Workers Of Iniquity

I hope to start a discussion of Psalm 5:5. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.I am trying to square the current trend of preaching God's love with what scripture says about who and what God hates. I hope we can make an accurate biblical contrast that will bring justice again to the full counsel of God in this matter. Few things are more important to our presentation of the Gospel than our understanding of this. Some opening commentary:Thou hatest all workers of iniquity Some sin now and then, others generally; some constantly, and some labour in it with all their might. These are the WORKERS of iniquity. Such even the God of infinite love and mercy hates. Alas! what a portion have the workers of iniquity! the hatred of God Almighty! (Adam Clarke)God is a prayer-hearing God. Such he has always been, and he is still as ready to hear prayer as ever. The most encouraging principle of prayer, and the most powerful plea in prayer, is, to look upon him as our King and our God. David also prays to a sin-hating God. sin is folly, and sinners are the greatest of all fools; fools of their own making. Wicked people hate God; justly are they hated of him, and this will be their endless misery and ruin. Let us learn the importance of truth and sincerity, in all the affairs of life. Liars and murderers resemble the devil, and are his children, therefore it may well be expected that God should abhor them. These were the characters of David's enemies; and such as these are still the enemies of Christ and his people. (Matthew Henry Concise)Let those therefore who delight in sin know that God has no delight in them... (MH fragment)"Those whom thou hatest thou shalt destroy;" particularly two sorts of sinners, who are here marked for destruction:-- [1.] Those that are fools, that speak leasing or lying, and that are deceitful. There is a particular emphasis laid on these sinners (Revelation 21:8), All liars, and (Psalms 22:15), Whosoever loves and makes a lie; nothing is more contrary than this, and therefore nothing more hateful to the God of truth. [2.] Those that are cruel: Thou wilt abhor the bloody man; for inhumanity is no less contrary, no less hateful, to the God of mercy, whom mercy pleases. Liars and murderers are in a particular manner said to resemble the devil and to be his children, and therefore it may well be expected that God should abhor them. These were the characters of David's enemies; and such as these are still the enemies of Christ and his church, men perfectly lost to all virtue and honour; and the worse they are the surer we may be of their ruin in due time.It is a stanza that will not find itself in any modern hymns, long or short that I am aware of. Yet, this Psalm was no doubt sang as a reminder of God's position on sin and impenitent sinners.Let the search for truth begin and may we prayerfully search out the fullness of the plurality of God's greatness and majesty that we may draw near to a right representation and presentation of Him in every situation and to every people.

Brother Robert ... No reflection on you, but when i first read your thread the first thing that popped up in my head was, "I hate that we saints do so much dissection of the Word, but not much doing" ... 2Tim.3[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.Jas.1[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:[24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.You quoted'"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity".i guess it's ok for God Himself to hate the workers of iniquity, even tho i don't think His hatred of them is out of angry emotion as debased as our own fallen human nature ... i know that God is love, and so i think His hatred of the workers of iniquity is based out of the pain He feels that they choose to be vessels of His wrath, instead of vessels of His mercy, because it pains Him that any of us should choose to be relegated to an existence of eternal fiery torment in Hell ... But i'm very well aware as a Christian that i don't have the option of hating the sinner, but only the sin that the workers of iniquity commit, for i was once one of them, and even tho now saved my own self righteousness is STILL as but filthy rags, as it is only my being drenched in the righteousness of Christ that justifies me, and frees me from self or satan's continued condemnation of me, because by faith i now that there is no condemnation is Christ ... So i thank God for Jesus, ask the Holy Ghost to ever keep me mindful and empowered to witness, pray for and love the sinner, all the while hating and rebuking the sin which we all know boils down to satan, which is why we're told in Ephesians that our battle is not against the sinner, but the force behind sin ... If we saints of God could ever get to getting our eyes off of "flesh and blood" as the objects of our hatred, and on to "powers, principalities and spiritual wickedness in high and low places" we could turn this world upside down! ... That's why i pray for Revival so much, for the Church of Christ is in difinite need of His eyesalve to open up our vision into the spiritual realm, as we're obviously blinded by the natural ... i'm sorry to run on so, but Christ is definitely doing a new work in me and it just comes out ...Below is something i ran across on the web ...THE CHRISTIAN’S HATE LIFEby Dr. Jack HylesPastor, First Baptist Church, Hammond, Indiana What should the Christian hate? He should hate what God hates.1. He should hate quitting ...Psalm 101:3, “I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.”2. He should hate every false way ... Psalm 119:104, “Through Thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.” When someone says a person can go to Heaven by good works, the Christian should hate it. Now he should not hate the person who says it but he should hate the false way. When someone says that one can go to Heaven by taking of the sacraments, joining the church, or getting baptized, the Christian should find hatred swelling in his heart for the false way. There is no way to love God’s way to Heaven without hating Satan’s false ways to Heaven.3. He should hate empty ritual ...Amos 5:21, “I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.”4. He should hate an evil heart against his neighbors ...Zechariah 8:17, “And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord.”5. He should hate lying ... Psalm 119:163, “I hate and abhor lying: but Thy law doI love.”6. He should hate idolatry ...Jeremiah 44:4,5, “Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their hearts to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense to other gods.”7. He should hate vain thoughts ... Psalm 119:113, “I hate vain thoughts but thy law do I love.” 8. He should hate a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood ...Proverbs 6:16-19, “These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him: - a proud look, - a lying tongue, - and hands that shed innocent blood, - an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, - feet that be swift in running to mischief, - a false witness that speaketh lies, - and he that soweth discord among the brethren. 9. He should hate the narcotics which is ruining our young people. 10 . He should hate the liquor which destroys so many lives and homes.11. He should hate communism which is dedicated to the destruction of our Christian society. 12. He should hate the atheism and humanism that is pervading our college campuses. 13. He should hate the nudity that is destroying our morals. 14. He should hate the permissiveness which is ruining our youth. 15. He should hate the adult bookstores, the sensitivity parlors, the dirty movie industry.16. He should especially hate the sin of his own life that causes he and God so much heartache. Yes, the Christian does have a hate life ... because God does! (end) ....May all we saints of God allow the Holy Spirit a continual and constant examination of ourselves to a conviction of hate for sin period! ... beginning with our own lives first ... Amen

Hi Bro. Rahman,I am hoping to come to terms with our presentation of the Gospel as it pertains to communicating with the unrepentant. So often we hear, "God loves you, God loves you, etc." and yet the person trodds that love under foot and goes away (apparently) thinking they are in no real danger because, after all, "God loves me." The writers of old were willing to admit that there were such sinners that God hated (as we see with both Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry); yet in our day, such a statement almost seems blasphemous. What has happened and what is the truth about how God feels about impenitent sinners? God Bless,-Robert

Brother Robert you wrote;"The writers of old were willing to admit that there were such sinners that God hated (as we see with both Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry); yet in our day, such a statement almost seems blasphemous. What has happened and what is the truth about how God feels about impenitent sinners"?What has happened? ... The way i see it is, "Ear tickling from the pulpit to the laity in trade for the laity's mammon back to the pulpit" ... In my own church circle an emphasis on what was once concidered hell fire preaching is shunned, and replaced by an emphasis on "sweet Jesus", "Jesus Claus", and "Christ Genie" ... The emphasis now is on the giving Christ, instead of what the sinner/saint has to give up ... Such saints concieved in such one sided preaching produces weak, always needy, weepy tossed to and fro, retarded Christians ... Read all of the OT prophets and they'll show us all the results of what happens when anyone hasn't the proper fear of God ... When i witness to an unsaved one first i tell them a Genesis synopsis of the why we need salvation, and God's how to attain it from this scripture .....John.3[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.Then what such a true repentance will free us from in our submitting to Christ ...Eph.2[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:Eph.5[1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.1Cor.6[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.Then what our rejection of Christ condemns us to, namely God's wrath ...John.3[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Then the actual eternal sentence one must serve if he dies in his unrepentance ... Rev.20[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Rev.21[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.After which point i've had many say, "You're trying to scare me"! ... At which point i acknowledge,"Duhhhhhh ... do you think"! ... with this scripture ...Prov.1[7] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.Then i just point blank let em know that without a pure, true and Spirit led repentance to, and acknowledgment of Christ as their only means of salvation, they're staring in the face an eternity in hell where the flame is ever constant, and the worm dieth not, to contemplate their foolishness ...Well brother Robert in so many cases today an individual witness in this manner to the unsaved is frowned upon, let alone being fired from a pulpit with any relevant constancy ... It's just not popular with the masses ... God draws men by the fishermans hook of Jesus Christ, but He cares, gets and keeps us in line by the Shepherd's crook of Jesus Christ ... i think too many preachers today are lopsided with the saving grace hook of Christ, while neglecting His crook, and it shows in the ineffectiveness of His Church ... God help us ... and I know He will ... Amen

The writers of old were willing to admit that there were such sinners that God hated (as we see with both Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry); yet in our day, such a statement almost seems blasphemous. What has happened and what is the truth about how God feels about impenitent sinners?This is an important topic. I believe that in order for impenitent sinners to fully understand their condition they need to see how God reacts to sin. Verses like Psalm 5:5 and Romans 1:18 are useful in presenting His reaction to sin;For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Romans 1:18)A problem comes when fallen human minds have a hard time understanding words like 'hate' and 'wrath' as having to do with anything other than some emotional outburst of rage. We need to make it clear that, as a compass points to the north, so God's settled reaction to sin is the outpouring and unfolding of His wrath. He doesn't look upon sin, He doesn't wink at sin, he can't abide sin. Until an impenitent sinner understands this he is in a most perilous place. I believe this is an important part of using the law in bringing an awareness of sin, righteousness, and judgment. As Allistar Begg has put it, you have to lay down the black velvet of the law before you bring out the diamond of grace through Jesus Christ. Too many people are walking around showing off diamonds without ever laying down the velvet.In Christ,Ron

Wow brother Ron this is good ..."I believe this is an important part of using the law in bringing an awareness of sin, righteousness, and judgment. As Allistar Begg has put it, you have to lay down the black velvet of the law before you bring out the diamond of grace through Jesus Christ. Too many people are walking around showing off diamonds without ever laying down the velvet".... although i've never thought of the Law as velvet ... The Law (to me) puts me to mind of the burlap potato sack underwear my mom told me that she and her siblings had to wear during/after the Great Depression ... most uncomfortable ... But man are you right, sinners are being made to feel comfortable via grace before being made uncomfortable by an understanding of the condemnation of the Law, therefore no real appreciation for the Means, Giver and consequences of grace ... Thanks!

We need to make it clear that, as a compass points to the north, so God's settled reaction to sin is the outpouring and unfolding of His wrath. It is a most difficult topic I know. I have often felt that the wrath was generated from the betrayal of the great love that He has for His creation. For example, let a person find their spouse in a compromising way and love can change to wrath quickly. I think it is interesting to note that Jesus wept over Jerusalem (a city) and John 3:16 reads "For God so loved the world..." World is the Greek word Kosmos. When we read in Proverbs of the 7 things God's hates there are hands, feet, etc. mentioned; but what is the extent of the hatred there. Does it extend only to the offending member or the one who was yielding their members as instruments of unrighteousness? My desire is not to try to prove that God hates anyone; but we have to account for Esau and these afore mentioned passages in our understanding of God's love. As it stands these passages are anomolies to our theologies that don't get dealt with. We need to know biblically how God is perceiving the sinful world in which we live in terms of individuals. Good news makes no sense without the backdrop of a bad situation. Yet, when we declare God's wrath we offset it with his love to the very same sinner. :-? We tell a man the law has declared Him guilty before God and he is in danger of Hell fire and then tell him God loves him unconditionally. Then we wonder why the person is content to keep on sinning.

Brother Robert,i think i've jumped to quick regarding my statement about dissecting the Word, for brother Ron's statement has answered a question for me that had puzzled me for some time ... A while back my church sponsored a "Home Buyers" seminar in our annex bldg (which we older saints treat with the same respect as the sanctuary) ... In the midst of a class one young Christian woman answered a question in which she unabashedly volunteered that she lived with her boyfriend ... i was amazed that she'd said such a thing without the slightest hint of conviction ... Then another young sister uttered a phrase out of her mouth making use of street terminology regarding male & female sexual anotomy, that had to be addressed by one of the ministers in the class, but even so she still couldn't see that no such talk should come forth out of a child of God's mouth, because she said she was just keeping it real ... Then there's the puzzle of how so many young saints can identify themselves as Hip Hop Christians, and it's all because they've not been made to understand their sinful condition prior to, or in conjunction with their being told about the saving grace of Christ ... They in essence don't know any better, which is why they don't even try to hide such sin ... It's all ok, Christ understands is all they initially heard, and all they're still hearing now, except by the likes of such saints appalled by such ignorance in Christ, who get labled legalist sticks in the mud... We really, really do needs God help, and like Joel states it's got to start in the pulpit first, or we'll never have solemn assemblies ... Please God, convict your annointed, that You may convict us all by their mouths ... Amen

I believe this is an important part of using the law in bringing an awareness of sin, righteousness, and judgment. As Allistar Begg has put it, you have to lay down the black velvet of the law before you bring out the diamond of grace through Jesus Christ. Too many people are walking around showing off diamonds without ever laying down the velvet.Hi RonI think we have touched on this before and I find myself thinking the same thoughts. I know that all the greats have said 'don't preach grace until you have preached law' but is there really a biblical basis for this methodology?I have frequently scoured the Acts to see what gospel they preached and it seems so different from what we usually hear. A liberal English theologian (C.H.Dodd) differentiated between what he called kerugma and didache. Kerugma is the herald’s proclamation and didache is the deposit of truth trusted to the church. I don’t recommend Dodd but this is an important distinction. The kerugma was the content of the herald’s message, while the didache was the content of the deposit trusted to the Church.In the New Testament we seem to see several different styles of ‘meeting’. 1. The public proclamation in the market place as in Acts 17 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. (Act 17:22 KJV) The word ‘said’ means ‘to reveal one’s thoughts’. You might almost translate it ‘expressed himself’.2. The formal meeting for ‘seekers’ in a public hall. Acts 19:9 The verb used of Paul’s actions here is dialegomai, the word that we get ‘dialogue’ from. It means to reason, to talk-through literally. This is a reasoned statement of truth and is frequently used of Paul’s work. ( Acts 17:2; 17:17; 18:4; 18:19; 19:8; 19:9; 20:7; 20:9; 24:12; 24:25;) That all-nighter ‘sermon’ in Troas was a ‘dialogue’. . ‘dialegomai’ is also used to describe Paul’s work in the synagogue. 3. Then there is the kind of meeting described in 1 Corinthians, which is not our topic I think.So I think Paul’s ‘gospel preaching’ is to be found in two places. There is the ‘reasoning’ place, synagogue or public hall, where Paul is at work to convince by reasoned application. (obviously dependent upon the Spirit). Then there is the New Testament equivalent of ‘street preaching’ although the scene at Athens was in a setting where it was customary for people to listen to ‘orators’. There fellowship was ‘house to house’ but their evangelism was not. I’m not trying to say our patterns must be absolutely the same as theirs; I’m just trying to work out what was happening.I think much of our church preaching is probably most similar to Paul in the synagogue. The audience was attentive if not always sympathetic. In this context we almost call Paul’s style ‘expositional’ but with definite ‘heraldic’ elements. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? (Act 9:20-21 KJV) ‘preached’ here us kErussO- proclaimed) He was plainly taking familiar OT scriptures and expounding them to demonstrate the authenticity of Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ. But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. (Act 9:22 KJV)As far as I am aware there is no indication that Paul ever spoke to his Jewish synagogue listeners about their personal sin. He was ‘preaching Christ’. I get the same impression from his ‘heraldic preaching’ in Athens. He preaches the certainly of judgment and hence accountability but again no reference to personal sin and certainly no reference, to these Gentiles, of a broken law. If Paul’s ‘kerugma’ (the content of the herald’s proclamation) in Athens is any kind of indication they were ordered to ‘repent now’ of their idolatry and warned of inevitable day of judgment but again not a word about personal sins.I can understand the logic of the ‘great preachers’ who say ‘no grace before law’ but I struggle to find a scriptural justification for it. Can anyone help me?

Here is my question.I have heard many say, "God does not hate the sinner, he hates the sin!" But is that true?Psalm 5:5 does not say "You hate all the iniquities of the evildoers." It plainly says "You hate all workers of iniquity."The focus of the hating is obviously on the worker of iniquity, the person. I know this shouldn't change OUR attitude of love towards those whom have gone astray as we once had, but surely we do not want to give anyone a false impression of what it is that God hates and loves.Has anyone had to correct this misunderstanding either in the "church" or with the lost? How was it approached?

Brother Ron you wrote;"I can understand the logic of the ‘great preachers’ who say ‘no grace before law’ but I struggle to find a scriptural justification for it. Can anyone help me"?i ask this in all sincerity, "Then how about a dispensational justification for it via" ...2Tim.3[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.i don't know about England (although i know she ain't what she used to be with Jesus either), but over here in the U.S. ignorance, apathy and anestesization to sin is so amazingly apparent that i think it must be called out, for folk over here, even in some churches, seem so amazingly numb to it ... As i've stated i go to a rather large, affluent church that looks pretty good from the outside, but is found wanting on the inside, and not many have the boldness to speak up about it, and most find themselves in the minority that do ...Why is it anathema to speak up about sin, conviction, repentance and hell anymore? ... What is the history of what the Holy Ghost was preaching during the great Revivals of old? ... If ALL scripture is inspired of God, inclusive of that that tells us ALL we're hell bound without Christ, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, then why should we shun those that point out our sin(s)? ... Feels like a trick of the enemy to me.

Hi Bro. Ron,I can understand the logic of the ‘great preachers’ who say ‘no grace before law’ but I struggle to find a scriptural justification for it. Can anyone help me?When Stephen was preaching he was directing their attention to their personal sin of always resisting the Holy Ghost and their continuance in a policy of killing the prophets who fortold the coming of the Messiah and then killing the messiah Himself. (Acts 7:51-53) That was their great sin and none could be greater. The blood of righteous Abel down through Christ and on to James who was beaten to death with a fuller's club, was heaped on their heads. This was not just preaching about the commandment of murder, but it carried with it the implication of breaking other commandments such as blasphemy of God's name.Paul also confronted idolatry, the 1st and second commandment; Being therefore the offspring of God, we ought not to think that which is divine to be like gold or silver or stone, the graven form of man's art and imagination. (Acts 17:29 Darby). He went on to tell them; And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30 KJV)Many circumstances that we can see a bit what was happening in practice. Certainly Romans opens up with a strong rebuke against the transgressors of the unwritten laws of conscience and creation. This applied directly to the Gentiles. Everyone knows they are guilty of transgressing their conscience and trying to ignore God (they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, etc.). This approach is the method for those not knowing the law. It can be proven to the people that they loved darkness rather than light, etc.God Bless,-Robert

Has anyone had to correct this misunderstanding either in the "church" or with the lost? How was it approached?Hi Couch,Hopefully we can shed some light on the subject and deal with it from here. It has not been discussed in my circles. God Bless,-Robert

I can understand the logic of the ‘great preachers’ who say ‘no grace before law’ but I struggle to find a scriptural justification for it. Can anyone help me?I think the following may be helpful;But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners...(1 Timothy 1:8-9)As you know this verse tells us that the lawful use of the law for a Christian is not as a means of righteousness but as a means of awakening the sense of sin in the ungodly.Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.(Galatians 3:24)The moral law shows us what we ought to do, and so we learn our inability to do it. The judicial law shows us what we deserve, thus the law leads us to Christ were we find righteousness and peace.The Bible shows us the pattern, the effect of preaching is to show people their sins and prepare them for receiving the pardon found in Jesus, as you said the steps of law then grace seem logical, must we have an specific example of preaching from Acts to follow this logic? In Christ,Ron

Hi Robert, thanks for your reply. When Stephen was preaching he was directing their attention to their personal sin of always resisting the Holy Ghost and their continuance in a policy of killing the prophets who fortold the coming of the Messiah and then killing the messiah Himself. (Acts 7:51-53) That was their great sin and none could be greater. The blood of righteous Abel down through Christ and on to James who was beaten to death with a fuller's club, was heaped on their heads. This was not just preaching about the commandment of murder, but it carried with it the implication of breaking other commandments such as blasphemy of God's name.[/b]Was not this the nation’s sin rather than personal sin? After all this was his address to the Sanhedrin They did stir up also the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and having come upon him , they caught him, and brought him to the sanhedrim; (Act 6:12 YLT) I think this was the nation’s last chance. How different the two responses… Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Act 2:37 KJV) When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. (Act 7:54 KJV)

Paul also confronted idolatry, the 1st and second commandment; Being therefore the offspring of God, we ought not to think that which is divine to be like gold or silver or stone, the graven form of man's art and imagination. (Acts 17:29 Darby). He went on to tell them; And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30 KJV)I’m not sure that he did confront idolatry. I think he confronted the idolaters telling them that the previous ignorance would no longer be ‘overlooked’ by God. Surely ‘repent’ in this context means ‘change your behaviour’? Many circumstances that we can see a bit what was happening in practice. Certainly Romans opens up with a strong rebuke against the transgressors of the unwritten laws of conscience and creation. This applied directly to the Gentiles. Everyone knows they are guilty of transgressing their conscience and trying to ignore God (they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, etc.). This approach is the method for those not knowing the law. It can be proven to the people that they loved darkness rather than light, etc. But Romans is not part of the kerugma but of the didache. Romans was addressed to the saints in Rome, not the idolaters of Athens. Paul is not preaching the gospel in Romans, he is defending it.

Hi Bro. Ron,I’m not sure that he did confront idolatry. I think he confronted the idolaters telling them that the previous ignorance would no longer be ‘overlooked’ by God. Surely ‘repent’ in this context means ‘change your behaviour’?Yes, he was confronting the idolaters for their idolatry. But Romans is not part of the kerugma but of the didache. Romans was addressed to the saints in Rome, not the idolaters of Athens. Paul is not preaching the gospel in Romans, he is defending it.I don't disagree. Certainly we hear his answers, but don't know all the questions involved. However, surely if he was defending the Gospel we can glean a parakaleo from his didache to form a pattern of how the Gospel is kerugma. :-(Go ahead, let me have it :-? God Bless,-Robert

Hi Ron But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners...(1 Timothy 1:8-9)As you know this verse tells us that the lawful use of the law for a Christian is not as a means of righteousness but as a means of awakening the sense of sin in the ungodly.This certainly seems to give a place to a lawful use of the law, but what is it? Paul is criticising ‘teachers of the law’ who don’t understand its purpose. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. (1Ti 1:6-7 KJV) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.(Galatians 3:24)The moral law shows us what we ought to do, and so we learn our inability to do it. The judicial law shows us what we deserve, thus the law leads us to Christ were we find righteousness and peace.The ‘we’ here is in contrast to the ‘you’ of verse 26, contrasting the Jew with the Gentile. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:23-26 ASV) The ‘law’ as paedagogos was the unique experience of those under the law. This was God’s methodology not the preacher’s. As that covenant is now ended and no-one is under that law how can we justify our use of it in this context. The Bible shows us the pattern, the effect of preaching is to show people their sins and prepare them for receiving the pardon found in Jesus, as you said the steps of law then grace seem logical, must we have an specific example of preaching from Acts to follow this logic? This is certainly a legitimate position if we are happy that the effect of preaching was intended to show them their sins and then show them their Saviour. What I am asking is 'was this the purpose of the preaching in Acts?' I know it was the effect of the preaching but was it the purpose. The purpose of the preaching in Acts seems to have been to declare Christ and hence the kerugma. The kerugma has been identified as having the following elements, although not all are present in every example; this is an accumulation.1. The Scriptures predicted the coming the Christ.2. Christ has fulfilled those predictions, even to the death of the cross.3. God has raised Him from the dead and exalted Him to His own right hand.4. He will judge all men at the day of God’s appointment.5. In between that coming day and the present day there is an amnesty.6. Men must acknowledge Christ for who He is and submit to Him.It is number 4. which is the point of our conversation. God will judge men according to what standard? It seems from Acts 17 that a man becomes culpable when he knows what he does. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, (Act 17:30 NASB)

Yes, he was confronting the idolaters for their idolatry. Paul instructs them as at that time that God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; (Act 17:24-25 KJV)He then illustrates from their own poets that God is greater than any idol made with hands, and tells them how they should think Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Act 17:29-31 KJV)I don’t think Paul publicly opposed idolatry. What? you cry… I am intrigued always by this statement from the Ephesian town clerk And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter? Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly. For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess. (Act 19:35-37 KJV) In fact the original charge brought against Paul was not that he had condemned the idolaters but … this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: (Act 19:26b KJV)The consequence of Paul’s preaching had been that many were turning from idolatry but I do not read that he had condemned for idolatry. Now the revelation-didache of Romans 1 is that men turned to idolatry when they turned from God. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Rom 1:21-23 KJV) In that sense, idolatry is the consequence of sin rather than sin itself.For the Jew, of course, idolatry was sin. Their history had been different. The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29 KJV) You will understand, I hope, that I am not advocating idolatry, only that Paul did not ‘accuse’ the Gentiles of that sin as he would inevitably have done if he had been using the law to prepare them for grace. I don't disagree. Certainly we hear his answers, but don't know all the questions involved. However, surely if he was defending the Gospel we can glean a parakaleo from his didache to form a pattern of how the Gospel is kerugma. Er, pardon? :-o