Hebrews/Jewish Roots movement

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows or has been a part of the jewish roots/hebrew roots movement? Also someone I know has given me some teachings by a gentleman by the name of dwight pryor. He seems to often reference rabbinic writtings and almost hold them up to the same level of scripture. Does anyone know anything else about this guy or the movement? thanks russ

Dear Rnieman,

As within any movement there are various positions taken, some extreme, others more moderate. If the movement you speak of includes the idea that it was converted gentile philosophers that steered the early church away from its mooring to the Torah and her Hebraic roots, then I have had much personal experience with dear friends who after embracing this teaching were led astray from the simplicity of devotion to Christ.

Among the extemes taught and promoted by "some" within this movement, is that the New Testament letters are not on the same "inspired" level as the Law and the Prophets. Those I spoke with personally, and the books they gave me to read, both marginalized Paul and thus minimalized the revelations he received about circumcision and the mystery of God making one new man in Christ Jesus.

I witnessed first hand this progression among personal friends. They began with the freedom to observe the Sabbath but not compeling others. It was not long before this freedom began to be explained as obedience and then exhorting others to consider the error of not observing the Sabbath. Soon we observed the wearing of tassels, and the discussions of dietary laws of clean and unclean meats. We were soon informed that any genetically modified food was unclean and therefore to be rejected. All of Paul's teachings on these subjects were reinterpreted in a Hebraic light.

It was not long before we began to hear of one new discovery after another. These discoveries involved observing all of the feasts and calendar days, beginning with looking for and sighting the new moon.

The fellowship we once enjoyed in the unity of the Spirit was eventually lost through the dividing wall of hostility. Where once we were all disciples of Christ Jesus, we became those who did or did not observe Torah. I would be glad to discuss this further with you privately or by email.

makrothumia

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows or has been a part of the jewish roots/hebrew roots movement? Also someone I know has given me some teachings by a gentleman by the name of dwight pryor. He seems to often reference rabbinic writtings and almost hold them up to the same level of scripture. Does anyone know anything else about this guy or the movement? thanks russ

You can find a lot of information here:

I found these two sites useful. The first link has in very depth information on the Hebrew Roots Movement. Second site has been very helpful also, in understanding the issues.

http://seekgod.ca/

http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

This is an easy thing to get entangled in.
There are also many movements such as these, we must remember that our faith is Jewish based but we are freed from the law. So study all the Jewish traditions etc but remember you are not under the law but under grace.

This is my opinion.

Hi all,I think that anything that trys to bring you back under the law cant be right however I have heard Dwight Pryor a few times on Tv and he seems Ok to me.I dont think he made any attempt to preach the law.I just searched him on the web and I dont see much wrong with it.
I do think that we need to look at the bible through the eyes of the hebrews because protestant hermenutics doesnt get it all.The hebrews are the root of the tree.
Jewish hermenutics of the bible opens your eyes to things you would miss out on.I reccomend a sermon By Jacob Prasch on a subject called Midrash which is a Jewish way of looking at the bible.Its on sermonindex,Staff

Something doesn't seem right about that statement.

Jewish hermenutics of the bible opens your eyes to things you would miss out on.I reccomend a sermon By Jacob Prasch on a subject called Midrash which is a Jewish way of looking at the bible.Its on sermonindex,Staff

1Co 2:6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:

and this.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.

Here is a rebuttal to Jacob Prasch's Midrash just to balance things out. To me, this has more of the "ring" of truth to it.

http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/midrash.html

Hi,
Firstly in the Midrash sermon Prasch didnt say that protestant hermenutics was bad and neither do I.Secondly Midrash doesnt say that its pattern not prediction,it says its not just prediction its pattern also;their is a big difference.I have listen to a number of Praschs sermons and at no stage does he try to bring people under the law.Neither does Dwight Pryor as far as I can see. I do disagree with him on loosing your salvation.
Thirdly the majority of the bible was written by Jews,shouldnt we try to look at things the way they did to understand it.
Fourthly Corinthians scripture you quote could easily be talking about protestant view as well as the Jewish view.
If no one had heard of either the Holy Spirit could show us anyway.
The only thing I think looking at some of the scripture as pattern fills in alot of gaps.It is obvious I think that the old testement does have prediction and pattern and if you wanted to study a specific doctrine like the rapture for instance you will find that all the previous raptures will tell us about the final rapture.
I have read the article and it does seem to come accross as a rant against Jacob Prasch in part altough some of the other articles are interesting.Even non Jewish Christians recognise that their is a great value in knowing hebrew etc
An example of how looking at the bible as pattern that the lord showed me: While studying Kings I wondered why God highlighted 42 bears coming out of the woods at the children that mocked Elisha and only by knowing that their was a pattern I wouldnt have understood it fully.
I dont think that Midrash makes any attempt to bring Christians back under the law,it just says that if you look at scripture the way the Jews look at it you will see that their is prediction and pattern in prophesy rather than just prediction.
I do think it is very unfair however that Apostasy Now links Jacob Prasch by writing in the same article to wanting to go back to dietary law or the like.I have never heard him speak of nothing other than saved by Grace.Staff

Referring to the Midrash, Mr. Prasch said:

" It takes the wisdom of the ancients to really understand these things." 8.

Does that mean we are all going to need our own Rabbi?

I wonder if you are aware of these teachings by Jacob Prasch concerning Midrash and other things.

Peter Michas, Jacob Prasch and others in the Hebrew Roots, favour the Midrash. Hyam Maccoby notes that The Haggada of the Midrash is composed of Jewish fables:

"The Haggada (found mainly in the Midrash) is the poetical side of Pharisaism, and comprises folktales, parables, quaint fancies and metaphysical speculations." 34.

God issues this warning in the Scriptures found in Titus 1:14:

" Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

Psalm 119:104,105

"Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

In his article, Explaining the Midrash, Jacob Prasch stated that we need the knowledge of the Midrash and Jewish thought to rightly understand the Bible.

"…But Matthew appears to take the passage out of all reasonable context and twist it into talking about Jesus. We have to ask, is Matthew wrong? or is there something wrong with our Protestant way of interpreting the Bible? There is nothing wrong with Matthew, and there is nothing wrong with the New Testament. But there is something wrong with our Protestant mentality…They were reading a Jewish book as if it were a Greek book… The first step is going back to reading the Bible as a Jewish book, instead of as a Greek one." 7.

Referring to the Midrash, Mr. Prasch said:

" It takes the wisdom of the ancients to really understand these things." 8.

"Wisdom of the Ancients" bears an uneasy resemblance to Ancient Wisdom, which is the esoteric term used by occultists for Gnosis or Mysticism. William Kingsland wrote of this wisdom in his book, " THE GNOSIS OR ANCIENT WISDOM IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES: OR THE WISDOM IN A MYSTERY":

"...when I speak of the Gnosis, I do not refer specifically to the Greek or Coptic variety, but to that 'Ancient Wisdom' which can be discovered as a thread of gold running through allegories and myths and fables from the very earliest times of which we have any literary records, and which has more recently been somewhat more fully expounded to us by some of the existing Masters of that Wisdom." 9.

Are Christians unable to understand the Bibles teachings without this Ancient Wisdom?

Psalm 19: 7-11:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping them there is great reward."

What about other sources of Jewish thought regarding the Messiah, the kingdom of God, sin and salvation? How do teachings expounded from the "Ancient Wisdom" compare with the New Testament teachings? What differences may be found between the inspired Old and New Testament and the "Mishnah, Haggadah, Halakah, Talmud and Midrash?" Has the Holy Spirit equally inspired these sources?

Perhaps Peter Michas is correct in saying that we need to understand the original concepts from history and as they are taught now —particularly from these books and the Jewish people themselves. Obviously, they would hold the keys to the Hebrew Roots of Christianity as taught by the Jewish sages.

Avi ben Mordechai, an Orthodox Sephardic Jew, concurs with Hebrew Roots teachers that the ancient Jewish teachers of the Law hold the answers:

"…Since Sha’ul followed Messiah Y’shua, who also taught the Oral and Written Torah, I submit (at this time in my life) that we should be following in the footsteps of Judaism’s great teachers of G-d’s Law,… I believe that Judaism’s ancient scholars and sages were far more knowledgeable on the Oral Traditions than we could ever hope to be." 10.

Many involved in Judaism and the Hebrew Roots movement embrace the idea that the Talmud is divinely inspired and of benefit to Christianity. In the past, not surprisingly, some Jews have viewed the Talmud as an obstacle, preventing reconciliation between the groups.

We know that many people, Jewish and non-Jewish, do not consider the New Testament to be of God.

However, Avi ben Mordechai redefines the gospel as the Oral Torah:

"…When Paul says, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel" you need to see the definition of Gospel in light of the Mishnah of Mark 1:1ff. It's a direct connection to the Torah of Moshe- Oral and Written…" 27.

It has been established that the oral traditions of the Pharisees, which were committed to the Talmud, take authority and precedence over the Old Testament, as Judaism's holiest book. The Talmud contains material accumulated over several centuries. A complete collection consists of 63 books in 524 chapters. The main elements of the Talmud are the Mishna, the Gemara (Babylonian and Palestinian) and the Midrashim or Midrash. The Mishna and Gemara compose the Jerusalem Talmud, which was revised in the third to fifth century and later named the Babylonian Talmud, the one commonly used today. Credit is given to Rabbi Judah the Prince for the compilation of the Mishna around 200 A.D.

http://www.seekgod.ca/embracebible.htm

And,

Jacob Prasch and the Synoptic School of Research
http://www.seekgod.ca/jpfriends2.htm

The problem with studying Jewish Roots is that so much teaching is muddied by Rabbinical sources. This problem is to the extent that it is nearly impossible to reconstruct what Judaism looked like in the 1st Century. There is no road back to it and if there were it is questionable as to what relevance various ideas would have in our times.

The Old Covenant is just that, Old. It has waxed old and is ready to vanish away. The Temple in Jerusalem is gone along with it's supporting priesthood, never to be returned. It was only a type of the true Temple which is the Body of Christ found in heaven and earth.

This is not to say that there are not many useful things to learn studying Jewish Roots. The trap is set for those desiring to find 'authentic' Christianity. For that you must look to the scriptures. There you will find our Great High Priest moving in the midst of the churches, trimming their lamps and speaking to them respectively. This is the exact opposite of Rabbinical teaching. The Rabbi's say, 'it is not in heaven' and have assumed authority in all matters spiritual. One must know this in advance of any study of Jewish Roots. I would recommend the book, Rabbi Akiba's Messiah by Daniel Gruber. Therefore, it is a subject that must be approached with extreme caution.

______________________________
edited to add link:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1957

There are way too many things today that do not pass the Simplicity Test.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with him.

Most things today that do not pass the simplicity test, usually gather people unto men rather than pointing to Jesus. And this is what obscures the gospel and slowly but surely puts people in bondage to men and their concepts or idealogies (doctrines).

First rule of discernment: Does it pass the simplicity test?

Is it drawing away from Jesus or pointing towards Him?

Second rule: Is man the interpreter or the Holy Spirit?

The Gospel was meant to be simple, but the modern day Scribes have set themselves up as the "Interpreters".

In the middle ages the Word of God was literally burned, however today, it is being burned word by word by redefinition and retranslation so that it has no effect on anyone, anymore. Poison Water. A little leaven. Mixture.

urbanus wrote:
Here is a rebuttal to Jacob Prasch's Midrash just to balance things out. To me, this has more of the "ring" of truth to it.

What about those who are Jewish and have been converted? It doesn't make sense that they might be expected to forget all their festivals and what they’ve been taught from infancy to take up ONLY the King James bible.

I read the KJV but personally, I thank God we have more than just the King James bible available to us today but that's me.

God bless you,
Lisa

"what about those who are Jewish and been converted"?

Good question.

Here is a group of Messianics that offer a different perspective. Please don't get the impression that all Messianic Jews ascribe to all these "extra" materials for lack of a better word. Natan4jesus's testimony is just one other example. This HRM movement of what I call the Messys ( because it is literally quite messy) happens to be a lot of Gentiles, which is a bit strange. They look up their genealogy to hopefully find some link somewhere in their ancestry with Jewish members. What does the Bible say about genealogies? Again, it does not pass the simplicity test.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Cor 11:3

http://www.givengain.com/cgi-bin/giga.cgi?cat=537&cause_id=1507&cmd=cause_dir_news

thank you brothers and sisters. Russ

Hi,
(First rule of discernment: Does it pass the simplicity test?

Is it drawing away from Jesus or pointing towards Him?

Second rule: Is man the interpreter or the Holy Spirit?

The Gospel was meant to be simple, but the modern day Scribes have set themselves up as the "Interpreters". )

I think Pryor and Prasch are been dealt with unfairly,At no stage did I find either of them trying to bring christians under the law.I have heard some posts complaining about how Jacob Prasch intreprets.This complaint can only be upheld if what he intreprets is unscriptural.Which is the same for every preacher as it should be,bring forth the scripture they intrepret wrongly or falsely and show why it is so.
The Gospel is simple as simple can be,it also can be difficult to understand even Peter said:

2 Peter 3.15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If I am saved but have no scriptures can the lord lead me? Yes.Would I be better off with the scriptures?yes
Which will I get more information from having just a bible or having a bible and a concordance?A commentary or concordance or dictionary are just tools to help explain subjects not easily seen.This I feel by understanding the Jews of the bible we might see a meaning or a teaching missed if we hadnt.If I hadnt heard any of the sermons on sermonindex some of them complicated would the lord still find away to teach me.Yes.To me studying prophesy and realizing it is not just a straight forward prediction all the time has really helped my study which can only draw you nearer to the lord.
The Gospel is made for all men the simple,the complicated,the educated and the uneducated,the intelligent and the very intelligent.Shouldnt someone who loves studying the word get his reward.?Yes and that reward might come out of covering difficult and complicated topics.
We have many gifts in the body, what you may call an intrepretor may be an inspired Teacher or a prophet.
Any man who sets himself up to be anything will fall this is assured,but may their fall be graceful and may the lord set them up himself ,yours Staff