Are believers in Christ a saint and sinner or a saint who is sometimes sinning or...? What's our identity? Because the old men died, new creation is there. So it's not I but sin in me. How do you guys look at this?
Thanks God bless
Brother, this precise point is addressed by Oswald J Smith in very clear terms, in this month's featured sermon 'The Spirit Filled Life':
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6612&commentView=itemComments
I John says that whoever commits sin is of the devil. If we are saved, we are no longer a sinner. We cannot belong to God and the devil at the same time. We are now a child of God.
Any other thoughts?
This say it pretty plain;
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
"Born of God", is being Born Again by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever; Jesus Christ in you the hope of Glory;
Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
He is our perfection, He is now our life, the life that does not sin, the real "I" is Jesus Christ in me and He cannot sin. So, "It is no longer I who sin but sin that dwelleth in me", That is why the body of flesh (sin) must die and God give us a new body like His Son Jesus Christ.
Our Spirit is alive unto God by the Spirit of Christ in us, our soul/mind is alive unto God and being conformed to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit Teacher.
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ro 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
This is who we are to God; "It is no longer I", "but Christ who lives in me".
Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; ((((((yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:))))) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the (((faith of the Son of God,))) who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
We the Born Again are the son's of God by the Son of God that is in us. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. This is now our lives, we are dead to sin and the old man is dead to God. We are now new creatures in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
We are the New Creation of God, Christ Jesus being the first and the head of His Body the Church, which is "His Body".
In Christ: Phillip
Ans how then do we interpretate 1 Tim. 1:15 what Paul says about himself? Is he calling himself sinner / saint or...?
In Romans chapter 7 Paul explains the demise of why Christians fail to overcome sin.
When a Christian is baptized in the Holy Spirit they receive the seed that is Christ however they still have within them the seed (spirit) of man that has been an unclean spirit ever since the fall of man way back in the garden.
Through the seed (spirit) that is Christ,Christians have access unto God but through the spirit (seed) of man that has the law of sin within it Satan still has access unto the Christian.
Paul describes these two principalities to be opposing laws with his mind serving the law of faith but his flesh serving the law of sin. This is where knowledge comes into play because a Christian without knowledge is no match for Satan despite the best of intentions.
There will never be a marriage between Jesus and a church that is still having to deal with sin consequently learning how to overcome sin should be priority number one for all christians.......... or accept the fact that they will not participate in the wedding.
Blessings
Doug
Berry's Greek Interlinear uses 'first' instead of 'chief', as does Young's Literal, which follows here:
1 Timothy 1:15 stedfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners--first of whom I am;
The way I read this (in the light of OJ Smith's fuller explanation), is that Paul is placing himself "top of the class" of all who recognise they come to God as 'a sinner'.
The distinction that OJ Smith makes is with regard to confession of individual sins, which, he says, is not necessary by those coming to Christ the first time, as long as they acknowledge being 'a sinner'; but once one is a Christian, each sin must be acknowledged and separately repented of, for the joy of salvation to return.
Is Paul now referring to the number of times he's had to repent since becoming a Christian? Possibly, but that may be just a matter of perception. However, if one may have to forgive 'seventy times seven', then presumably it's possible to offend (God or man) at least that many times.
How we deal with offences, both in our own hearts toward God, and toward man, differentiates us from unbelievers, or it should do.
Sin is not just a verb that denotes an action but is also a noun that has been handed down to all of mankind....... something that is often called to be original sin aka the sin nature in man that causes them to sin.
Just because a person "becomes a Christian" does not rid them of this "thing called sin" that lives within them that Paul called "the thorn in his flesh and the messenger of satan".
However by learning the truth of the seven foundational doctrines allows a Christian to defeat the sin that lives within us through Christ being formed in them from the seed of Christ (aka Holy Spirit) that is the free gift of salvation
It is not a matter of how many times a Christian has sinned and gone through repentance and forgiveness since coming to Christ but are you or are you not going to overcome the sin that lives in you that is keeping Christ from being formed in you?
To date the only example we have of mortal man with Christ formed in them thus overcoming the sin in them are the Apostles. When one overcomes sin they become in harmony with God that is witnessed with signs following.
The whole purpose of Jesus Christ is not for us to be forgiven of our sins but to overcome sin thus becoming one with God. When that happens a it did with the Apostle then you will see a person that God will work miracle through them the same a He did through the Apostles.
This is why knowledge is so important and is what separates the NT Apostles from Christians today
Blessings
Doug
Hi Doug,
So where does this leave Paul's statement that 'our old man was crucified with Christ' and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin?this "thing called sin" that lives within them
In other words, is it not the death of Christ which released the whole of mankind from the undefeatable power sin had over him (man) until the cross? (Which each individual must appropriate by faith, before any overcoming is possible with the help of the Holy Spirit?)
Hello to you AtG
So where does this leave Paul's statement that 'our old man was crucified with Christ' and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin?
Well what come to my mind first is your username........ you are alive to God through His Son that said "pick up your cross and follow me" meaning that you (we) are to die daily. However if our old man was already destroyed dying daily would not be required of us. For example........ If Paul's "old man" had already been destroyed then Paul and the others would not have to die daily.
Jesus destroying our old man is the same as Him dying for the sins of the world....... He did die for the sins of the world and His work on the Cross is finished but there is still work to be done in us........ so we pick up our cross and die daily because without a death there cannot be a resurrection and to be resurrected as Christ is the hope of Him being formed in us.
For a similar example consider how Paul said that "we have the mind of Christ" that left in context (1Cor 2:16) has led many a Christian to believe that they have the mind of Christ when they do not.
They have fallen into that trap because they are disobeying the laws on how to determine the truth. Had they obeyed those laws and lived by every word that comes from God then they would have to weigh in why did Paul tell the church to "let this mind that was in Christ Jesus be in them" if in fact they already had the mind of Christ? (Phil 2:5)
Same thing goes with the example you used because without removing that passage from its context and comparing to other words spoken in the Bible and as Paul instruct us to,(1Cor 2:13) we cannot perceive the truth as God would have us to learn it.
Blessings
Doug
Aren't we To die daily in our flesh? The old man died says romans and galatians.
But back to my question because soms help with answers and some go way another way. Is Paul saying he IS à sinner and à saint as his identity or is He more talking about THE past and now Looking at himself as saint and how do we for ourselves need to See this? How Does God sees us and how should we See ourselves? And what would be THE consequenses of we See ourselves as saint And sinner instead of saint sometimes sinning?
God bless
How Does God sees us and how should we See ourselves? And what would be THE consequenses of we See ourselves as saint And sinner instead of saint sometimes sinning?
Gods sees you as you are and if you know the scriptures and are honest with yourself you see yourself the same way that He sees you.
For an example of a saint we have the first century church that were saints because of Christ in them that was given evidence through the signs and wonders that followed them.
We are all sinners saved by Grace and if we become saints it is because of His work and not ours............. as far as you are concerned you already know if you are doing the works of a saint or a sinner.
Blessings
Doug
Are we as à child of God from biblical perspective saints and Sinner or saint who sometimes sins, what is our identity as believer...that's what I mean.
And Does Paul mean in 1 timothy He IS à sinner as identity nOW or WAS à sinner because of all he did.
Ans how then do we interpretate 1 Tim. 1:15 what Paul says about himself? Is he calling himself sinner / saint or...?
Dirk,
To answer your question one have to look no furthur than the text itself. Just read the verse within the context. You will see that when Paul is refering to himself as the cheif, or the first( meaning the highesy ranking sinner), he is refering to his past sins.
12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Sinners that defeat sin are "overcomers" that still have sin in them but because they walk by faith and not by sight they have overcome the wicked one and do not sin anymore
John makes reference to them in 1Jn 2:13-15
Blessings
Doug
still have sin in them
If you mean by sin the flesh, then Yes.
Although the Bible says the if someone in Christ the flesh is dead. It does not mean dead without the ability to rise. The flesh can rise any time when we fail to be in Christ or fail to continue to abide in Christ.
The word dead in Biblical use when it refers to spiritual deadness is diferent from physical deadness. While some one who is physically dead can not make himself rise from the dead. On the other hand, some one who is spiritually dead can rise from the dead by faith.
Eph 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Rev 3:1,2
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Dear brother Doug (LesserLight)
This is a thinking error.you are alive to God through His Son that said "pick up your cross and follow me" meaning that you (we) are to die daily. However if our old man was already destroyed dying daily would not be required of us.
The following is an extract from Rom 5:12
'as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,'
The 'old man' who was crucified with Christ, was the SPIRITUAL man who was dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,..').
When 'our old man was crucified with Christ', captivity was taken captive. Death was abolished. (2 Tim 1:8 '... but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:)
This 'quickened ... together with Christ' is what Paul discusses in Romans 6. He is talking about accepting total death in principle, and yet without physically dying, AND accepting SPIRUTUAL resurrection life - yet without physically dying. (Eventually when we have physically died, we will experience a resurrected human body.)
My username comes straight from Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, BUT alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The taking-up of our cross daily, is the demonstration that I have reckoned myself dead to sin but alive to God though Jesus Christ our Lord.
The distinction between the eternal, and the daily, comes to light again in many places in the New Testament. Those which spring most readily to my mind, are
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
[Or, them that are being sanctified.]
[Or, them that are being glorified. See 2 Cor 3.]
and
Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [2 Cor 3 again.]
'The cross' for a Christian is experienced by walking in the Spirit, or, walking in the light as He is in the light. In 1 John 1:7, there is no mention of the cross, but rather of the continuous spiritual application of Christ's cleansing blood. There is no work to being dead in Christ. Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest... lest... unbelief'.
As UntoBabes said, it's only when we cease to abide in Him, we find ourselves in trouble with sin and, I would add, doubt.
This is a thinking error
Is it really ....... are you saying that John is wrong and you no longer have sin because the old man is where the sin in you is?
Linn........... What does Paul really say?
Ro. 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin MIGHT be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Please notice my emphasis on the word "might" that reflects the possibility of the body of sin in you being destroyed but for now unfortunately it seems to be succeeding very well at fooling you
Jesus did lead captivity captive and if and when Christ is formed in you then you too will lead captivity captive....... but lets be honest here about Christ being formed in Christians because the true mind of Christ does the works of Christ that are seen through signs and wonders.
To put it bluntly without the signs and wonders that proves the presence of Christ within, what we are looking at in Christians who think that they do not have sin in them is an impostor that looks like Christ and we all know who that is.
Paul makes it very clear he was still dealing with sin that lives within him and within us after receiving the Holy Spirit
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Paul continues with this doctrine of the law of sin living in him in 2nd Cor 12 when he speaks of the thorn in his flesh that is the messenger of satan. Later John speaks of sin still in Christians in his epistle and not only that but says very clearly that anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
By definition the term "law of sin" defines a principality still living within Christians and it will be within all Christians including you until the day you die ....... for more information of how law of sin has succeeded at deceiving christians through this "name and claim it" doctrine that you are speaking of and has gotten a hold of far to many Christians, please study the parable of the unclean spirit in Matt 12 and Luke 11
Now do you still think that sin in you has been destroyed and that both Paul and John are wrong ?...... or is it possible that are they are right and you have been deceived by the deceiver?
Being as between them and you that they are the ones with signs following them and not you, my money is on them.......... Because like the other Apostles they have overcome sin and are in harmony with God that allows Him to work miracle through them.
Blessings
Doug
Lesser Light, you say
"To put it bluntly without the signs and wonders that proves the presence of Christ within what we are looking at in Christians who think that they do not have sin in them is an impostor that looks like Christ and we all know who that is."
I believe you are walking on dangerous ground, Doug, if you believe that signs and wonders ie miracles, are the proof of the presence of Christ in a christian. Granted the early apostles did many signs and wonders, it was a very precious time, the birth of the church at pentecost, but the scripture does not indicate that we should be trying to emmulate or repeat that time.
A true christian has all the proof he needs within himself, the Holy Spirit constantly speaking in his heart, showing him the father's love and filling him day by day with all the glories of Christ. Yes, trials come, but they are as nothing.
The scriptures also warn us that in the last days there will be those who perform lying signs and wonders to deceive even the elect. Our faith does not lie in outward display of power, but in a day by day resting in Him. We live by faith, not by sight
David
David, thanks for your comments. I was looking at the same thing from a different angle, namely, that there are many different manifestations of Christ in a believer. A new creation, the fruit of the Spirit from those who abide in Him, and the gifts of the Spirit as the Lord has divided them to the believer.
For instance, Peter says this of women: 1 Peter 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
The 'great price' is His life given on the cross, imparted to us who believe, who do reckon ourselves dead in Him.
Doug, I'm not challenging Paul's statement. You are. I don't have anything to add to my earlier statements.Is it really ....... are you saying that John is wrong and you no longer have sin because the old man is where the sin in you is?
Of course. I have not suggested it is otherwise. What I offered to you is a more biblical division of the truths in Romans 5 and 6. You will see more clearly what I mean, if you read it in Young's Literal Translation for yourself.Paul makes it very clear he was still dealing with sin that lives within him and within us after receiving the Holy Spirit
He puts Rom 6:6 this way.
this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
Victory over sin BEGINS by reckoning myself dead in Christ. It may begin as a mind thing, but unless it settles in one's spirit as a matter of faith, one is stuck in the works of the flesh again.
Or, you reckon yourself dead. Can you see that?By definition the term "law of sin" defines a principality still living within Christians and it will be within all Christians including you until the day you die
Actually, the 'law of sin' is what drags us towards eternal death. In Christ, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, drags us towards eternal LIFE. (Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,..')
I'm not speaking of this doctrine you mention.this "name and claim it" doctrine that you are speaking of
I don't think Paul and John are wrong. I think though, it's possible you misunderstand them, and as a result have misunderstood me also.Now do you still think that sin in you has been destroyed and that both Paul and John are wrong ?......
Objection! How do you 'know' there are no 'signs following' my ministry? You can but be guessing, and you could consider guessing that there ARE signs following. Why not? Why take the negative option?Being as between them and you that they are the ones with signs following them and not you,
Amen. But Paul states clearly that not everyone has the same gifts.in harmony with God that allows Him to work miracle through them.
1 Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Cor 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 13 But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.... 17 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
In case you think I'm comparing myself to Apostles, let me clarify please: I am simply hiding in Christ, where my life is hidden with Him, in God.
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;...'
Doug, I'd like to make this my last post in this thread. I hope if others think I'm as wrong as you do, they will back you up. Thanks for the discussion.
This discussion is locked.
