Recently I have been attacked verbally by some who are athiests online on a certain forum I go to. I have noticed that one of the themes that pops up alot is references inthe OT where God comes across as a killer of people and references are cited for their reasonings. This is one ground that they reject Jesus and Christianity in general.
Has anyone ever encountered this and how did you handle it?
Not that I advocate getting into arguements with atheists/agnostics (especially on the internet), whenever I think of such scenarios, I imagine what people would think if a city nearby -- full only of murderers, child-sacrificers, drunkerds, molesters, robbers, who not only practiced these acts, but raised their children to be like that as well, and had be doing this for 400 years and had always rejected/slaughtered any ambassador of peace -- was suddenly entirely wiped out by an earthquake or an invading army. Would anyone feel any remorse? Or would they believe that justice was served for these people?
Genesis 18:22-32 is The LORD'S answer to Abraham.
Matthew 13:24-30 this is who they should be rejecting, the enemy!
I understand what it's like, I struggled with the same thing for ages as an agnostic. It was only when I began to see it as a shadow of what was to come that I really understood it at all.
Do we assume or know that the people back than were similiar to savages and as a result God told the Israelites to kill the inhabitants? Is this the key to understanding this whole scenerio?
I think Genesis 15:16 is a very important verse. God says "for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." while speaking of the land He will give Abraham, 400 years later.
The New Living Translates this as "for the sins of the Amorites do not yet warrant their destruction.”.
Basically, the way I read it, if God were to destroy the Amorites in the time of Abraham, many would be able to point the finger and call Him unjust, so for the glory of His name, He gives them 400 years to repent. After that time has passed, their iniquity does indeed "warrant their destruction" and The Judge of all the Earth certainly does right by commanding the Israelites to wipe them out.
In the Amplified Bible there's a great footnote on the subject of God's Justice in the destruction of the Amorites, but my copy is not nearby so I cannot supply it for you.
DJSavage, very well put. We must proclaim to all the "Goodness and the severity of the Lord". He is the same in the new as well as the old Testament.
Deadn, I don't know if the site you are refering to is Raycomforts athiestcentral, however I know it can be frustrating dealing with Atheists. Just remember "God dosen't believe in athiests." Meaning, even though they claim it, deep in there heart they know there is a God. On the day of judgement they will be without excuse. So go for the conscience more than the intelect also work the reasonablness of justice not only on earth but in the universe.
God strengthen you and keep you!
Deadn,
I don't assume to know anything in some of these passages except that God is steadfast in his love and righteous in his judgement, and that satan is a lier, and although he and his army have lost, they want to take the world down with them.
Atheists ask how can Christians legitimize a God who orders the genocide of entire nations?
Isn't it amazing that atheists claim the moral high ground over the Scriptures. That is the height of hypocrisy.
I have tried to reason with atheists but have found them willful in their un-belief.
The following is from "Answering the New Village Atheists"
"The very notion that God would command the obliteration of entire nations is abhorrent to skeptics and seekers alike. Thus, Richard Dawkins impugns the God of the Old Testament as “unjust,” “unforgiving,” “control-freak,” “vindictive,” “bloodthirsty,” “ethnic cleanser,” “genocidal,” “racist,” “pestilential,” “capricious,” and “sadomasochistic.” In reality, God’s commands are perfectly consistent with his justice and mercy.
First, a text without a context is a pretext. God’s commands to destroy the nations inhabiting the promised land of Canaan must never be interpreted in isolation from their immediate contexts.The command to “destroy them totally” (Deuteronomy 7:2) is contextualized by the words: “Do not intermarry with them . . . for they will turn your sons and daughters away from following me to serve other gods. . . . This is what you are to do to them: Break down
their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fi re” (vv. 3–5). As such, the aim of God’s command was not the obliteration of the wicked but the obliteration of wickedness.
Furthermore, God’s martial instructions are qualified by his moral intentions to spare the repentant. As the author of Hebrews explains, “By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient” (11:31). Not only
were Rahab and her family spared on account of her faith, she was allowed to live among the Israelites (Joshua 6:25) and came to hold a privileged position in the lineage of Jesus Christ (Matt hew 1:5).
God’s desire to spare the pagan city of Nineveh further illustrates the extent of his mercy for the repentant (see Jonah). Finally, God unequivocally commanded Israel to treat the aliens living among them with respect and equality. Foreigners living among the Israelites were allowed to celebrate Passover (Numbers 9:14; cf. 15:15), benefi ted from an agrarian system of welfare(Leviticus 19:9), and enjoyed full legal protection (Deuteronomy
1:16–17). Even descendants of Israel’s enemies, the Edomites and the Egyptians, were allowed to enter the assembly of the Lord(Deuteronomy 23:7–8). In fact, God condemned oppression of aliens,
with the words, “Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless, or the widow” (Deuteronomy 27:19).
(For further study, see Gary M. Burge, Whose Land? Whose Promise?)
Press, 2003), 82–93.
“If you really change your ways
and your actions and deal with
each other justly, if you do not
oppress the alien, the fatherless
or the widow and do not shed
innocent blood in this place, and
if you do not follow other gods to
your own harm, then I will let you
live in this place, in the land I gave
your forefathers for ever and ever.”
(Jeremiah 7:5-7)
DJ Savage is correct. Read Leviticus chapters 18 & 20 to see the gross sin which God forbid Israel because, we see by Leviticus 18:27 & Leviticus 20:23, that the nations God was casting out (killing by the Israelites) were doing every one of these exceedingly wicked things mentioned in these two chapters. The better question would certainly be, How could a good God not judge them so severely?
And then of course we see how God judged Israel/Judah later in the Old Testament by other groups of people when they became hopelessly corrupt is spite of the greater light they had. We also see God's great mercy in the OT when the Ninevites turned from their evil way when Jonah preached to them. And even with the Canaanites by sparing Rahab. And then look at God's judgment on Ananias and Sapphira in the New Testament- and on Herod- and on an ungodly world in Revelation- and on the ungodly at the last judgment! He's truly the same yesterday, today and forever!
DEADn,
I understand your question, but I have one of my own for these folks.
During times of natural disasters, like floods, tsunamis, earthquakes and storms you see people of faith out there rendering assistance to the victims caught in this tragedy. Do the agnostics, the atheists do likewise? I have never heard they band together for the purpose of helping people. Why not?
Ginnyrose
An answer that would be given about natural disasters and aid groups is that there are groups who go to these places who are not affiliated with religious groups. red cross i.e. Doctors without borders. Then you have Mormons as well. Many athiests will give links to certain thinks that they know of to show their humanity reaching out to others.
That kind of thing has to go deeper than just reaching out to your fellow man otherwise it because humanism.
When it comes to God it goes beyond just reaching out, anybody can reach out to a group of people needing help.
To the other posters,
What I probably need to do is read some of the OT and get an understanding of what things happened the way they do. It is too easy to point the finger at groups or God and accuse Him of vile acts. The Adversary does this so well and if we are not careful we begin doing it and not realizing it.
I see atheism and agnosticism as a new frontier, so to speak of America because even those who left the church have become these. I was on the borderline as well. Only for me, I got to the point that I knew God had to be there because of the past in my life and I held on to that fact and that kept a chain on me when I decided to walk back into the darkness of my soul as a result of my eyes being on other 'christians'.
Does this make sense?
John,
May I suggest you go to Ravi Zacharias website at www.rzim.org. On it he has lots of audios you can listen to that may help you with the questions you have. He appeals to the intellectual and reasons with them about God and how He is worthy...
I see atheism and agnosticism as a new frontier, so to speak of America because even those who left the church have become these
Unfortunately, the ones who have left Christianity are the worse ones to deal with. I know - I have wrangled with them too many times. They argue so and if one stands back a bit you can easily see how their reasoning is a result of defying the voice of the Holy Spirit - it is the arguments they have given Him and are very much on the defensive, hence the difficulty in reasoning with them. Jesus encountered this mindset in the Pharisees. Today we see a lot of it in people who have left the church. They are angry, bitter and you cannot reason with an angry and bitter person. They feel so justified in their state of mind.
God bless....just know the battle you see is merely a small one - God sees it all and he is no less displeased then you.
ginnyrose
Deadn, Keep strong and keep cool. I have talked with many atheist and agnostics and surprisingly a great deal of them were at one point and time abused or degraded by someone who they viewed as religious. I met quite a few who were Catholic and it seemed to be a pattern. One of the tactics of an atheist or agnostic is to attack you so you in turn will attack back whether it be sarcasm, name calling, or arrogance. As soon as they get you to do this your testimony in their eyes is shot and you no longer are a threat but are now just another hypocrite. When I go into a debate or discussion with either one, one of my main objectives is to not get into a theological debate but to try and figure out where religion burned them in the past and minister to that hurt.
Say someone was seriously rejected by the church for the way they appeared, I will generally apologize for the actions of those that judged them and tell them about Christ Jesus and His Love.
I say again but strong and keep your cool those are the keys to ministering Christ to that group of people. I would say a great deal of them aren't actually atheist or agnostic but in realty just angry at the church or even God if they have lived a hard life. Ministering to those wounds are what's important. I hope this helps you.
I always look to limit 'arguments' to discussions. Arguments begin shouting matches. A discussion is a conversation and trying to answer each others questions. The moment a disagreement happens and it begins to escalate is when an argument happens. For a christian this is a dangerous place because you go from a realm of sharing the gospel and proving or showing God is there to one that can cross into the human line of thinking and taking matters into our own hands. This puts a christian on his heels and instead of allowing the Spirit to lead you are allowing your soul to lead and it begins a dog chasing its tail journey to nowhere fast.
With my discussions I notice more athiests and agnostics coming forward than anyone else. Hence, there has to be an answer given somehow.
Deadn,
I keep thinking about your question...
I got to thinking about one thing - who committed the first murder? It was Cain. Murder, killing started with man...if you were to inform the agnostic about this, he will likely then blame God for making man knowing He will do such. But in so saying He would be admitting to the existence of God and his foreknowledge...but would he admit it?
This is what Ravi Zacharias says:“Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart, we are really not battling intellectual ideas as much we fighting for the right for our own sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?”
I suspect Ravi may be right....what say?
This discussion is locked.
