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Finney's Conversion

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UntoBabes Feb 16, 2011

From the Memoirs of Charles G. Finney

North of the village and over a hill lay a wooded area in which I walked almost daily when it was pleasant weather. It was now October and the time was past for my frequent walks there. Nevertheless, instead of going to the office I turned and bent my course toward the woods, feeling that I must be alone and away from all human eyes and ears so that I could pour out my prayer to God.

But still my pride wanted to show itself. As I went over the hill it occurred to me that someone might see me and suppose that I was going away to pray. Yet probably there was not a person on earth that would have suspected such a thing had he seen me going. But so great was my pride, and so much was I possessed with the fear of man, that I remember skulking along under the fence until I got so far out of sight that no one from the village could see me. I then penetrated into the woods, about a quarter of a mile, went over on the other side of the hill and found a place where some large trees had fallen across each other, leaving an open place between. There I saw I could make a kind of closet. I crept into this place and knelt down for prayer. As I had turned to go up into the woods I remembered having said, "I will give my heart to God, or I never will come down from there." I remembered repeating this as I went up, "I will give my heart to God before I ever come down again.''

But when I attempted to pray I found that my heart would not pray. I had supposed that if I could only be where I could speak aloud without being overheard, I could pray freely. But lo! When I came to try, I was dumb; that is, I had nothing to say to God; or at least I could say but a few words, and those without heart. In attempting to pray T would hear a rustling in the leaves and would stop and look up to see if somebody were not coming. This I did several times.

Finally I found myself fast coming to despair. I said to myself, "I cannot pray. My heart is dead to God, and will not pray." I then reproached myself for having promised to give my heart to God before T left the woods. When I came to try, I found I could not give my heart to God. My inward soul hung back, and there was no going out of my heart to God. I began to feel deeply that it was too late, that I was given up of God and was past hope.

The thought was pressing me of the rashness of my promise that I would give my heart to God that day or die in the attempt. It seemed to me as if that was binding upon my soul, and yet I was going to break my vow. A great sinking and discouragement came over me, and I felt almost too weak to stand upon my knees.

Just at this moment I again thought I heard someone approach me, and I opened my eyes to see whether it were so. But right there the revelation of my pride was distinctly shown to me as the great difficulty that stood in the way. An overwhelming sense of my wickedness in being ashamed to have a human being see me on my knees before God took such powerful possession of me that I cried at the top of my voice and exclaimed that I would not leave that place if all the men on earth and all the devils in hell surrounded me. "What!" I said, "such a degraded sinner as 1 am, on my knees confessing my sins to the great and holy God, ashamed to have any human being find me on my knees endeavoring to make my peace with my offended God!" The sin appeared awful, infinite. It broke me down before the Lord.

Just at that point this passage of scripture seemed to drop into my mind with a flood of light: "Then shall you go and pray unto me, and I will hearken to you. Then shall you seek me and find me, when you shall search far me with all your heart."

I instantly seized hold of this with my heart. I had intellectually believed the Bible before, but never had the truth been in my mind that faith was a voluntary trust instead of an intellectual state. I was as conscious of trusting at that moment in God's truthfulness as I was of my own existence. Somehow I knew that was a passage of scripture, though I do not think I had ever read it. I knew that it was God's word, and God's voice, as it were, that spoke to me.

I cried to him. "Lord, I take Thee at Thy word. Now Thou knowest that I do search for Thee with all my heart. and that I have come here to pray to Thee: and Thou hast promised to hear me."

That seemed to settle the question that I could then, that day, perform my vow. The Spirit seemed to lay stress upon that idea in the text, "When you search for me with all your heart." The question of when, that is of the present time, seemed to fall heavily into my heart. I told the Lord that I would take him at his word, that he could not lie, and that therefore I was sure that he heard my prayer and that he would be found of me.

He then gave me many other promises, both from the Old and the New Testament, especially some most precious promises respecting our Lord .Jesus Christ. I never can, in words, make any human being understand how precious and true those promises appeared to me. I took them one after the other as infallible truth, the assertions of God who could not lie. They did not seem so much to fall into my intellect as into my heart, to be put within the grasp of the voluntary powers of my mind, and I seized hold of them with the grasp of a drowning man.

I continued thus to pray and to receive and appropriate promises for a long time. I know not how ions. I prayed till my mind became so full that before I was aware of it, I was on my feet and tripping up the ascent toward the road. The question of my being converted had not so much as arisen to my thought, but as I went up, brushing through the leaves and bushes, I remembered saying with great emphasis, "If I am ever converted, I will preach the Gospel."

I soon reached the road that led to the village, and began to reflect upon what had passed, I found that my mind had become most wonderfully quiet and peaceful. I said to myself, "What is this? I must have grieved the Holy Spirit entirely away. I have lost all my conviction. I have not a particle of concern about my soul. It must be that the Spirit has left me." "Why!" thought I, "I never was so far from being concerned about my own salvation in my life."

Then I remembered what I had said to God while I was on my knees, that I would take him at his word. Indeed, I remembered a good many things that I had said, and concluded that ii was no wonder that the Spirit had left me, that far such a sinner as I to take hold of God's word in that way was presumption, if not blasphemy. I concluded that in my excitement I had grieved the Holy Spirit and perhaps committed the unpardonable sin.

I walked quietly toward the village, and so perfectly quiet was my mind that it seemed as if all nature listened. It was on the 10th of October and a very pleasant day, I had gone into the woods immediately after an early breakfast, and when 1 returned to the village I found it was lunch time. Yet I had been wholly unconscious of the time that had passed. It appeared to me that I had been gone from the village but a short time.

But how was I to account for the quiet of my mind? I tried to recall my convictions, to get back again the load of sin under which I had been laboring. But all sense of sin, all consciousness of present sin or guilt, had departed from me. I said to myself, "What is this, that I cannot arouse any sense of guilt in my soul, as great a sinner as I am?" I tried in Vain to make myself anxious about my present state. I was so quiet and peaceful that I tried to feel concerned about that, lest it should be a result of my having grieved the Spirit away. But take any view of it I would, I could not be anxious at all about my soul and about my spiritual state. The repose of my mind was unspeakably great. I cannot describe it in words. The thought of God was sweet to my mind, and the most profound spiritual tranquillity had taken full possession of me. This was a great mystery, but it did not distress or perplex me

I went to my lunch but found I had no appetite. I then went to the office and found that Squire W-had gone to lunch. I took down my bass viol and, as I was accustomed to do, began to play and sing some pieces of sacred music. But as soon as I began to sing those sacred words I began to weep. It seemed as if my heart was all liquid and my feelings were in such a state that I could not hear my own voice in singing without causing my feelings to overflow. I wondered at this and tried to stop my tears, but could not. After trying in vain to stop my tears, I put up my instrument and stopped singing.

After lunch we were engaged in moving our books and furniture to another office. We were very busy and had but little conversation all afternoon. My mind, however, remained in that profoundly tranquil state. There was a great sweetness and tenderness in my thoughts and feelings. Everything appeared to be going right, and nothing seemed to ruffle or disturb me in the least.

Just before evening the thought possessed my mind that as soon as I was alone in the new office, I would try to pray again. I was not going to abandon the subject of religion and give it up at any rate. Therefore, although I no longer had any concern about my soul, still I would continue to pray.

By evening we had the books and furniture adjusted, and I made a good fire in an open fireplace, hoping to spend the evening alone. Just at dark Squire W----. seeing that everything was adjusted, told me good night and went to his home. I had accompanied him to the door, and as I closed the door and turned around my heart seemed to be liquid within me. All my feelings seemed to rise and flow out and the thought of my heart was, "I want to pour my whole soul out to God." The rising of my soul was so great that I rushed into the room back of the front office to pray.

There was no fire and no light in this back room; nevertheless it appeared to me as if it were perfectly light. As I went in and shut the door after me, it seemed as if I met the Lord Jesus Christ face to face. It seemed to me that I saw him as I would see any other man. He said nothing, but looked at me in such a manner as to break me right down at his feet. It seemed to me a reality that he stood before me, and I fell down at his feet and poured out my soul to him. I wept aloud like a child and made such confessions as I could with my choked words. It seemed to me that I bathed his feet with my tears, and yet I had no distinct impression that I touched him.

I must have continued in this state for a good while, but my mind was too much absorbed with the interview to remember anything that I said. As soon as my mind became calm enough I returned to the front office and found that the fire I had made of large wood was nearly burned out. But as I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Spirit. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any memory of ever hearing the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves of liquid love, for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can remember distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wines.

No words can express the wonderful love that was spread abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love. I literally bellowed out the unspeakable overflow of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, and over me, one after the other, until I remember crying out. "I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me." I said. "Lord, I cannot bear any more," yet I had no fear of death.

How long I continued in this state, with this baptism continuing to roll over me and go through me, I do not know. But I know it was late in the evening when a member of my choir--for I was the leader of the choir--came into the office to see me. He was a member of the church. He found me in this state of loud weeping, and said to me, "Mr. Finney, what's wrong with you?" I could not answer for some time. He then said. "Are you in pain?"

I gathered myself up as best I could, and replied, "No, but so happy that I cannot live.''

He turned and left the office, and in a few minutes returned with one of the elders of the church, whose shop was nearly across the way from our office. This elder was a very serious man and in my presence had been very watchful. I had scarcely ever seen him laugh. When he came in I was very much in the state in which I was when the young man went out to call him. He asked me how I felt and I began to tell him. Instead of saying anything he fell into a most spasmodic laughter. It seemed as if it was impossible for him to keep from laughing from the very bottom of his heart.


http://www.freerevivalcd.com/

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Elowel Mar 13, 2011

I want to be gentle, loving, humble, and submissive to you as a brother in true, Biblical faith, to the glory of God.

Finney was a straight-up Pelagian heretic.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm

Discernment is so important in these days, with false teachers and prophets leading people astray. But let this not quench our thirst for revival, that the world would be turned upside down.

Blessings!

I
InTheLight Mar 13, 2011

I want to be gentle, loving, humble, and submissive to you as a brother in true, Biblical faith, to the glory of God.

You failed.

S
StarofG0D Mar 13, 2011

lol

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Elowel Mar 14, 2011

You failed.
Forgive me, I'm afraid I rushed into that reply without asking God if I had the right spirit to say such things. I'm learning to become more disciplined in my speech and interaction with other people because I want my words to glorify Him.

I
InTheLight Mar 14, 2011

Forgive me, I'm afraid I rushed into that reply without asking God if I had the right spirit to say such things. I'm learning to become more disciplined in my speech and interaction with other people because I want my words to glorify Him.

Well praise God brother, as one who has inserted foot in mouth on many occasions I can sympathize with you.

Since you are new here perhaps I could suggest that you start a new thread and introduce yourself, you'll find we're a friendly bunch here who also seek to glorify God.

Regarding Finney's conversion, I find the account remarkable and the holy life of this man bears testimony to God's amazing grace regardless of what we might think of his theology.

In Christ,

Ron

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Mar 14, 2011


Regarding Finney's conversion, I find the account remarkable and the holy life of this man bears testimony to God's amazing grace regardless of what we might think of his theology.

I agree. I remember reading this shortly after I came to Christ. I had passed from pure agnosticism when I came to Christ. When I read Finney's testimony, I remember that tears came to my eyes/ Finney echoed the experience that I had as a young teen when I poured out my heart, soul and very existence while standing/kneeling alone in a field one night at a summer camp.

It was the realization that I, a sinful human being, could deny the relationship that the Creator of all things wanted to have with me. I poured out my life and told the Lord that I would trade all that I was...and all that I could ever be...if I could just know Him and be His friend.

While I have heard many sides of various arguments regarding Charles Finney and his supposed doctrinal views, the testimony of coming to Christ that he shared is probably one that most closely resembles that night that I met the Lord.

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Elowel Mar 14, 2011

Well praise God brother, as one who has inserted foot in mouth on many occasions I can sympathize with you.

Since you are new here perhaps I could suggest that you start a new thread and introduce yourself, you'll find we're a friendly bunch here who also seek to glorify God.

I don't doubt that. I thank Him that I have the privilege to enjoy such company over the Internet. (:


Regarding Finney's conversion, I find the account remarkable and the holy life of this man bears testimony to God's amazing grace regardless of what we might think of his theology.

I agree. I remember reading this shortly after I came to Christ. I had passed from pure agnosticism when I came to Christ. When I read Finney's testimony, I remember that tears came to my eyes/ Finney echoed the experience that I had as a young teen when I poured out my heart, soul and very existence while standing/kneeling alone in a field one night at a summer camp.

It was the realization that I, a sinful human being, could deny the relationship that the Creator of all things wanted to have with me. I poured out my life and told the Lord that I would trade all that I was...and all that I could ever be...if I could just know Him and be His friend.

While I have heard many sides of various arguments regarding Charles Finney and his supposed doctrinal views, the testimony of coming to Christ that he shared is probably one that most closely resembles that night that I met the Lord.

I empathize with you, and also was moved to tears by feeling a strong connection to Finney's experiences, because I felt like I had a similar experience. I was moved while reading his autobiography, but I was deceived.

But I ask you to carefully and prayerfully read more into Finney. This is not a simple matter of denominational difference, or a conflict within the realms of orthodox Christianity. Finney was a Pelagian. He denied that Christ's righteousness was imputed to us. He believed that man had to make himself right before God to earn salvation.

It's easy to think he was a real believer by the seemingly Biblical language and articulation in his words, but if you read into his theology, it appears dangerous and heretical. This is not me wanting to argue over small doctrinal divisions. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

sermonindex Mar 14, 2011

by James A. Fowler

THE DAISY THAT POSED AS A TULIP

This is a tale full of charade and chicanery. It is the story of the daisy that posed as a tulip. One might be inclined to conclude that a daisy that posed as a tulip would by definition be a poesy, but despite the fact that this daisy has engaged in much posing and posturing, it remains a dusey of a disingenuous daisy. Some have suspected that the daisy was actually a dandelion (a pernicious weed by human reasoning) posing as a daisy, but such duplicitous deceit is beyond the pale of this inquiry, and we shall concentrate our attention on how it is that the apparent daisy posed as a tulip.

Now, our study does not actually pertain to flowering botanicals. This is a theological study that is precipitated by the fact that a particular theological perspective (identified as Calvinism) has portrayed its distinctive epistemological tenets in the acrostic form of the word "TULIP." From the Council of Dort (1619) onwards the theological followers of the reformer, John Calvin (1509-1564) have often formulated their position in five (5) points, and the petals of the Calvinistic "TULIP" are traditionally represented as:


Total depravity\t
Unconditional election\t
Limited atonement\t
Irresistible grace\t
Perseverance of the saints
\t
The underlying presuppositional root and stem of this system of thought is that God is absolutely "sovereign" in His control of the created order that He has created, and that such "sovereignty" does not allow for any freedom of the human creature which would allow man's responsibility for freedom of choice to provide a condition or contingency on God's "sovereign" action. There is obviously a legitimacy in the concern to safeguard the recognition that the divine actions of the Creator God are not dependent upon the actions of the creature, man, in which case man would be in control of God, based on a humanistic premise of the autonomous "sovereignty" of humanity. The problem with the traditional Calvinistic perspective is that they have often emphasized the "sovereignty" of God to the extent that they have denied the responsibility (response-ability) of man in their "TULIP" theology.


Calvinists have sometimes caricatured Arminian theology, based on the teaching of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), as represented by a "daisy" rather than a "tulip". Their intent in so representing Arminianism as a "daisy" theology has been to imply that Arminian theology has no security in the "sovereign" action of God's love, so the adherents of Arminian theology are insecurely picking the petals off of the daisy one at a time, saying, "He loves me. He loves me not," never finding assurance of God's action or of a relationship with God in Jesus Christ. Let it be noted that flower aficionados and theologians are notorious for their misrepresentation of varieties other than their own!

Dare we suggest, in light of this, that the proponents of "TULIP" theology (the Calvinists) are actually advocates of a "DAISY" theology that has always tried to project itself as a "TULIP" theology? Carefully observe that the five points of Calvinistic theology can be more precisely represented in the acrostic form of the word "DAISY":


Depraved inability of human function
\t
Arbitrary selection of the divinely favored
\t
Inequitable limitation of Christ's redemption
\t
Systemic coercion of the predetermined
\t
Yoked confinement of Christian believers\t


This is the "DAISY" that often poses as a "TULIP."
It is hereby proposed that there is a more legitimate "TULIP" theology that maintains the balanced symmetry of a Biblical perspective of the relationship between God and man, recognizing both the autonomous sovereignty of God and the receptive responsibility of man. Such theological understanding might be formulated in this "TULIP" form:


Totality of mankind are spiritually depraved in their fallen spiritual condition as a consequence of Adam's sin.

\t
Unrequited action of God's grace has acted to redeem and restore mankind through Jesus Christ without express or implied contingency of such divine action.

\t
Limitlessness of God's redemptive and restorative action in Jesus Christ makes His work universally available and applicable to all mankind.\t


Individual response of receptivity of faith allows God's grace action to be personally efficacious in the new spiritual creation of the Christian.
\t

Preservation of the Christian in this relationship is divinely enacted in accord with the perseverance of faithful receptivity of God's grace action in a dynamic continuum unto eternity.\t

May we always remember that such acrostic representations are but man-made attempts to organize and explain the revelation of God in His Son, Jesus Christ.

Our faith is not in such theological organization of thought, but in the living Lord Jesus, and the differing formulations of flowering thought should never be made "tests of faith" that jeopardize the unity that we have in Christ.

It would not be difficult to conclude that theologians who ponder such leaves of thought are but "blooming idiots" or "petal pushers" who fallaciously perceive that ultimate meaning is to be found in such "flower power." Though precision of theological explanation is indeed a worthy calling, the need of the hour, for both theologians and Christians in general, is to "wake up and smell the roses" ­ to allow God by His grace to manifest the "fragrance of the knowledge of Christ in every place" (II Cor. 2:14).

That "fragrance" will be evidenced in "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and godly control of the self" (Gal. 5:22,23).

Instead of dissecting the petals of the DAISY or the TULIP, perhaps there is a greater need to "consider the lilies, how they neither toil nor spin" (Matt. 6:28), but are receptive to and rely upon the provision of God's grace.


Amen! ~ from a hybrid-species member of a reformed theology church.

E
Elowel Mar 15, 2011

I implore you. Check out the link in my first reply (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm), asking the Lord to give you wisdom and discernment.

This is not me foolishly making a big deal out of a minor disagreement; he flat out departed from orthodox belief. I earnestly concede to you that I am a fool, but Finney did not believe in the same God we do.

"By no stretch of the imagination does Finney deserve to be regarded as an evangelical. By corrupting the doctrine of justification by faith; by denying the doctrines of original sin and total depravity; by minimizing the sovereignty of God while enthroning the power of the human will; and above all, by undermining the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, Finney filled the bloodstream of American evangelicalism with poisons that have kept the movement maimed even to this day."

We must seek revival. Finney cannot be looked upon as a legitimate example; it does not glorify Him.

sermonindex Mar 15, 2011

Do you feel that Revival has and can only come from Calvinists? That is basically what you are implying.
I'd recommend you do a Search on the forum here and see that we all get along very nicely together and don't feel the need to convert everyone who comes on to either side.

What you are saying sounds as though Methodists, Baptists or any like them, have never nor will ever see Revival.
Or is your idea of Revival, when everyone finally believes the 5 pts of Calvinism?

I did read your article and it was very biased.
Did you read mine?

Finney was more legalistic than even I could bear - when he said I'd have to give up my coffee - but I have others of his books and no one can say that man wasn't saved - and that's what you're saying, as well as your article.

Prayerfully, you'll get more aquainted with your surroundings and we can drop this discussion and allow those who appreciate the good things of Finney to be freely posted without a Calvinism vs whatever debate.

Welcome.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Mar 15, 2011

Hi Elowel...

I certainly appreciate your concern. It is important that we ALL "test everything" when we consider the words and examples of men and doctrines who have gone before us (or still live among us). This is extremely important and was reinforced to me when I met Brother Ravenhill as a teenager.

Brother Ravenhill reminded me that the Church is in the condition that it is in because the Church has been doing the things that it has been doing for so long. But, this is not ALL bad. There are some things that even a worldly congregation with flawed doctrines get right. After all, I Thessalonians 5:21 encourages us not only to test everything, but to HOLD FAST THAT WHICH IS GOOD.

After all, I am NOT a "Calvinist." I largely reject the more extreme views of the more radical apologists for that particular ideology. Yet that doesn't mean that I reject ALL of the views and beliefs of advocates of Calvinism. While I may reject one or more of the specific "points" of those teachings, I think that there are some principles that are either true or on the right path toward something that I deem to be true.

I have read many accusations about what Finney may or may have believed. I realize that NONE of his books were actually penned by his own hand -- save his autobiography (which was penned at the end of his life). Most of what he supposedly believed was written down by others supposedly from their own notes of his lectures.

Unfortunately, we don't have Finney to speak with and verify any of those things. Moreover, we don't know exactly what he believed -- and how long he believed it. After all, many of us are not the same person that we were just a few years ago. Our walk with God is a journey. We sometimes reach the heights of spiritual and doctrinal mountains...and sometimes, we fall to the lowest of lows in the valley of the shadow of death.

Who knows what Finney actually believed other than Finney and God? Yet, I do not follow Finney. I certainly was blessed by his testimony and many points in his autobiography. I have read certain things that are attributed to him that I agree with as well. But, personally, I couldn't care less about WHAT Mr. Finney believed.

I suppose that this is one reason that I am not too keen on being influenced by books and messages that attempt to define my own doctrinal views. I have long felt that the Word of God is enough to form the doctrinal views that are vital or "essential" for believers. After all, churches and ministers -- including teachers -- are not supposed to be defining our views for us. They aren't indoctrination centers where we must adhere to a specific set of doctrinal peculiarities, save those that are undeniably essential to the faith.

I suppose that this is also why I abhor doctrines that are "tagged" by silly titles and monikers (like "the doctrine of substitutionary atonement"). Those titles are certainly extra-Biblical; Too often, I think, the specifics and required "dots and tittles" are as well.

By the way, some people who read and study Finney's "lectures" (that, again, he never penned himself) would argue that he certainly embraced the idea of being justified by faith and those things that you mentioned. Sure, he may not have seen them EXACTLY as you do. However, I suppose that we probably don't see them exactly eye-to-eye either. And I know the God whom I serve.

So, I advise others to avoid being carried away with an emphasis on Finney...or Spurgeon...Moody...or Ravenhill, Wilkerson, or any of the other man that some choose to place upon a pedestal. They are just men. None of them were perfect.

Anyway, these are just a few random thoughts on the matter. There are just so many more important things to focus on...because the time is short. Personally, I think that one of the hallmarks of a true revival will be when we take our eyes off of the men and the specific doctrinal peculiarities that often serve to divide the true Body of Christ by ideological "herding" and we place the fullness of our faith and hunger upon the person of Jesus Christ (the Word of God). The desire for an intimate relationship with the Creator of all things should motivate us to seek Him, find Him, and, once we have found Him, introduce Him to a lost and dying world (and broken "church").

L
looserchapel Mar 15, 2011

I implore you. Check out the link in my first reply (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm)

Brother, I have read your article and I was astonished and shocked when I saw how harshly they (spurgeon.org) undermined and destroyed Finney's Testimony. For them (and I emphasize, for THEM) it seems that Finney has never been converted to begin with and he surely never won one single soul to Christ since he was "heretic". I urge you to listen to Keith Daniel's sermon (link below). It helped me to have a "comprehensive" grasp on the matter (calvinism or armianism) and I definitely agree with him

[url]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=31754&forum=35[/url]

ps: Spurgeon strongly disagreed with Finney on his theology, yet he never labelled him as heretic, the same goes for John Wesley

E
Elowel Mar 15, 2011

Do you feel that Revival has and can only come from Calvinists? That is basically what you are implying.
I'd recommend you do a Search on the forum here and see that we all get along very nicely together and don't feel the need to convert everyone who comes on to either side.
What you are saying sounds as though Methodists, Baptists or any like them, have never nor will ever see Revival.
I disagree, that's not what I'm implying. I don't believe revival can only come from Calvinists, nor do I feel compelled to "convert" everyone to my own theology.

Or is your idea of Revival, when everyone finally believes the 5 pts of Calvinism?
No, I don't believe that. Nor do I call myself Calvinist, but I do hold to doctrines of sovereign grace and disagree with Arminianism. However, that's not the issue here.

I did read your article and it was very biased.
Did you read mine?
I did read your article, and it was very irrelevant. (:

Finney was more legalistic than even I could bear - when he said I'd have to give up my coffee - but I have others of his books and no one can say that man wasn't saved - and that's what you're saying, as well as your article.
If he believed what he wrote in his Systematic Theology, then he wasn't. I've read through some of his autobiography, and I know how compelling it sounds--I was moved to tears, thinking, "Truly, this was a man of God." But a man of God doesn't think he is responsible for achieving salvation.

Prayerfully, you'll get more aquainted with your surroundings and we can drop this discussion and allow those who appreciate the good things of Finney to be freely posted without a Calvinism vs whatever debate.

Welcome.

It's a privilege to be here.

I don't care about Arminianism. I know Leonard Ravenhill was an Arminian. I love Leonard Ravenhill. I was I had the privilege to meet him before he died. God has used his words to stir me to godliness in a way that I cannot begin to thank Him.

Again, as I have said before, this is an issue about departing from orthodox Christianity, not about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. You think I'm comparing apples of Calvinism to the oranges of Arminianism, but at least they're both fruit. I'm saying Finney is a fungus, not even a fruit to begin with. The issue is Pelagianism--heresy.

http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/journals/horton.htm

ps: Spurgeon strongly disagreed with Finney on his theology, yet he never labelled him as heretic, the same goes for John Wesley
Keith Green, a godly musician, promoted Finney as well; that doesn't change Finney's theology. They just didn't know.

Please don't regard me as another confused brother making a Calvinist vs. Arminian argument, that's not what this is. I love Calvinists and I love Arminians, those who truly know God. I look forward to spending time with both groups in eternity (especially Mr. Ravenhill) to the praise of God.

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Madefree Mar 15, 2011

I speak this in love, and with great trepidation, but why is there a debate on a post that was meant for the edification of the saints? Why does someone post something that is to be a blessing stir up strife against one another? I would say this is not from the Lord.

I apologize in advance if I have said anything out of line or offensive towards you and your beliefs, but I have read Calvin and I have read Finney, I know both sides and there is really no reason to waste God's time arguing about it.

My humble opinion.

-Mike W.

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PaulWest Mar 15, 2011

I speak this in love, and with great trepidation, but why is there a debate on a post that was meant for the edification of the saints? Why does someone post something that is to be a blessing stir up strife against one another? I would say this is not from the Lord.

You're right - it's not. This sort of thing has been the bane of these forums for a long while now. The wise person will avoid these disputatious discussions in lieu of his/her own relationship with God. The Holy Spirit will not let you continue long in them without a rebuke. We think we are doing the Lord's business in protecting our own coveted theological flag of allegiance, but in the end though we may win the argument, we ultimately suffer loss. Our maturity is stymied, our grace withers, unrest clouds our minds. And all for what? To win a tactical battle for the sake of our trophy "isms".

Often, the Lord will use the very men our theology will not allow Him to. They will be used tremendously, in spite of their faults or pathetic lack of light on some sacrosanct area of Christian dogma like the atonement or justification, and the Lord will use them deliberately to put to shame those who stand strong with correct doctrine. He does this to show us that there is something even more inportant than theological precision or positional correctness: transmitting Christ's love unto others here on earth. Finney loved God, and he loved sinners. John Wesley loved God, and he loved sinners. George Whitefield loved God, and he loved sinners. Savanarola loved God, and he loved sinners. God used them all in revival, indiscriminate of their theology, to show us He is after much more than hard, cold theology.

It is fine to have your own theology, and it is important for it to be correct, for it shapes your understanding of God and his dispensations of grace, love, correction; I believe in the absolute sovereignity of God to a degree that many here would be offended. But I am careful to not make an issue of it, to not let it harm my fellowship with other dear believers I respect and love and for whom Christ died. I am careful to not make my theology an idol, or a stumbling block, for I do not see any "ism" as being salvific in and of itself. Jesus Christ transcends "isms" and meets us right where we are, before we have a chance to study up and become theologically astute. This is what we should be going back to and mining for, for the pure personal gold of Christ not to be found in any Wesley devotion or Finney discourse or Spurgeon sermon. This is the sort of treasure that truly edifies, and that gives the believe something truly worthy to share with others of ternal consequence.

The deeper you go with God, and the more intimacy you gain, the more you begin to see God pulling you away from these types of inauspicious discussions and into the more serene waters of rest and quiet obedience. From this point you begin to see the merits of each: of Finney, of Wesley, of Spurgeon, of Nee, of the Pentecostals, of the Puritans, the Anabaptists, etc., and while others squabble on the ground over stale crumbs, you'll find yourself soaring from flower to flower to glean the nectar you need. Because, with the mind of Christ, you can learn much from the different men and women God used in the past - especially from the ones you disagree with the most.

Paul

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RobertW Mar 16, 2011

Good words Paul.

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Elowel Mar 16, 2011

Ravenhill, Wesley, Nee, Whitefield, Tozer, Spurgeon, Pentecostals, Anabaptists, Puritans... they still believed in the same core tenets of Christianity and we can have fellowship with all of them. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXA5UOkLTyo)

But I cannot say the same for Finney; I can't group him with any of those people above. He preached a different Gospel. The information is in the links I've provided, and you can read his Systematic Theology for yourself. I'm aware that you're saying, "It doesn't matter what he believed, he was a man of God and he changed lives through revival," but did he really? See the "The Fallout from Finney's Doctrines."

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." - Galatians 1:8-9

If I'm prideful, then please, pray that the Holy Spirit would discipline me harshly for any mean-spiritedness or arrogance in me. I'm just a sinner as Finney was, just as every other human being who isn't Jesus. The difference between me and Finney, however, is that he didn't believe that's true.

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UntoBabes Mar 17, 2011

I have posted three articles below by Finney. Please friend, before you accuse anyone read them, then read Psalm 52 and heed the warnings therein.

http://firesofrevival.com/power/power07.htm

http://gospeltruth.net/1856OE/560730_the_atonement.htm

http://gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC/lptc05_just_by_faith.htm

you can also get all of Finney'sermons on this website

http://gospeltruth.net/ot_nt_search_page.htm

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Elowel Mar 17, 2011

I have posted three articles below by Finney. Please friend, before you accuse anyone read them, then read Psalm 52 and heed the warnings therein.
I have read the three articles, and Psalm 52. I will not deceive you, I read through them. Now, would you please graciously return the favor? After all, if I spent that time reading those texts, will you not do the same for me? I have something for you to read. Yes, it turns out people have already had this discussion on this forum! Read the whole thing for me without skimming too much, would you?

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=2815&forum=34&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1

Be discerning. If you want to know more:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Gaqa8Cr6Y

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." - Matthew 7:15

There is so much error these days, that false teaching is seriously one of my biggest fears and concerns, especially when I see how it has affected my own family, those around me, and evangelical churches in America.

It's possible that you are too convinced that you are right, and/or that I am too convinced that I am right for either of us to concede to an agreement. But this is not a minor issue like Calvinism vs. Arminianism, as I stated before. It's about the difference between a real saving faith and a false Gospel being taught by Finney. No, it's not like your salvation or my salvation is at stake, by the grace of God we have heard the words of real believers and believed the real Gospel. All I can say is that I don't recommend promoting Finney.

I say this all with love. You're still my brother. (:

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