Is Age Segregated Ministry Multiplying Or Dividing The Church?

"Divided" --- A newly released must-see documentary!

ABOUT THE FILM

There is a crisis. Christian youth are rapidly leaving evangelical churches for the world. This well-recognized disaster has been the topic of significant discussion in recent years for both church leaders and modern news media. DIVIDED follows young Christian filmmaker Philip LeClerc on a revealing journey as he seeks answers to what has led his generation away from the church.

Traveling across the country conducting research and interviewing church kids, youth ministry experts, evangelists, statisticians, social commentators, and pastors, Philip discovers the shockingly sinister roots of modern, age-segregated church programs, and equally shocking evidence that the pattern in the Bible for training future generations is at odds with modern church practices.

He also discovers a growing number of churches that are abandoning age-segregated Sunday school and youth ministry to embrace the discipleship model that God prescribes in His Word.

The above was taken from their website

To learn more go to their website:

http://dividedthemovie.com

"The premise is that the filmmaker, Philip Leclerc, was taken out of his youth group at age 13 by his father. Initially, he was disappointed, but he grew up to see most of his friends walk away from the faith by the time they left for college. This caused him to question age-segregated youth ministry and wonder why the Church does it when it doesn't seem to work.

It turns out that not only do up to 80% of children leave after they graduate from high school, but 40% actually leave during middle school. So it appear that half of the people who are leaving the church at a young age are walking away before they finish puberty. CHILDREN are leaving the church.

This movie was very honest in simply asking youth and youth pastors what their experiences were. He starts off by asking kids who came out of youth groups and current youth pastors. Honestly, those interviews were very discouraging. He then goes on to talk to a lot of people who used to do be involved in typical youth ministry and they share what happened. They share what they learned and why they eventually moved out of that model and into a more family-integrated model. Basically, he learned why the age-segregated model is not only unsuccessful, but not necessarily biblical.

One of the more fascinating points was the history of Sunday school programs. Philip went to all sorts of libraries and did a lot of research in order to check out where it came from. It started with Robert Raikes http://www.gracemagazine.org.uk/articles/historical/raikes.htm who, after failing to reform prisons by teaching prisoners to read, turned to the children who were aimless on Sundays. He started by paying women to teach them to read and who introduced Christian teaching during their sessions on Sundays. His contemporaries did not agree with this practice. One foretold of the destruction of family worship. To give some perspective, I didn't know what "family worship" was until maybe 3 years ago. I was raised in Sunday School and Youth Groups.

In my own estimation, I would say that Raikes' contemporaries were correct. One anonymous interview had a youth pastor telling of his ministry's high view of scripture, Christ-centered passion, and sober time in the word (as opposed to flippant or secondary). Basically, he described my own church. He then said that after 7 years of ministry, he's seen 80% walk away by the time they graduate. I don't see how that's much different from my church. Our high school pastor was great. He taught from the word and he was passionate about us "getting" it without sacrificing an ounce of truth. But people still left.

The issue is that for the last 100 years, all of society, including the church, has said that fathers can abdicate their role as the leader of their families. As one of the interviewees said, "You don't want to teach your kids? Let the state have them. You don't want to train your kids? Let the church have them." We've essentially succumbed to humanist and socialist ideals that say the parents should not include their children and should even give them up for their own good. It's a mentality that suggests parents are not qualified to train their children. And yet scripture calls parents--not the church--to do that very thing.

All of a sudden, churches are realizing this isn't working. Something I've noticed for awhile is that when we send children away, we teach them they are not a part of the church. This same idea was echoed and expanded further in the movie by showing how devastating it is. When children are taught they are not a part of the church, they start acting like it.

One of the most shocking statements was at the opening of the movie when one man cited the stats and said something to the effect of, "So, which 4 of my 5 children do I want to see leave the church and go to hell?" In an extended clip of that interview, he says, "The world is failing...and if the Christian church is gonna compromise with the way the world does things, if they're gonna continue to see their families break down and dysfunctionality rule in the family--which is happening in society--if you wanna drag that into the church...well, go ahead! Ruin your church, and ruin your society and your civilization at the same time. I'm sorry. We're not playin' that game."

Is that what we want? Do we want to cling to the model we're used to so badly that we're willing to ignore passages like Deuteronomy 6? The church needs to be united. We need to stop thinking that sending people off into age groups is what's in scripture, because it's not in there. Does it mean we need to adopt the full-on Family-Integrated-Church model espoused by many of the men interviewed? Not necessarily. We need to go to the word and develop our theology and practice from what it says, not what our culture says." James B.

"Well done, well argued. This DVD makes that case that youth ministry as done in the modern church is actually detrimental to our children. The true youth ministry is the same as young adult, middle age, and elderly ministry: it's the desegregation of ages and incorporation into the body. The true youth ministers are fathers. If you want to know how to do biblical youth ministry, consider watching this video." K.A. Reed

Well documented and produced ---

"A well thought out and documented film, designed to explore the question, "Is age segregated youth ministry biblical?"

Told from the perspective of filmmaker Phillip Leclerc, he interviews pastors, youth leaders, and teenagers from around the country to find the answer. This is his journey and the audience is along to observe.

I highly recommend to anyone pondering this issue. Excellent content and the film is very professional in its quality and presentation." D. Bowman

May this message reach far and wide,impacting many,and bearing much fruit toward a revival of God's making.

Thy faithfulness is unto all generations...PS 119:90

The first time I ever pondered this issue is when I heard Paul Washer say, " Teens don't need to be with other teens, they need to be with adults in order to learn how to become adults," or something to that extend. Our church has recently integrated the teens' class into the adult Bible class and I'm not sure what exactly has been changed for the younger children but I noticed more smaller children during worship and sermon times. I guess we'll have to wait and see for a while to be able to judge the outcome. All I know is that there was one family who was very opposed to the changes and they haven't been around much since.
Thank you for this post, it looks like God is up to something in His church... :)

My wife and I spoke about this at thread at great length last night, and my conclusion after pondering some of these issues, is...does the movie producer, and anyone else who discusses this issue keep 2 Timothy 3:1-9 in consideration?

If we gave our retirement funds to an investor who had a miserable track record and year after year lost our money would we still entrust that person with our money? Would we accept a 'well that's just the way that it is' excuse?

What has more value to us, our children or our retirement?

This hit me right between the eyes and I need to change, oh God please have mercy. Oh Lord give me the grace and the FIRE to change. Lord I have failed miserably, please help me to change.

This grieves me to the core, but it's the truth. Finally, someone has the guts to call out the elephant in the room, Lord bless this young man like you did David Brainerd.

In Him,
Earl J.

I have felt this for years.

Where is "youth pastor" in the Bible? It's just part of the very unbiblical structure of our modern "churches."

Thankfully, our Lord has promised to shake all that is shakeable, that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.

Outstanding teachers educating on this crucial Biblical subject with a genuine love for the local Church with it's following generation. Highly recommend the documentary.

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One man's testimony,

"I’ve been involved primarily with teenagers for 30 of my 34 years of church ministry. For more than a decade, I did lots of church consultation and I had successful youth ministries in two large churches. I made it to a lot of large youth events down through the years and heard most of the best speakers on the youth ministry circuit."

"There was a time I was really sure how to “do” youth ministry. Today….a lot of my thinking has changed. Here’s a few thoughts.

1. I’m concerned about the idea of “Biblical models” in general. By that I mean that we seem to be saying there is a Biblical component we can place in a larger machine and make the outcome Biblical. In fact, if the entire system isn’t “Biblical,” we have problems. I did what I thought was “Biblical” youth ministry in churches that contradicted most of the values of Jesus on a regular basis, but I was quite sure I was doing a “Biblical” youth ministry. I’m now of the view that the entire paradigm has to be questioned, from fundamentals to details.

2. It all rolls on how you view the church and how you see the overall church carrying out the mission of Jesus. Young people are not a subset of the church’s mission that just happen to be handed over to twenty year olds and people with guitars. Whatever the church is doing needs to be relevant to young people: worship, pastoral care, teaching, mission, evangelism, stewardship. The scary thing for a lot of youth workers is the possibility that they might have to give up their cool outreaches and trips in order to be more like the church/follower Jesus wants. We’ve been told that we can use any tool to make church interesting, so youth workers like myself were allowed to run a program of fun, trips, food, sports, recreation, etc. in order to keep young people hanging around for whatever the church was doing. We now know that those young people simply insisted that the church become like their youth group and, ta da- there is today’s evangelicalism. Oh…and there’s a bunch of our kids, never coming back to church again because they eqaute it with juvenile, shallow entertainment.

3. So I think we are talking church from start to finish, and then addressing various groups only as it is missionally and practically warranted. The Biblical “model” is a series of relationships in which we are formed and participate: God, family, church, community. Youth ministry is a subset of all four, but can’t create a fifth place where everything comes packaged for youth. And that is the issue so many older youth guys like myself feel. Back in the day, we packaged Jesus. He doesn’t fit in the package, but we made him fit. So much of that started with well-intentioned youth ministry.

4. I realize that many youth workers will never be in a church that will ever do anything intentionally or reformationally. The program is already in a package and you are just supposed to get the kids there. It’s not a situation where you need to waste your time going to the pastor and elders and asking the whole church to change into something Jesus would recognize. So you have to do the best with what you have, and all I can say about that is you may need to make enormous changes in your own ideas of what you want to do. The shift from getting 120 kids to a concert to getting 12 kids to pray every morning is huge, and most churches won’t put up with it. So as I said, you have to do the best with what you have. Impact kids so they want more of Jesus. Make that your mission.

Another writes,in response to the above,

"It certainly can feel lonely when you decide to walk the narrow path. But the results will last. Investing in your children’s whole life (not just education or spirituality) will bring the joy of producing faith champions for the age to come, where some of the things we take for granted (like the things we see on conventional religion) will come to pass and a new breed of followers of Jesus will arise. Not attached, to programs, sermons or activities, but living transforming lives through an indwelling Lord Jesus Christ."

"My family and I have recently take the same path you’re on. And we’re challenging some other young couples to do so. We now have a small community of like-minded families that gather eventually to support each other, share experiences and enjoy the presence of Jesus in our lives…"

"I believe that’s what the real church is all about, and it’s difficult to grasp for anyone that its not understanding this kind of church-life." Derek

“When a church – intentionally or not – assumes a family’s responsibilities in the arena of spiritually nurturing children, it fosters an unhealthy dependence upon the church to relieve the family of its biblical responsibility.” Barna

While I don't have an affection for the idea of a "youth group", there does seem to be some profit in teens getting together from time to time in order to cultivate Godly friendships.

In our church we don't exclude the parents from these gatherings, in fact we encourage parents to participate.

At the end of the day - the reason why these kids leave the church is not because they attended youth group, it is because they did not experience the New Birth. Most Christian parents are too quick to assume that their child is a Christian because they said a sinner's prayer, they don't do anything too outrageous and they go to church. When they get older, the constraints of the family fall away and the true desires of the heart are revealed.

My prayer is that no matter at home, at church, at youth group - the beautiful GOSPEL of the Savior who bore our sins in his body and was raised to life for our justification would be proclaimed, for IT is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes - not a style or a service.

I'm more concerned with the Gospel deficiency in our churches than the youth groups.

I have been "doing church" for 40 years now. I have worked on and off with teens for over 20 of that 40. This is what I think important.

Children and teens are to be seen as integral and important parts of the local body. They are not as mature as the adults, and have far more to learn, but that does not mean that they are not capable of being used by the Holy Spirit to minister to the body. Remember Philip the evangelist's four virgin daughters who prophesied over Paul's team. If you study the culture they were probably 16 and younger. Too often we relegate our youth to a position as "spiritually inferior" and ship them off to their own classes and church services. I don't think this wise. We need to operate as a body and to do so means that we need to be in unity even across age groupings.

That being said, there is some benefit to being able to address children and teens on a level unique to them. There is a place for teaching them individually.

I am not in favor of "youth groups" in the way that most of the modern church world defines them, but I am in favor of times when the youth are taught and trained as a group if that makes any sense. There is a difference in the two.

I see that there is a "trailer" on their website.

Where can the film be seen?

Thanks!

Wisdom, anyone?

Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.
(Proverbs 13:20)

Incline your ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply your heart to my knowledge, for it will be pleasant if you keep them within you, if all of them are ready on your lips.
(Proverbs 22:17-18)

Hear, my son, and be wise, and direct your heart in the way. Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags. Listen to your father who gave you life, and do not despise your mother when she is old. Buy truth, and do not sell it; buy wisdom, instruction, and understanding.
(Proverbs 23:19-23)

Modern Youth Ministry 'Unbiblical,' Ministry Leader Claims

By Audrey Barrick

Scott T. Brown, an advocate of church reformation and the strengthening of families, claims that modern youth ministry is "indisputably unbiblical."

Addressing Christian leaders and families at a conference on the Sufficiency of Scripture on Friday, Brown, director of the National Center for Family-Integrated Churches, asserted that the "philosophy and practice of comprehensive, age-segregated, programmatic youth ministry" is "contrary to the ministry patterns of Christ."

Age-segregated youth ministry, trained youth ministers and programs to draw and entertain youth are a new invention in the history of the church, Brown said.

"Modern youth ministry is also inherently destructive in its impact. It divides the church by creating generational division and multiple cultures instead of a unified 'body,'" he maintained.

An elder at Hope Baptist Church in Wake Forest, N.C., Brown has denounced the disappearance of family life in the modern church and has expressed the need to preserve it.

Brown's fellow church member, Tommy Vestal, made arguments on the National Center for Family-Integrated Churches website taking a similar stance.

"This age segregation allows for the real possibility that children and adults can be completely 'socialized' by the greater culture in which they live instead of through parental discipleship and be void of any firm foundational understanding of truth of the world around them," Vestal contends.

"This slippery slope of age segregation leads to the isolation of an individual's perspective to one that only looks outward from within the confines of their age group and excludes the lessons that can and should be learned from previous generations," he adds.

The National Center for Family-Integrated Churches holds that the biblical order and unity of the family are crucial to the stability and health of the Church of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, churches have contributed to the breakdown of the family, the center claims.

Calling modern youth ministry "a weed that gained root in the church," Brown exhorted conference attendees on Friday to uproot it and to "replace it with God's beautiful plan for youth ministry."

"I hope that we are now at the end of this 50-year failed experiment," he stated. "We now have almost three generations of children who had no father who walked beside them but a youth group instead. It is obvious that half a decade of youth group does not produce young people who are passionate about the church."

Research and estimates by youth workers have suggested that a majority of youth group seniors drop out of church after graduating. The Fuller Youth Institute released findings from its longitudinal study of youth group graduates showing that about 40-50 percent of students struggle with their faith.

Brown insisted that though he rejects youth groups, he is not rejecting ministry to youth. Rather, he supports and promotes generous investments in teaching Scripture to youth.

"But we must do it in God's way," he stressed.

One place Christians can start from is marriage.

God-honoring marriage, Brown said, is the most important means of youth ministry. "When husbands love their wives, the children get a picture of what Christ does for His bride."

A Weed in the Church by Scott T. Brown
Paperback (300 pages)

I highly recommend this book by Scott T. Brown

Scott T. Brown is the man who is mentioned in Audrey Barrick's article in my previous post.

Here is a bit about the book:

Recent statistics suggest that between 65% and 85% of “Christian” youth leave the church when they enter college. This is a well-recognized crisis, but the cause of this crisis will surprise many. In his new book, A Weed in the Church, Scott Brown identifies the problem — age-segregated youth ministry — and says it is a weed growing in the church that needs to be rooted out. Brown argues that Scripture defines and wholeheartedly encourages ministry to youth, but that the premises of modern youth ministry are at odds with biblical teaching and must be reformed. Discover the problem of youth ministry in its historical context, and find hopeful solutions built on Scriptures’ sure foundation.

Endorsements:

"As I have watched what has happened in most of our churches, I have become convinced that Scott Brown is far more right than wrong on this matter. I, for one, am extraordinarily grateful that he has gone to the trouble to write this book and articulate the position. May God grant that many will listen to it before our families are totally lost and with them the churches also. Our families simply must have some time when they worship and study together.”

Dr. Paige Patterson, President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

The tragic fruit of families torn apart by their churches—which should be holding them together—surrounds us on every side. The experiment of age segregation in the churches has run its course, and the findings are clear. It’s time to pull the plug and go back to the old paths, the path God prescribed to Abraham, that fathers are to command our children to keep the ways of Jahweh by doing righteousness and justice, so that He may bring us what He has promised us (Genesis 18:19). Scott Brown’s book is a clarion call for just that—and it has arrived at a crucial time.

E. Calvin Beisner, Ph.D., Church Historian, Theologian, Founder and National Spokesman of The Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation, and a former Seminary and Christian College Professor.

"A Weed in the Church" is honest, thoughtful and biblical. In the best Reformation tradition it considers our own traditions in the light of God's Word. And then, directs us to obedience to the Word. I commend it highly."

RC Sproul Jr., Founder of Highlands Ministries, and a Teaching Fellow at Ligonier Ministries.

This book has far-reaching implications for Christianity, worldwide. Scott Brown explains how the traditions of men make the laws of God of none effect in the discipleship of our children. Is there any wonder why the faith has so little potency to effect the generations? May God bring repentance to the church in the west!

Kevin Swanson, Pastor of Reformation Church, Castle Rock Colorado and President, “Generations with Vision"

It may be purchased at the link below:

http://www.visionforum.com/browse/product/default.aspx?productid=63622

by twayneb on 2011/1/22
I have been "doing church" for 40 years now. I have worked on and off with teens for over 20 of that 40. This is what I think important.

Children and teens are to be seen as integral and important parts of the local body. They are not as mature as the adults, and have far more to learn, but that does not mean that they are not capable of being used by the Holy Spirit to minister to the body. Remember Philip the evangelist's four virgin daughters who prophesied over Paul's team. If you study the culture they were probably 16 and younger. Too often we relegate our youth to a position as "spiritually inferior" and ship them off to their own classes and church services. I don't think this wise. We need to operate as a body and to do so means that we need to be in unity even across age groupings.

That being said, there is some benefit to being able to address children and teens on a level unique to them. There is a place for teaching them individually.

I am not in favor of "youth groups" in the way that most of the modern church world defines them, but I am in favor of times when the youth are taught and trained as a group if that makes any sense. There is a difference in the two.

God bless,
Lisa

This is just my guess, but, somehow I don't think allowing children to have specialized ministries for 1-3 hours a week is the problem here. Somehow, like in school, I think the problem is at home. Students fail in school, not usually because of the teacher or the other students, but because their parents failed them at home. Likewise, the same could be said in regard to discipleship that happens in the context of the Church.

I personally teach a high school Sunday school class at my church. I pour my heart and soul into it every Sunday, and try to make the gospel and basic doctrines of the Bible crystal clear to those who come to the class. And while teaching, I've observed kids at different levels of knowledge regarding the things of God. Some have an outstanding knowledge of the Lord. Others, not so much. And why is this? It has almost nothing to do with me or the other ministers at the Church, or the structure of the Church and her programs.

By in large the difference you see between children has largely to do with what they are receiving at home. If they aren't getting it at home, then apart from them having a major supernatural revelation under my instruction (which I hope they do), all I can hope is that in my teaching the Lord will deeply engrain the word in their heart, and make it fruitful.

I'm all for integrated worship on Sunday mornings. Children should participate in the larger assembly. It is important. But to think this will somehow be a cure to the crisis we see amongst the youth, by simply doing away with an hour of specialized ministry geared specifically to the youth, is in my opinion, well, naive.

I hope the message at the link below will bless His people as they listen. It was certainly a blessing to me.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=621092034462

Those indwelt by His Spirit look to His Word for direction in ministry of any and every sort.

Ecc 11:9,10 "Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thy heart, and in the sight of thy eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment. Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity."

Ecc 12:1 "Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth..."

I too taught the High School aged youth. Teaching before and after I was born again. Even unregenerated, I saw the problem that some kids were being taught at home while the majority were not. This I would reason was due to the parent not being responsible for the childs education. While someone like KingJimmy has spent so much time and effort in his lesson, calling on the Lord to be his mouth, many parents will relenquish their responsibility because of it. Not unlike the many who sit under a man thinking he, as God's spokesperson, will supply them with their fill of what God would give them that week.I even recognized this problem before Christ lived in me. Afterward this problem became all to real. How to keep parents from shirking their God given duty to their children?

Some will say as long as the church provides the crutch, members will lean upon it. I understand there was a great debate among some when Sunday School Hit our shores several centuries ago. Alas the warnings were not heeded and those who spoke prophetically about parents surrendering their responsibilities has come to pass. As all traditions go the longer they stay with us the harder they are to reform. This one has become iron clad and for the most part many churches are above questioning it. They concern themselves of the vast Exodus of youth that abandon everything they had to do with the church thinking that they can make a correction and get everything back on course.

So the debate goes on. Do you penalize the few who are diligent and God fearing in the rearing of their children? Shall the whole thing be scrapped in order to bring parents to the responsibility that God has called them to. I say let the chips fall where they may. I do not like its link in history and I think it was just another way of organizing something that should have been hands off. In this fast paced world vying for the attention that is due our Lord and Savior there is a natural draw for the parent to releive himself of just one more time consuming task. I realize it takes a heart and desire to teach our children and many do not possess the Spirit that is optimal for the task but shall we because of it try to counter the weakness of many by institutions of the flesh? This is a holy ground and we had no business instituting something that lay outside of our jurisdiction when scripture spoke and still speaks to the responsibility of the parent. Inevitably the church will cry,"oh the illiteracy but if we clean our childrens room for them will they ever learn to clean it themselves? You give me a car and I will cease walking as much and suffer the ills of the lack of exercise. You give me a phone and I will cease to visit my friends and family like I should. You give me fast food and I will lose little time at lunch break but much from my life expectancy. All of these things will buy me more time. Yet with all this time saved, where does it go? You give me Sunday School and I will lean on another to do what God has called me to do. Why is this so hard to see. A long train is hard to stop and a giant ship is slow to turn.

As for the original posted question: to sit as a full body we lose nothing but gain much.

lylewise said,

"As for the original posted question: to sit as a full body we lose nothing but gain much."

Thanks for your post.

I thought it was wise lyle.

I listened to the following message for the second time, and I thought you and others here might appreciate it.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=621092034462

Happy listening