thousands of people came to hear me, and I really got into letting them know what I thought.

One day God grabbed me by the collar and showed me that judgment comes out of spiritual immaturity. (p. 95, bold added)

Amen dear brother. Thank you for sharing that precious testimony.

These are just Excerpts/short quotes from Keith.

I was one of Keith's followers, during his very early days until his death. Receiving "The Last Days Newsletter" in which Leonard Ravenhill and David Wilkerson's articles appeared when David was still living in Texas - Pre-TSC days.

To say that Keith did not stick his neck out against heresies would be a wrong assumption.

He did the best critique out there, called "The Catholic Chronicles".

Back then, the worst heresies that they or we had to deal with were the Eccumenical movement and Hyper-faith - and the 'manifest sons of god' was just starting to come into the Church in the 70's and early 80's.
David W. did the best on divine healing in his pamphlet titled - "The Ultimate Healing".

No, Keith was faithful to pin down dangerous teachings in his time, through his Newsletters and other printed materials. So were the others - back then. Much like men such as Roger Oakland and the few others like him today.

Now though - most are more worried about keeping numbers.

As Ravenhill wrote: "Where are the prophets?"

No, Keith was faithful to pin down dangerous teachings in his time, through his Newsletters and other printed materials. So were the others - back then. Much like men such as Roger Oakland and the few others like him today.

I believe all true Christians who are following Christ will fall at times into the ditch of judgementalism, etc.

Keith Green cannot even begin to be compared with Roger Oakland. He did not say everything that was wrong ...

There is a balance Brother. How many times does Paul say this in his Epistles - such as, with the job of the overseers and so forth.

It would be judgmental and presumptious, now that Keith is gone, to say that, someone like Oakland or Anton Bosch, etc are saying "everything is wrong". That would be judgmental toward those who do watch over and feel called to watch over the flock as well - as Paul mentions in these verses - just for a very few of Paul's admonitions toward sound doctrine.

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I don't know who says "everything is wrong" - maybe there are those types around - yes, I've seen a few in cyberspace and these are seperating the sheep from the sheep - but there is also the call of GOD to protect the Church from dangerous movements or beliefs and none of us can say that anyone who comes against the things that the men I mentioned do, are 'wrong' or that they are saying that "everything is wrong".

Only GOD knows where Keith would be in opposing this total Apostacy from truth that we are in now, in these "Last Days", in his Last Days Ministry. Only GOD knows.

Every man has his own calling or gift - but every child of GOD needs some stable foundation in these days in order to not be deceived.

It saddens me that you would demean these other men and use this word, "judgmentalism".
Where do we draw the line between defense and protection of 'True Truth', as Schaeffer coined the phrase, and judgmentalism?

I suppose that's the only question that I can ask.

Where I got some of my thoughts from initially.

From the Last Days Magazine - LD#18 -

UNITY...AT WHAT PRICE? by Keith Green

Today there is much talk among Christians about the need for unity. Wherever Christians gather you can hear someone saying, "If only all the believers could get together and agree, then the world would sit up and take notice! THEN the devil would be running scared! Then there would be real revival!!" The whole ecumenical movement is based on such a conclusion. I must admit the thought sounds wonderful - to have all those different denominations (and "non"-denominations) in love and fellowship with one another - that would be something, wouldn't it! Ah...but don't hold your breath...IT CAN'T HAPPEN. There'll always be a couple of real Christians around to spoil it! "What?!" You say, "How could REAL Christians spoil it? Wouldn't THEY be the very ones who would be the most loving and ready to unite?" Oh yes! True belivers are full of love - love for God, love for their brothers and sisters, love for souls - in fact, love would be the VERY THING that would make them oppose a mass move of unity. "What?!" You say again, "Why that's the most absurd thing I've ever heard! How could love keep them from wanting to get together with everyone else who cofesses to love God? You're not going to get me to believe that people with such deep love wouldn't just LOVE to see all the churches and professing Christians come together in unity? Why, what could they love more than that??" Well, they love THE TRUTH! Yep, they're pretty attached to it - those true believers can even seem right stubborn and ornery at times - the way they stick to the truth.

UNITY - MAN'S WAY

Some people have the craziest ideas! They want to try and do what only God can do. "Let's play Holy Spirit!" That's what they seem to be saying. They think that if they can just get everyone to quit arguing about their different doctrinal beliefs, then unity is right around the corner. "Let's just all try and fellowship and talk about those things in the Bible we all can agree on." There's only one problem with that kind of thinking...isn't the Bible ALL true? How can we just find the lowest common denominator to which all Christians can agree to, and label the rest of the Bible (God's Holy Word) "unessential for unity." In his book, Today's Gospel - Authentic or Synthetic?, Walter Chantry looks into the reasons for the failures of modern evangelism and foreign missions. In the introduction Mr. Chantry writes: "Having accepted the theory that unity is all-important for world evangelism, both the Church and the individual must lower their estimate of the value of truth. In a large congress on evanelism we could not insist on a truth of God's Word that would offend any brother evengelical. After all, unity (among Christians) is more essential than doctrinal preciseness. "It is for just this reason that the mission boards are hesitant to answer the question, 'What is the gospel?' Thoroughly to answer that would destroy the mission society, which is a federation of churches who have differing answers to that question. To adopt the position of one church would be to lose the support of five others. The whole system built on unity and generality would crumble."

UNITY - GOD'S WAY

(Jesus' prayer in John 17) Many base their quest for true godly unity on an important passage in the gospel of John. Here in chapter 17, Jesus is praying for His disciples "that they all may be one..." (v.21). This verse certainly shows that the Lord desires His followers to have unity and truly "be one". but in the very next verse (v.22), we see some key words "...that they may be one EVEN AS WE ARE ONE." How are the Father and Son one? In every way! They have no doctrinal disputes. They have no differing theologies. They do not argue over the rapture. They completely agree...on EVERYTHING! But you might ask, "How can every Christian agree on doctrine? If we wait for that, we'll NEVER have unity!" You're missing the point. It's not knowing "doctrine" that's important, it's knowing God. Only through entering into an intimate, personal relationship with the living God and leaving behind the doctrines and theologies created by men and church tradition, can we ever hope to find the unity Jesus prayed for: "I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one...Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory..." (John 17:23-24). What does the word "theology" mean anyway? It means "the study of God". Today, theological students do not study God, they study about God. At best, they study the writings of men who themselves have studied God. Why, they really ought to change the word theology to theology-ology or "the study of the study of God!"

TRUE AND FALSE DIVISION

How many times have you heard that somebody was "causing division in the church?" Well, maybe they were supposed to! After all, there are two things that cause division according to the Bible: truth and error. (I can just see now all the eyebrows raising.) Haven't you heard the scripture, "Do you suppose I cam to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, rather division!" That's right! Jesus said that "from now on five members in one household will be divided three against two, and two against three" (Luke 12:51-52). He said that whole families would be divided over Him. And there are many occasions in the New Testament when whole assemblies of people were divided because of Jesus (John 7:43, 9:16, 10:19, Acts 23:6-7). You must remember people who love the truth will divide from people who love lies. Now the Bible does warn us about those who would enter into our midst and cause divisions and factions (Matt. 12:25, Rom. 16:17, 1Tim. 6:3-5, 2Tim. 2:14, 2John 10). And yes, it has always been the devil's strategy to "divide and conquer." But these divisions are obviously based on error, lies, and usually come from bitter and evil motives (Titus 3:10). Division that comes from the proclaiming of the truth will usually include some intense reaction and opposition, but it will also produce good fruit and the advancement of God's kingdom (not to mention the conversion of souls.) What bible story is there, Old Testament or New, where the doing of righteousness or the preaching of the gospel does not divide men and separate them into two very distinct categories: those who are willing to turn and obey God, and those who actually turn on the messenger, because he violently disturbs their false (and usually religious) peace? And today, when there are so many who are professing religion, is it any wonder that some of the deepest truths in the Bible - repentance, faith, holiness, etc. - are also some of the greatest objects of debate in the Church. It must be said that those who truly want to know God's views on these great pillars of Christian doctrine, will appear to be divisive - and rightly so, in an age when the great gospel message of salvation can be reduced to such a sugar-coated, bakery-item as, "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life!"

WHAT THE SCRITPTURES SAY

Those who believe that Christians should stop bickering about their "pet doctrines" are right. Christians should not be argumentative, "...and the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome..." (2Tim. 2:24). How many times have you heard stupid arguments about prophecy? "But I just KNOW the 10th head on the dragon in Revelation is Tahiti!" This kind of "division" is for the birds. Yet there ARE scriptural commands to defend the truth. "Study to show thyself approved.

End Article, listed under "Christian Issues" from LD Magazine, along with "Prosperity-The Hundredfold Return" and others.

I enjoyed this quote that ties into the things Keith Green was saying in the first post:

"Though we cannot think alike, may we not love alike? May we not be of one heart, though we are not of one opinion? Without all doubt, we may. Herein all the children of God may unite, notwithstanding these smaller differences." - John Wesley

"When I was a new Christian I opened up my Bible, then set myself up as judge. I'd go into ministries and get loud about their need for correction. Worse, within six months of my conversion, I was on-stage performing - and judging things publicly. Thousands of people came to hear me, and I really got into letting them know what I thought." Kieth Green.
..................................
Then he says that the Lord showed him that judgment comes from spiritual maturity.

I may have been at that meeting. I was at an outdoor concert where he was the key worship guy, and he rebuked the Hades out of everyone in a mini-tirade for not acting holy, and quiet enough to honor his ministry. It would have been about that time.[mid-70s]

It, of course, turned everyone off..and I suppose reading this, that the Lord ministered to him, also. I had two very close friends who spent years with Green at his Texas ranch. Evidently, it was ran like a spiritual boot camp, with Kieth as the DI.

I ended up meeting him briefly a little later. He was intense.

Saying that, consider that Kieth had FIVE years in ministry. Amazing, eh?, to consider the impact. He was really into giving everything he could to God, and learning to do the right thing. No Compromise was his mantra, but often the zeal part seemed to dominate.

In the end, he was a talented psalmist, and very famous. I believe, in retrospect, that his fame, and the wealth that came with it, [to buy the ranch, airplane, etc.] hurt him. It's hard to step down and just be a brother with so much accolade thrown at you, and famous power.

We tend to idolize men like that. Did you realize that Bob Dylan was saved also?..and fell away, I believe for these reasons.

I know what you're saying Brother Tom and I surely agree that this is very sad.
The man mainly printed classic authors in his magazine, which gave many of us a good beginning.
Two articles that were in one of LD magazines after he died were "The Person GOD uses" by Samuel Logan Brengle and "Dishonesty in Little Things" by Finney. (Vol 8 #4)

He started out like many of us, with that 'zeal' you spoke of. I truly don't know but, because Ravenhill and David Wilkerson's articles were in the Magazine also - they were a welcome read.
We believed at the time that The LORD took him home because, no man should be overly followed - but others say that he was taken out by his enemies for the tracts that he wrote - yet, no one can be "taken out" unless the LORD allow.
I don't want to speculate with Keith Green or others, but I did & do feel the danger of following anyone too closely - and that's probably why many of us love to read dead authors.

When you met him, how long was he in ministry?

I believe it was Ravenhill that said something like - men aren't known until they die. Their words and lives aren't truly known until then - unless they fall away as Dylan did.

Sad topic.

"When you met him, how long was he in ministry?"..Jesus is God.......

I don't think he had released his first album yet. He was saved in 1973, [died in 1982..].....at 28 years old. He must have been around 22 when I met him. So, I guess it was speculation how long he was assessed as to actually "being in ministry".

I met him at a Christian Jesus people concert in Santa Rosa California in 1976?/7? It was here that the experience happened I wrote of. I am sure he has inspired hundreds of thousands of believers to give more and devote more to a God that Kieth believed deserved it.

No compromise was his message....all the way for Jesus. He was not squeamish in pointing out hypocrisy, either. I suppose that this is exactly what this thread is about....the maturity to discern when and how to activate repentance in others, and the motives behind our acts.

unless they fall away as Dylan did.

I do not believe that Bob Dylan fell away. He hushed up his public "Christian" persona about 1982. .He wasn't preaching and singing to the church world
those days He was way out there for the Lord among the most secular crowds
you could imagine from 1979 to 1981. As a result he received much persecution and criticism for his public proclamation of his faith. The result was that he did submerge his faith to a certain degree later on.
The man could use our prayer.

He has to this day performed his own gospel songs and hymns such as Rock of Ages, Somebody Touched Me and others in concert on occasion.

He has alslo written numerous songs expressing his faith throughout the years. For example some of the lyrics from his song " Thunder on the Mountain" written for the album Modern Times released in 2006.
"Thunder on the mountain, and there's fires on the moon
A ruckus in the alley and the sun (son) will be here soon ....
I don't need any guide, I already know the way
Remember this, I'm your servant both night and day ...
Some sweet day I'll stand beside my king
I wouldn't betray your love or any other thing ....
Everybody going and I want to go too
Don't wanna take a chance with somebody new
I did all I could, I did it right there and then
I've already confessed - no need to confess again "

And From the same 2006 Album the closing song Ain't Talking
"As I walked out tonight in the mystic garden
The wounded flowers were dangling from the vines
I was passing by yon cool and crystal fountain
Someone hit me from behind....
Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Carrying a dead man's shield
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Walkin' with a toothache in my heel....
The suffering is unending
Every nook and cranny has it's tears
I'm not playing, I'm not pretending
I'm not nursing any superfluous fears....
As I walked out in the mystic garden
On a hot summer day, hot summer lawn
Excuse me, ma'am I beg your pardon
There's no one here, the gardener is gone.

In this interview Bob was asked about his 2009 Christmas album
Christmas in the Heart,
The interviewer, Bill Flanagan, asks Dylan about O Little Town of Bethlehem where he says to Bob "You sure deliver that song like a true believer." to which Dylan says "Well, I am a true believer."