Could I get a Post Tribulation view if possible on the following....

S

staff Feb 4, 2011

Hi All,May the lord bless your study!
I genuinely am looking for an anwser for this specific question.I have looked in previous posts to see if this question was anwsered and I couldnt find any but I am sure their must be a straight forward anwser.
My understanding about post trib rapture is that the church will go through the 7 yrs and at the end their will be one ressurrection,the dead in Christ and us that remain;
The Scenario is this,we have endured years of tribulation,the earth and its inhabitants are in a terrible state,the sun darkened,all of the nations mourning etc yet Jesus paints a picture of marrying,eating,drinking and of men being in the field working presumedly and women grinding.
How does that marry up?I Would like to hear a post tribulation view in particular if possible or as well as any other views and I would hope we could stick roughly to the specific theme?yours staff

Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
AND
Matt 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

sermonindex Feb 4, 2011

Hi Staff. I'm not sure if all the nations will be "mourning" because as I've noticed how quickly we forget disasters even now. It takes no time for us to move onto the next subject even now and we're not fully into the days of the "strong delusion" - so we can only imagine how reprobate these people who take the mark are - they'll be so calloused by iniquity abounding that any earthquakes etc that happen will be common place to them and they'll forget these things even faster than we do now. How many sit and grieve over earthquake victims from a year ago or more? Places like Pakistan, Haiti, Burma - even now?
So you can imagine the heartlessness of these reprobates with the mark, if even we bearly care or remember for that long or if we even grieve at all for them for more than a day or so. As long as it's not in our own backyard - we just read it as News and move on to the next topic - so imagine those who worship satan caring. No, they'll be partying and cursing GOD at the same time.... until He comes and splits the sky.

Edit: I'm thinking more now - of the famines across the world presently and the deaths of many children and now the deaths of many birds and sea life --- how much do we care - nonetheless these reprobates of these last days?

sermonindex Feb 4, 2011

Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days..."

KJV states, "After the Tribulation of those days...." This is post Tribulation, when Jesus returns, gathers His saints, and pours out immense wrath upon His enemies.

staff writes:...........
"The Scenario is this,we have endured years of tribulation,the earth and its inhabitants are in a terrible state,the sun darkened,all of the nations mourning etc;, yet Jesus paints a picture of marrying,eating,drinking and of men being in the field working, presumably, and women grinding.
How does that marry up?"..staff

The sun is darkened, and pure wrath is poured out, after the saints are gathered. Up until that time, the Anti-Christ seems to be winning, and proving that he is indeed the Savior and God.

He is a "man of PEACE" presumably, with the portions of the world he rules over in a relative peace and prosperity. He wars against the "saints"..["called out and elected ones"], and murders many and persecutes them.

Yet, it appears that several wars have occurred, and not all of the Earth, obviously, is conquered at once. There will be a remnant survive until His coming.

Faith is hidden in the heart of the believer, as is the lack of it in those not born again. Only God knows the difference..[vs:41]

Zac Poonen's Revelation Series is very good, and may help you...BT

S

staff Feb 4, 2011

hi,Thanks for your post,
I did think that out in my mind,was their time to recover and their is just not.
The Earth has come out of economic failure,their is no light and no plant growth (no food)and we are marrying,eating,drinking and working as usual.This is the most catastrophic time according to the bible the world has ever seen...ever.Think about post war Germany for instance,things were desparate ,it took ages at least a year for recovery and their was proper sunlight etc
Its a time when babylon the great has fallen,which means no work either,no social welfare,no world wide trade,the whole system is played out.It will be in our backyard,their is no escapism with the post view.It effects everything it is not just a famine or a flood.Its a sustained period of disaster for 7 years.We couldnt be eating and drinking etc.
Also according to the post view after the 7 years their is no topic except ressurection to move on to.The 7 years are up.
I respect all the views on the rapture because it takes alot of study to understand everyones views and takes alot of research.Thanks Staff

sermonindex Feb 4, 2011

Staff, what you need to do is, with pen and paper, make three rows and write down in the first line, what happens with each of the 7 Seals. In the second column, what happens with the 7 trumpets and then in the third column, what happens with the 7 vials which are called GOD's Wrath.
Many of us - not all - believe that we are resurrected at the last or 7th trumpet and His Wrath is poured out with His Coming - while we've met Him "in the air".

You have all these things happening all at the same time and that's where you've made a mixture there.

Besides, I see nothing about 7 years - only 3 1/2 years of antiChrist.

sermonindex Feb 4, 2011

Where did you get some of these details btw? Economic failure - no light or plant growth - no food?

They'll have the mark to buy and sell and if you could, as suggested, write down what happens with each Seal and Trumpet - I think you'll see that only 1/3rd and 1/4th are destroyed at a time. That's not total worldwide destruction.

Whether you're pre-trib or not - it still says that they'll be married, eating drinking etc when He comes - so it's not the post-trib belief that is a question for you but how these who are eating and drinking and given in marriage can still be doing so AT His Coming.

He said that, He's Only coming "as a thief in the night" for those who aren't watching - but not for those who are - we'll be ready - by the signs of the times that we've watched ... but as Tom said - most of us will be killed - Rev 20:4-6.

S

staff Feb 4, 2011

Brothertom wrote:quote]portions of the world he will rule over wiill have relative peace and prosperity

Hi Brothertom,
I appreciate your post but I dont know anywhere in the scriptures where it says that after the breaking of the covanent in the middle of the 7 days that there will be some places places in the world that escape.
All scriptures point to a terrible time and that no one would survive unless the days were shortened.If some parts of the world were relatively ok we could just go to them places.Also why did Jesus give examples of peace and prosperity like noah,lot,the women at the mill and the men in the field,shouldnt he have given examples of the two men sick from hunger etc.
Mark 13:20 NIV
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
I have listened to two sermons on index for trib and post and I learned alot from both particulary the post trib view.However this doesnt marry up?Thanks Again Staff

sermonindex Feb 4, 2011

That's the problem - listening to sermons instead of studying His Word alone.

I didn't get my beliefs from anyone. I just sat at my kitchen with a Bible and a Strong's concordance back in the 80's and hand wrote every verse pertaining to the last days from the O.T. and New and none of it contradicted itself - and my mouth dropped open in shock. It was almost 20 yrs later before I got the internet and found out that I wasn't the only one who was post-trib.

We see the "trib" as the seals and trumpets and the vials as His Wrath that we will escape by meeting Him Returning "in the air".

Edit: the few of us that are not killed by then, that is.

S

staff Feb 5, 2011

hi,I understand that their are some differences even with people on the same side of the debate but you paint a very easy 3 1/2 years of great tribulation thats my point.
Their can be no gap between the rapture and the coming of the son according to this scripture.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be . 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .
and this scripture doesnt pay a pretty picture

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. Thanks Staff

S

staff Feb 5, 2011

Hi,

(That's the problem - listening to sermons instead of studying His Word alone.)Thats a poor comment if you dont mind me saying so.
I love studying but also sermonindex is a great resource.
All i am saying is that Jesus and The Holy Spirit point out clearly what the The Great Tribulation will be like and at the end of the 3 1/2 years the world will be played out.
It certainly in my opinion wont be business as usual eating ,drinking, working.I dont have to count the seals or trumpets or any judgements which are important but it will be a time unparrelled,Thanks Staff

sermonindex Feb 5, 2011

hi,I understand that their are some differences even with people on the same side of the debate but you paint a very easy 3 1/2 years of great tribulation thats my point.
Their can be no gap between the rapture and the coming of the son according to this scripture.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be . 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .
and this scripture doesnt pay a pretty picture
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. Thanks Staff

I understand now. You didn't start this thread for an honest inquirey, but to argue your own view. I won't argue this view but thinking you wanted what the Bible says, I replied, but shouldn't have, I see now.

AntiChrist will reign for 3 1/2 years. That's in your bible.

"37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be ."

It says, "so shall also The 'COMING' of The Son of man be."

This begs the question - How many times is He "Coming"?

How many raptures are there, if you look at Rev 20:4-6?

Before GOD, we are responsible to get our doctrine from The Bible and not from Sermons.
Sermons are GREAT, once you have your doctrine together by His WORD and His Spirit. Otherwise, how can you test the accuracy of a message. Most good preachers say - check The Word and don't just take my word for it.

People believe what they want to believe - the Bible says within the word "heresy" - so no one can make them see otherwise. I didn't want to believe what I saw back then because I was pre-trib for 9 yrs at that time. I fought it even after seeing it with His Word alone.

I'm sorry I entered this thread. I should have known better. Lesson learned.

S

staff Feb 5, 2011

Hi again,
My query is genuine.Terminolgy like pre post does not come from the bible but from teachers.God gives gifts to the church and one is teaching.Listening to sermons is valid and I believe scriptural.
I do not have a pre tribulation view.When studying the bible I noticed this huge discrepancy in what I heard post tribulation people say about the end of the 7years.
They cant have it both ways either in my opinion, we go through the worst time in history and still at rapture time we find that people are still living a normal life and that time had no effect on them at all.sThe view that the great tribulation wont be that bad after all doesnt just make sense.
Why did Christ give the examples of Noah and Lot in the first place.
I honestly thought some one with a post trib view could explain this glaring problem with a time line or a scriptures.Staff

sermonindex Feb 5, 2011

Hi staff,

I wonder, could you answer this question? Have you ever lived in a primitive place, where there is no electricity, no flush toilets, no air conditioning, no drinking water in a tap, no tarred roads, no machinery involved in the farming?

Would you consider that - which is normal for some people - 'tribulation'?

S

staff Feb 5, 2011

Hi thanks for your post,
Jesus gave two examples Noah which had enough technology to build an Ark and Lot which Jesus said

27 They did eat , they drank , they married wives , they were given in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came , and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat , they drank , they bought , they sold , they planted , they builded ; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all
Sodom was a city primitive yeah and had none of the above you have mentioned.
But what I see when I look at both those examples is everything was as normal,it wasnt a time of unpheaval or distress.Also both examples clearly say that the very day Noah and Lot left their was Judgement.In fact the two angels rushed them along in Lots Case.
If I saw the Sun darkened etc Id be terrified much rather carrying on business as usual.I dont hold escapism.
I will thank God if he brings me through the tribulation and give glory that I was deemed worthy to suffer for his sake,but it has to be scriptural and logical.Staff

sermonindex Feb 5, 2011

With our eyes focused on Jesus, the things spoken by the prophets concerning the end of the age were only meant as a side note. They were not meant to be studied and made into teaching and doctrine.

They serve only as a thought. We keep it as an observation. Very much what Mary did when she seen and heard, she kept them in her heart as something to reflect back on.

Our place is not to study the Sun or the Moon or even the Stars. Our place is to study Christ. When anything that is contrary to the word of God rises up, we'll know! We don't need to study about Satan. If we have any love for the truth, when he speaks a lie, we'll know it.

Observe only, and let us follow Jesus Christ in the full capacity of the faith that has been given to us.

S

staff Feb 5, 2011

Hi,
I think that the word is meant to be studied and that through teaching and sound doctrine we are rewarded.
In this case Jesus who was not just a prophet delibrately gave us these two examples so we would know what it will be like at his coming.We must not believe in coincidence. Both examples show that at time of deliverence the world was going on about its business.
If we observe only and not teach the body will not be edified.If we love the truth we will study his word.The word is to be used for reproof as well as encouragement.Thanks Staff

sermonindex Feb 5, 2011

But what I see when I look at both those examples is everything was as normal,it wasnt a time of unpheaval or distress.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that most people get distressed by change. However, even if there are changes going on all around, those who are not being guided by God aren't going to notice the difference. They didn't take account of God before, and they don't take account of God after. In fact, it is amazing how easily people - perhaps even Christians (Matt 24:48 - 51) can fall into behaving like the world - are ruled by their natural passions.

Isaiah 56:12 2 Come ye, [say they], I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, [and] much more abundant.

Anything other is possible only to the faithful redeemed.

K

KingJimmy Feb 5, 2011

The Scenario is this,we have endured years of tribulation,the earth and its inhabitants are in a terrible state,the sun darkened,all of the nations mourning etc yet Jesus paints a picture of marrying,eating,drinking and of men being in the field working presumedly and women grinding.
How does that marry up?

Not all of the world is destroyed during this period. Indeed, as we see in the book of Revelation in regard to the city of Babylon, there is still a lot of every day life going on. Indeed, the merchants of the world are still carrying on and worrying about their trade and the products they sell, and finally "in one hour" judgment comes. Just because all of the world is in chaos doesn't mean everyday life isn't going on. If anything we learn from the Scriptures that man is still man, no matter what is going on in the world.

S

staff Feb 5, 2011

Hi Again thanks for your posts,
Why didnt Jesus say this:

When Noah entered into the Ark the flood came,and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot when Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

INSTEAD OF

27 They did eat , they drank , they married wives , they were given in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came , and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat , they drank , they bought , they sold , they planted , they builded ; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all

The reason was that he was highlighting two things,
1.That people were living and sinning as normal,they eat,drank ,married etc
2.The second thing is Jesus was highlighting the time judgement came(( until the day)) and (but on the same day)
It was immediate.No gap is what he is saying.Once Gods people are taken out,Judgement comes.

As to part of the world being ok and other parts not then whats all the fuss aboutIn any scripture I see regarding the great tribulation I dont see that.Everybody is having a hard time.If we take either of the world wars for instance.Is it as bad as them?
Also the regarding Babylon as far as I can see,it is gone by the end of the 7years and thats what we are talking about the end not the middle or start.But I could be wrong on that.It says the sun will be darkened,How will grass grow and animals live?The food chain would be disrupted if it was more than a few weeks.
Before I started this post I thought that post trib christians didnt think the Noah Lot examples were actually the rapture or ressurrection but now I see that they do think that and I am amazed.
I am still not sure of post trib time line though for the rapture,Is it exactly at the end of the 7 year period?
In my opinion their is a better arguement for a rapture at the end of the 7 years rather than before the 7 years but not using the Noah,Lot examples or the women at the mill ,
Thanks Staff

K

KingJimmy Feb 5, 2011

As to part of the world being ok and other parts not then whats all the fuss aboutIn any scripture I see regarding the great tribulation I dont see that

In Revelation, judgment is being poured out on the entire world. But clearly, not everybody suffers the same, and in differing degrees, for differing periods of times and such. You don't have seven years of total darkness or any such thing. In Revelation 18, the world while bad, still is engaging in every day life up until the final hour when it is overthrown. Everything hasn't come to a stand still. Life is still going on.

People are still getting married and doing everything else people normally do. After all, in spite of the great judgments, they don't believe the world is ending.