My soul

Brother John I love you man, Your honesty is a beautiful thing to see. May I ask a question that is quite elementary in nature but very important. Do you Love Christ Jesus?

Brother if you have a desire to Love Christ Jesus, He delights even in your weak Love no matter the amount. We get so frustrated with ourselves in regards to spiritual progress as if God's love grows and He answers prayers based on how much we pray or how much we Love Him.

He answers prayers based off of two things, His Will and His Love for Us. I do the very same thing though I get tired of being poor and so unlike Christ but I have lately made the attempt to focus not on my losses or even my victories but on the Saviour of All. When we get caught up in results we miss out on God's Love which is unconditional. We put conditions on our love because thats just how we work and operate. Its something we have to grow out of through maturity, don't hate your immaturity but delight in Christ and you will become mature in and through Him.

Let me ask you if you had a 1 year old and your goal was to see them to maturity, would you be upset at them if they didnt know how to read while they were so young? Would you yell at them for being so poorly matured they didn't know how to read? No, you probably wouldn't, you wouldn't even get frustrated with them because you know their limits and ability is still small. Now being a parent I have found that I delight in my children as they grow and mature, I don't focus on the fact they can't speak fluent english and get frustrated at them but I delight in their broken english the beautiful refrains of I lub you dada. Oh what JOY does the Father see in our weak Love, we may not be fluent in the spiritual language of Heaven or are as mature as we like but trust me the Father delights in You brother.

You will be frustrated but take heart GOD isn't frustrated with you but delights greatly in your spiritual progress no matter how small or large. God doesn't see a failure but sees the beauty of your heart with such great honesty. Keep that honesty protected and secure along with humility you have.

Two things jump out at me when I read your post bible4life.
1)You seem to base your faith or lack thereof on your FEELINGS. Quoting You: "I also understand that when his spirit is not working in you and you just FEEL dead as all can be within, you seek him like a mad man in prayer just to FEEL more hardened to him". You need to encourage yourself in the Lord when low feelings come your way by speaking words of faith and encouragement. Don't latch onto your feelings as if they are ultimate truth.
2)You seem to be trying to earn God's favor, love, blessing, etc. by works. This is absolute poisonous to your relationship with God. Seek to receive God's love by grace through faith. The following is from Jerry Bridge's book "Transforming Grace". I hope this helps.

For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, "You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right." So they went.

He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, "Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?"

"Because no one has hired us," they answered.

He said to them, "You also go and work in my vineyard."

When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, "Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first."

The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. "These men who were hired last worked only one hour," they said, "and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day."

But he answered one of them, "Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?"

So the last will be first, and the first will be last. (Matthew 20:1-16)
But Jesus was not teaching principles of labor relations. He was teaching principles of grace. He said, "The kingdom of heaven is like . . ." and proceeded to tell the parable. In effect, He said to Peter, "In the kingdom of heaven the operative principle is not merit but grace."

One group of people didn't think the landowner was unfair: the laborers who worked only one hour. Jesus didn't tell us their reaction, but we can easily assume they were elated and grateful. As the day had worn on, leaving them standing unemployed in the marketplace, their hope for any pay and hence any food for their families for the day had gradually eroded. At five o'clock in the afternoon they faced an evening with no supper. Finally they were given an opportunity to earn what they assumed would be a mere pittance, one-twelfth of a day's wages - not nearly enough to buy food for their families. It's not hard to imagine, then, their joy upon receiving a full day's wages, enough to feed their families that day. They didn't think about any unfairness on the part of the landowner; they considered him very generous.
AN ATTITUDE OF DESERVING

Why do so many people stumble over this parable and consider the landowner to be unfair? I believe it is because we Christians instinctively identify with the workers who had worked all day. We place ourselves in their shoes instead of in the shoes of those who worked only one hour. We look at society around us, instead of at Jesus Christ, and we begin to feel pretty good about ourselves. We consider ourselves to be twelve-hour workers, and we expect to be rewarded accordingly.

That is the way Peter felt and that is the way many people feel today. I was talking one day with a man whose mother, a faithful servant of God for over forty years, was dying of painful cancer. He said, "After all she's done for God, this is the thanks she gets." Such a statement sounds irreverent to us, but the man didn't intend it to be that way. He simply thought God owed his mother a better life. He only verbalized what many people feel in their hearts.

There are other occasions when we remind God of the sacrifices we have made to serve Him. "Lord, I've done this sacrificial service for You, and now I'm in need of this special answer to prayer." When we assume such an attitude, we are putting ourselves in the position of the twelve-hour workers. We suggest to God that we deserve this answer to prayer because of our sacrificial service. With such an attitude we may grumble about blessings not received instead of being grateful for those we have received.

We need to adopt the attitude of the Roman centurion described in Luke 7. The man sent some of the Jewish elders to Jesus asking Him to come and heal his sick servant. When the elders came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with Him: "This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue" (verses 4-5). Notice the Jewish elders' emphasis on deserving.

The centurion surely was a remarkable man. He was an officer in the Roman occupation army, yet he served the occupied people by building a synagogue for them. Think of an occupying army in today's culture and ask yourself how many "enemy" officers would do such a thing.

But the centurion's attitude about himself is even more remarkable than his deeds. Instead of thinking of what he should receive because of what he deserved, he freely confessed he didn't deserve anything. He sent word to Jesus, saying, "I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you" (verses 6-7). The centurion placed himself in the shoes of the eleventh-hour workers. Because of this he not only experienced the joy of having his request granted, but also the added joy of knowing he had received what he did not deserve. He experienced the joy of knowing he had received a gift not a repayment of a debt.
WE CAN NEVER OBLIGATE GOD

We can never obligate God by our obedience or our sacrificial service. Even if we were perfectly obedient in all our Christian duties, we would still be forced to say, "We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty" (Luke 17:10).

Suppose you perfectly obey all the traffic laws of your state. You always stay within the speed limit, always come to a complete stop at stop signs, always drive in the proper lane, always use your turn signals always obey every traffic rule. Do you receive any reward? Not at all, that is what you are supposed to do. You have only done your duty. You do not, by perfect obedience of the traffic laws, obligate the state to reward you in any manner. All you can say is, "I have only done my duty."

As the Sovereign Ruler of the universe, God has the right to require perfect obedience and faithful service from all of us without in the least obligating Himself. We owe Him such obedience and service. If we were to perfectly obey every command God has given and faithfully perform every duty - which, of course, we never do - we still could only say, "I have merely done my duty." We cannot obligate God in any way.

God Himself asserted His freedom from any obligation when He said to Job, "Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me" (Job 41:11). God was not stating a mere abstract, theological principle. He was rebuking an attitude of "I'm not getting what I deserve," on Job's part. Job, in defending himself against the false accusations of his so-called friends, had fallen from an attitude of grace into thinking he deserved better treatment from God. He had fallen from an attitude of "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised," into an attitude of "It profits a man nothing when he tries to please God" (Job 1:21; 34:9).

Job had, over the time of his suffering, shifted from the position of an eleventh-hour worker to one who felt he had indeed "borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day" (Matthew 20:12). And God directly addressed Job's attitude. If God were to deal with us today as He did with Job, I wonder how many of us would receive a similar rebuke?

Through the inspired pen of the apostle Paul, the Holy Spirit again asserts His freedom from obligation to anyone when He says, "Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?" (Romans 11:35). This assertion was not made in a vacuum. Paul had been dealing with the difficult question of the Jews' future in the face of God's apparent spurning of them in favor of the Gentiles. Regardless of how we understand Paul's teaching about the Jews in Romans 9-11 (an issue on which many Christians disagree), the principle stated by the Holy Spirit through Paul is crystal clear: God does not owe anyone anything.

There is a very high sense of entitlement within modern society. Older people feel entitled to certain benefits from the government. Middle-aged people feel entitled to generous health and retirement benefits from their employers. Younger adults feel entitled to immediately enjoy the same standard of living their parents took years to achieve. And young people feel entitled to whatever material luxuries they desire.

Many observers of our culture are quite concerned about this pervasive sense of "rights" and expectations within our society as a whole. But for Christians, such a high sense of entitlement is especially detrimental to our spiritual lives. For one thing, God is the ultimate supplier of all our needs and desires. Every good gift is from Him, regardless of the intermediate means through which that gift is supplied. As James said, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" (James 1:17). However, God, through His providential workings, almost always uses some person or institution or other human instrumentality to meet our needs. Ultimately, though, He is the One who provides or withholds what we desire or think we need.

Therefore, a high sense of entitlement and expectations, though seemingly directed toward some person or institution, is actually directed toward God and His providential dealings in our lives. If we do not receive what we think we have a right to expect, it is ultimately God who has withheld.

More importantly, our sense of entitlement, which may be originally directed toward other people or institutions, is almost invariably transferred directly to God. We begin to be as demanding of our "rights" before God as we are toward people. It is bad enough, and certainly not very Christian, to have the attitude "The world owes me something just because I am," but to have the attitude that God owes me something is exceedingly dangerous to spiritual health. It will ruin our relationship with God, nullify our effectiveness in ministry, and perhaps turn us bitter or resentful. Unlike our government, or school, or family, or employer, God will not "give in" to our sense of rights or respond to pressure tactics. We never win the battle of "rights" with God. He cares too much about our spiritual growth to let that happen.

Praying that God will supernaturally deliver you from your pit.

He drew me up from the pit of destruction, out of the miry bog, and set my feet upon a rock, making my steps secure.

Our God is able to deliver and will deliver.I know because He delivered me from the pit of destruction.

A bruised reed He will not break and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish.

He hears your cries and will establish your way.

To my understanding Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit. So what then is our responsibility, the same as its always been submission to God and Reliance on God.

Confession and Repentance aren't works to my understanding of them, Confession is agreeing with God's word and Repentance is simply lining up with that confession mentally and spiritually.

I do know what you mean by people placing burdens on people using these two thuings. I view the Christian life through a metaphor of an apple tree, A farmer plants a seed. The farmer waters it and takes care of it, Does the seed do any work to grow? No it naturally grows into a tree. Then as the tree matures it will naturally grow apples, its not a chore or a great work, it just happens. Now fruit trees do require pruning and watering at times and that is where the Farmer will come in and take care of the tree, But the tree doesn't prune or water itself like it naturally grows apples.

We are the same way God does all the real work in us everything else will just come naturally because the Seed of Christ is in us and grows.

I was on facebook and their was a talk on positional sanctification and sanctification in a believer.

bible4life, This is an article I found helpful that addresses " Positional Sanctification ". The character "Hank" represents some one who believes in " Positinal Sanctification"

I hope this will help you understand the error of such teaching.

"Much to the dismay of those who try to make themselves a license for sin, the Bible says that we are to be practically righteous, not practically sinners.
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." 1 John 3:7-9

Our true character is shown by our conduct. If it was true that we could continue to live as sinners and still be classified as righteous, John could not make this distinction. True conversion not only is intelligent but dramatically effects' our lifestyle.

The word translated right is the same root word as righteous and is the same righteousness imputed to believers in Romans three and four, real practical righteousness. Some will insist that the gospel makes no provision for making us righteous, but as we see in this passage there is a clear connection. A connection that insists that one is useless without the other.

Some ministers will go so far as to leave you with the impression that the only practical difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is a set of purely intellectual or emotional issues. This is a grave error. The scripture is plain: your conduct reveals whether you're righteous or of the devil. I'm not saying you have to work to receive Christ's righteousness. I am saying that someone who has received Christ's righteousness will live as a child of the light and bear the fruit of righteousness. Though all of us can still sin, the standard we should measure ourselves against is righteousness.

Redemption
The Bible teaches that;

"Christ gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people zealous for good works" (Titus 2:14).

In the theology Hank holds to, Christ's righteousness is not imputed to us in a way that would purify us from all wickedness.

Rather in Hanks view we can keep much wickedness in our lives, only now God is blind to it. Therefore we can continue living the life of a sinner while being viewed as righteous.

Hank told me that:

"We are positionally accounted as righteous before God because we have transferred to our account all of the righteousness of Christ, so when God looks at us he doesn't see us in the context of our sin, but he sees us in the context of the righteousness of Christ. But practically we still sin and we will till the day we die."(2)

This is truly prostituting the bible, 1 John 3:7-9 would have to be mutilated to fit in with this theology. Wouldn't the Devil laugh to read-He who lives sinfully is righteous even as he is righteous? He who is sinful is practically of the devil, but God cannot see that and sees you as righteous, if you believe Hank's theology, the whole idea is revolting.

Spiritual Healing
Despite Hanegraaff insisting that we can not be practically righteous, he himself frequently explains one of the reasons why we can and should be practically righteous, while being blind to the implications. Hank has pointed out that the Faith teachers have banked on Isaiah 53:5 as a guarantee of physical healing. In his reply to this he has on several occasions pointed out that the healing referred to in this verse is spiritual rather then physical. In the context of pointing this out he often quotes 1 Peter 2:24-25. The truth is Christ has provided for our spiritual healing so we might "die to sin and live to righteousness".

"Isaiah 53:5 say's by his stripes we are healed so the question is what does it mean to say that I am Healed? What does the word rapha actually mean, and the word rapha actually means that we are healed not physically of necessity but spiritually. You determine the meaning of rapha in this context by what the broader context of what Isaiah is trying to say really is, right. and if you look at the context, in the broader context you find out what is being talked about is spiritual healing. What are we being healed of? Well were being healed of transgressions and Iniquities . . . You can take this beyond Isaiah 53 you can take this to 1 Peter 2:24-25 Because really you have peter rephrasing what Isaiah said. Peter said 'he himself bore our sins on his body so that we might die to sin but live to righteousness, by his wounds we have been healed. You were like sheep that had gone astray, but you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls'. Now Peter's theme is absolutely crystal clear, Christ bore our sin's not our sicknesses." (3)

Hank made the same point in his book.(4) The point I am trying to make is this. Some people seem to be teaching Christ bore our sin's so that we could live in sin (practically sinners ) but be considered righteous. This is not the word of God. The bible teaches he bore our sins so we could die to sin and live to righteousness. It amazes me that Hank could quote this verse and yet so often teach the opposite. This is how we should live.

"For you were once darkness but now you are light in the Lord Live as children of light for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness righteousness and truth . . . have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness rather expose them." Ephesians 5 8-12

Instruments of Righteousness
Beyond a doubt the word righteous does imply a title or position, but it is only applicable as related to practice. IE a ruler rules one who does not is not really a ruler. I am not at odds with the statement that we are positionally righteous; I believe it, but we should also be practically righteous. We are told to offer ourselves to God as "Instruments of righteousness" in Rom. 6:13. If someone says they're born again, and have received Christ's righteousness, he should bear the fruit of a practical righteousness. This is clearly the result of a true work of Christ in the heart. This righteousness was received when we turned from sin and put our faith in Christ.

We received justification through eternal redemption (being set free from sin) Romans 3:24. We entered the new covenant:

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time say's the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Hebrews 10:16

While Calvin seemed to of felt content promoting a justification that would remove consequences while only partially changing the heart God is not. While the blood of goats and bulls only dealt with the external, the blood of Christ does much more.

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God" Hebrews 9:13-14.

The Scripture makes it clear that, while the old covenant only made provision for outward cleansing, the new covenant in Christ has provided for inward cleansing, that we might live for God.

Did Christ Die in our Place, or Obey in our Place? (See also Justification)

When the Bible speaks about the gospel, Christ's vicarious atonement and redemption are central; in contrast, when Hank speaks about the gospel, the main emphasis is on what he considers Christ's substitutionary obedience.

"He lived the perfect life in our place which we could never live, and he offers it to you (Mark) as an absolutely free gift"(5)

This sounds very nice, but as we examine this idea, you can see the wolf under the sheep's clothing. We both agree that Christ's death was vicarious; but his life is imparted - not substituted - in the sense that he understands it (Rom 8:11). To quote Finney:

"The idea is absurd and impossible for this reason: Jesus Christ was bound to obey the Law for himself. It was his duty to love the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength and to love his neighbor as himself. If he had not done so, it would have been sin.

Although Christ owed perfect obedience to the Law himself, and could not therefore obey as our substitute, yet since he perfectly obeyed, he owed no suffering to the Law or to the Divine Government on his own account. He could therefore suffer for us. This is the true basis for the Gospel - not that Christ obeyed for us, but that he died for us. He took the punishment we deserved.

The doctrine of imputed righteousness represents God as requiring:

A) That Christ should render perfect obedience for us

B) That he should die just as if no such obedience had been rendered.

C) That we should repent and obey

Does God exact triple service?"(6)

Why would someone invent such a philosophy as this? The Bible does represent righteousness as being imputed to us, but those who hold to this doctrine seem to want righteousness without redemption. It seems that they have devised an understanding of imputed righteousness that eliminates the need for true repentance. Perhaps this relieves them from a sense of obligation; perhaps this allows them to continue in sin without a deep sense that this is offensive to God. Whatever the reason, in their understanding obedience can be looked at with fondness as a nice ideal, while at the same time be rejected as unnecessary.

It is foolish to say that he obeyed in our place for him to do that he would have to live in our place. This would not make us practically righteous it would make us practically nonexistent, I hope you are getting the picture. The basis for this misunderstanding lies in a principle of responsibility.

If a man named John sent flowers to his wife, though another delivers them he gets the credit, because he is the agent responsible for the act. If John sends an assassin to kill his wife, both have guilt. In this case John may not have pulled the trigger but he is responsible for the murder because he initiated it. In the first case the delivery driver acted (obeyed) in his place, In the second case the assassin obeyed in his place. A more biblical example is found when we consider how David arranged for Uriahs death. This principle is at the basis for Hank's belief that Christ obeyed (Lived his life) in our place. The principle is valid, but only for the person who appointed the act. In the case of our Lord it was the Father who appointed him;

"I have come down from Heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me" (John 8:38).

In the sense above mentioned the Son acted in his Fathers place. Both roles portray pure virtue, and not one of us can take credit for what they have done. Do I need add more? It is plain that Jesus did not do our will he did the Fathers.

"Our own righteousness, we confess, is "filthy rags," and Jesus said, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter Into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20). We must have the inwrought righteousness of Christ. Not a robe simply, that covers our unrighteousness, leaving us sinful and unholy, but His righteousness imparted to us. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9). If all unrighteousness is cleansed away, then certainly there is righteousness in its place. If the atonement of Christ cannot get down as deep as sin has gone, it must be a failure. But who would say that Christ made a failure in His atonement?" (7)

Part II Part III

stopsinning.net

I just have to say that I agree with Hank's theology here and disagree with idea of salvation by sanctification being promoted by Finney and others. God's grace is not a license to purposefully practice a lifestyle of sin. But even sincere and conscientious Christians will sin from time to time every day and God's grace which we have in the gospel will impute or credit to our account the righteousness of Christ. This is what salvation by faith is all about. To reject this is to go back to Old Testament legalism: salvation by works. If you reject Christ's righteousness being imputed to us, then you must be trusting in your own righteousness. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus said "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter Into the kingdom of heaven." The only way we can meet this requirement is by receiving the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. I repeat for emphasis: we do not abuse the grace of God in order to live sinful lifestyles and those who do so will be told, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I just this terrible feeling that the end times are here and the rapture might be coming soon and that here is me getting worse and hopeless.

I think sometimes I come to this forum with a prayer request thinking your prayers our going to change me, maybe that is a fault of mine. A few times I cried out to God with all my heart to God and he answered me. Can someone please give me wisdom here or something...

A. few. times. I. cried. out. to. God. with. ALL. MY. HEART. and. he. answered. me.

Repentance is a lifestyle. When you make a mistake ask God to forgive you and then GO ON! You are no good to God in this state that you are in.

Now, when you do sin, when you repent ASK your Father in Heaven to reveal to you why you do what you do. And keep asking Him. Seek Him with all your heart and wait for an answer and if you mess up while you are waiting, start all over again and ask Him to reveal to you why you do what you do.

Brother, God doesn't hate you for messing up; He is not like people. He does want you to go to Him and not be like Adam hiding in the bushes from the shame.

Be honest with God about everything, every little or big sin. He cannot work with you if you (or I) keep lying to Him about it; by that I mean giving excuses or blaming other people or things about why it happened. We sin because we want to sin, period. So be honest with Him.

God bless you brother, I expect to hear wonderful things in the coming months about your relationship with God! He has high hopes for you and so do the rest of us!

Sister Lisa

My heart aches to hear your anguish. Others who are more eloquent than I have commented much to your condition, and given wise words of advice. I do not have advice, but I will continue in prayer for you. I have personally been through similar struggles as you mention with 2 of my own children. I talk and talk and pray and pray and give verse upon verse, but no change - over many months, perhaps even a couple years. All I know to say to that is that yes, God requires us to come IN FAITH, and AS LITTLE CHILDREN, but still it is a work of God in the human heart, and in HIS time, not ours. Don't ever feel you are a burden to us. One human soul is worth everything. I will be praying that God will meet you right where you are. HE LOVES YOU!!!

with 2 of my own children

I wanted to add that my children are grown, and that their struggling was in their early 20's. This was adult struggling.

come IN FAITH, and AS LITTLE CHILDREN

I just wanted to clarify again as I hope I didn't come across as talking down to you.....I just meant that the most lofty, or intellectual among us cannot "get to God".....I was only trying to say that in all your struggling, it is that utter innocence and helplessness of a child that is able to come to God.

I am finding it difficult to express myself on this forum in a way that is clear. I find that I am getting myself in trouble, when my heart intends only good. Anyway, I am praying, and will continue.

No - I hadn't seen it - I am humbled.....that's just the way it is to me. I don't know what to say....I don't have eloquence - it is just my heart...Thank you so much for your kind words....