2THESS 2:7 Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?

Hi all,
Dont stone me yet!!!!Do we just use this passage because it suits our tribulation view?
This is commonly understood by many has the church been taken out and then comes the lawless one.
We can tell a few things from the text
a.it is a person because it says HE
b.He restrains
c.He can be taken out of the way
Both Michael and The Holy Spirit are persons.
Both Could restrain
Definitely Michael could be taken out of way but of the Holy Spirit I dont know for sure.
Michael is a military Angel and is described as a your prince in one passage.Could one of Michaels Jobs be as a restrainer?
I am not saying that it is the case but the arguement for Michael as the restrainer seems as valid as The Holy Spirit.
I invite the reader to show me where I am going wrong,
Thanks Staff

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

I would simply suggest that since the Holy Spirit did not tell us who it is that we should just be content not to know. I would also say that Paul never once mentioned Michael in any of his writings. Not only that, Michael is mentioned nowhere in the context nor in any epistles save Jude.

I know Marv Rosenthal who wrote the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, believes that. Cannot recall where the original thought came from.

What was the angels name that came to David after restraining the Prince of Persia?

Very interesting subject in light of current events by the way. Satan does nothing unless the Lord permits it and it looks like some restraint has been removed from a "prince" in the middle east. Could it be the Prince of Persia again? Whoever, it is unmistakeable that some restraint has been removed.

Question:

"Could Micheal the Archangel be the restrainer if not why not?"

Answer:

mi (who),ke (like), El (God)

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

Matthew Henry comments on Rev. 12:7,

"The parties - Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and all his instruments. This latter party would be much superior in number and outward strength to the other; but the strength of the church lies in having the Lord Jesus for the captain of their salvation."

The devil stands before the woman throughout the old dispensation in an inimical attitude for the purpose of devouring her child as soon as it has been born. However, his efforts are vain. Christ is born, performs His work, and is exalted to highest glory at the right hand of the
Almighty. Now parallel with this effort of the dragon
against the woman runs the incident recorded in the
words of our text and which speaks of the battle of
the spirits in heaven.

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon -
Michael was the man child which the woman brought
forth, as is evident from the context." (W.E. Vine)

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: by whom is meant not a created angel, with whom his name does not
agree, it signifying "who is as God"; nor does it
appear that there is anyone created angel that
presides over the rest, and has them at his command;
it seems best to interpret it of Jesus Christ, who is
equal with God, is his fellow, is one with the Father,
and in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily:
he is the Archangel, the first of the chief princes,
the head of all principality and power, who is on the
side of the Lord's people, pleads their cause, defends
their persons, and saves them;see Jud.1:9;" (John Gill)

Jud. 1:9 -

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel,.... "By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Dan_10:21." (Gill)

"Yet Michael the archangel - Of this personage many
things are spoken in the Jewish writings “Rabbi Judah
Hakkodesh says: Wherever Michael is said to appear,
the glory of the Divine Majesty is always to be
understood.” Shemoth Rabba, sec. ii., fol. 104, 3. So
that it seems as if they considered Michael in some
sort as we do the Messiah manifested in the flesh."

"Let it be observed that the word archangel is never
found in the plural number in the sacred writings.
There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or
head of all the angelic host. Nor is the word devil,
as applied to the great enemy of mankind, ever found
in the plural; there can be but one monarch of all
fallen spirits. Michael is this archangel, and head of
all the angelic orders; the devil, great dragon, or
Satan, is head of all the diabolic orders. When these
two hosts are opposed to each other they are said to
act under these two chiefs, as leaders; hence in
Rev.12:7, it is said: Michael and his angels fought
against the Dragon and his angels. The word Michael,
seems to be compounded of mi(who), ke(like),and El
(God); he who is like God hence by this personage, in
the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus." (Adam
Clark)

Dan 12:1 - "And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of
thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such
as never was since there was a nation [even] to that
same time: and at that time thy people shall be
delivered, every one that shall be found written in
the book."

The angel here notes two things: first that
the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at
Christ's coming, and next that God will send his angel
to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning
Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the
Gospel". (Geneva Notes)

Jesus Christ shall appear his church's patron and
protector: At that time, when the persecution is at
the hottest, Michael shall stand up, Dan_12:1. The
angel had told Daniel what a firm friend Michael was
to the church, Dan_10:21. He all along showed this
friendship in the upper world; the angels knew it; but
now Michael shall stand up in his providence, and work
deliverance for the Jews, when he sees that their
power is gone, Deu_32:36. Christ is that great prince,
for he is the prince of the kings of the earth,
Rev_1:5. And, if he stand up for his church, who can
be against it? But this is not all: At that time (that
is, soon after) Michael shall stand up for the working
out of our eternal salvation; the Son of God shall be
incarnate, shall be manifested to destroy the works of
the devil. Christ stood for the children of our people
when he was made sin and a curse for them, stood in
their stead as a sacrifice, bore the cure for them, to
bear it from them. He stands for them in the
intercession he ever lives to make within the veil,
stands up for them, and stands their friend. When
Christ appears he will recompense tribulation to those
that trouble his people. There shall be a time of
trouble, threatening to all, but ruining to all the
implacable enemies of God's kingdom among men, such
trouble as never was since there was a nation. This is
applicable. 1. To the destruction of Jerusalem, which
Christ calls (perhaps with an eye to this prediction)
such a great tribulation as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, Mat_24:21. This
the angel had spoken much of (Dan.9:26, Dan.9:27); and
it happened about the same time that Christ set up the
gospel-kingdom in the world, that Michael our prince
stands up. Or, 2. To the judgment of the great day,
that day that shall burn as an oven, and consume the
proud and all that do wickedly; that will be such a
day of trouble as never was to all those whom Michael
our prince stands against. (Matthew Henry)

hi,I take all your points as valid.I did notice that it is a scripture used as a definite by some to argue for a tribulation view and I guess I was trying to point out that we cant be certain about the HE only that the He is good,Staff

Or we could simply believe what the bible says and not be changing it to fit our doctrine.

A man is a man; an angel is an angel and Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Michael is an angel which stands for "Daniel's people" ie Israel. The church is the body of Christ, and was not revealed to previous ages ie the prophets. It is not of this world, it was hidden and is hidden with Christ in God. It will be revealed at His glorious appearing.

David

Hi Savannah Thanks for such a detailed reply.I have read this teaching before but not in such detail.Before I posted I looked for a name definition but I couldnt find one,so thats great.
I have read your post in full and without sounding stupid are you saying yes or no?
Thanks again staff

Hi Jesus-is-GOD ,
Just before I looked at both those posts and I didnt know what to make of them.What do you get when you compare them?,Thanks staff

davidc,

You said,

"A man is a man; an angel is an angel and Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Genesis 32:24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Daniel 3:24,25 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Genesis 18:1-3 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

"And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, 'I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.'...Moreover He said, 'I am the God of your father -- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God...Then Moses said to God, 'Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you," and they say to me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?' And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' And He said, 'Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."'" (Exodus 3:2-14).

"Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, 'Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You.'
And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, 'Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD.' (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)
Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, 'What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?'
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, 'Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?'
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on -- it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar -- the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God!'
But his wife said to him, 'If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.'" (Judges 13:14-23).

The "Angel of the LORD" is revealed to be the LORD Himself.

"In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them."
(Zechariah 12:8).

Re: "Church in the Wilderness", i.e. Israel

Acts 7:37-40 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Gal 6:15,16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

1 Peter 2:5-10 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
[See Exodus 19:5,6] that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.(See Hos. 1:6,9,10 and 2:1,23)

And finally, may we continually have this Word before us,

James 3:1 My brothers do not be many teachers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment.

staff,

"...are you saying yes or no?"

Assuredly and emphatically, I am saying to you, NO!

The Thessalonian believers to whom this letter was originally sent and read to, would have known of whom Paul was referring when he mentioned the restrainer.

2 Thess 2:3-6 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God.(See Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2).
Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you? And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.

Although we can, with great certainty, know of whom Paul was not referring to, the text in its context does not identify who the restrainer is.

What we do know from the text is:

What restrains translates "that which is right now continuously restraining" (the language used is the present participle).

It literally translates, "to hold down or hold back." And the gender is neuter, which emphasizes the force exerted in restraining something. We then read, 'He who restrains' in which the gender is masculine.

Now indicates that this restraining power was active in Paul's day at that very moment.

Again, I'd emphasize that the text be read in its context. To do so simply does not allow for the erroneous interpretation that futurism has imposed upon it(See vs.3-6 above).

I have found Thomas Manton's sermon on this passage helpful(SERMON V - 2 THES. II. 5-7). Below is an excerpt of that sermon:

"To reprove them that think this is a curious point not to be searched into. Why then did God reveal it, and that so often by St Paul, by St John, in so many prophetical representations of it? Surely it is not curiosity to search into things revealed, but to intrude ourselves into things hidden, and which God hath put under a veil of secrecy. It is true men must know their measure, and not attempt to run before they can go, and venture upon obscure points before well versed in plain; and it is true, in more abstruse points, men must not rashly define, but soberly and modestly inquire, and compare predictions with plain events; this is no way culpable."
(if interested you may read the sermon at the following link: http://www.truecovenanter.com/manton/manton05.html )

I find myself agreeing with most if not all of what is written in Manton's sermon, the Holy Spirit Himself bearing witness with my spirit as to the Truth, He being the Spirit of Truth and God being the God of all Truth. Amen.

Bless God...

All ye His saints -

hi,Thank you for taking the time to post again.I will definitely have a look at that link you gave,Much appreciated, Staff

It is not clear to me that the Angel of the Lord is the same as an archangel. My understanding has been that the Angel of the Lord refers to Jesus, while Michael the archangel is an angel.

Question; Is Michael the Arc Angel Jesus Christ? Only if He is could he be the restrainer. The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit of God. Not Jesus Christ or Michael. Who is at work in the Body of Christ? Christ is our life, finished. The Comforter is the one who restrains Satan because Christ defeated Him on the Cross when it comes to the Body of Christ His Church. The Comforter is our Teacher and the Power of the Life of Christ birthed in us, (born again). If the Holy Spirit leaves with the Body of Christ the Church, for He is no longer with us but in us, in the Rapture, who is left to restrain?

In Christ: Phillip

Savannah, you are right, I should not have been so dogmatic.

Regarding the Restrainer, I agree completely with ChristInYou's remarks about the Holy Ghost and the church being raptured before the Man of sin is revealed

David.

hi,this is an interesting point could you just expand on that a little if you have time,thanks staff

2 Thess 2:1-3 (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Alive-to-God, you say that verse 2 above is incompatible with the church's rapture before the man of sin is revealed. Perhaps if you saw that the phrase "that day" in verse 3 refers to "the day of Christ" in verse 2. Paul uses various phrases to indicate the time of judgement descibed in detail in chap 1 vs 7 to 10, including "the day of the Lord" and "the Day of Christ". Paul was concerned that the saints at Thessalonica had heard another message teaching that that day had come, or was present (which is a better translation of "at hand" ).

In this second chapter he shows them that certain events had to occur before that Day came, as Jesus also taught in Matthew 24.

Confusion only arises if we do not distinguish between the Lord's coming for us His church in the clouds, which is an imminent event (it could happen any day without any foretold event preceeding it); and the Day of the Lord, when He will come With His saints (we will appear with Him in glory), and His feet shall stand on the mount of Olives. The events descibed here in 2 Thess and Matthew 24 will preceed that Day of the Lord.

Can I say also that this is my understanding of what the bible teaches. I know that many other of my brothers and sisters in Christ,whom I love, see things differently and I do not want to get into any contention or arguement with any. If you see things another way, that's what these pages are for.

David