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"Strange manifestations ... Counterfeit experiences"

S
sonofthunder Mar 4, 2011

Let me start out saying i believe in a full gospel! And I wholly embrace the Power of God message and i believe in a signs and wonders Gospel that saves, heals, delivers. Indeed deliverance is the childrens bread! therefore i believe in the finger of God to drive out evil spirits and let the prisoners go free. My position is: if God said it in his word then that settles it i believe it. In fact i believe it all, i embrace it all, and i recieve it all! And i reject outright the doctrine of cessationism.

God forbid that "I" or anyone "else" for that matter should get in God's way - or oppose a genuine work of God.

But now for the flip side! i also believe there is counterfeit and i believe there is the false supernatural and i believe that lying wonders and signs can be in our midst and I believe there is bogus and i believe there is that which masquerades itself as the true.

NOW THE CHURCH HAS NEVER HAD A PROBLEM BELIEVING IN THE FALSE SUPERNATURAL PER SE! however, in the past we have quarantined or assigned anything false to the occult or to withces they sneak into meetings trying to resist the meet.

As for false prophets well they were usually associated with cult figures or the waco and Guyanna incidents...

Everything else was consigned to the occult or the (too hard basket) failing that the devil got blamed for everything.

And For anyone to suggest even remotely that something wasnt quite right (within) the church was to risk being marginalized or charged with conspiracy theories. Worse sometimes you were laughed to scorn and mocked deridingly.

But things have changed markedly and the dynamic has changed considerbaly from those earlier days of both the seventies and eighties. When i was young boy growing up in the evangelical church we had film nights which covered the occult, backward masking and UFO phenomena sightings! This was our understanding of the false supernatural and we believed it appertained primarily - to the (without) of the church. and as i said before occassionally witches would sneek into the back rows and attempt to withstand the meeting. But that was as far as we thought it could come - (within).

But as i said times have changed and the admonition by the apostle peter now resonates with much greater meaning: when he said "the false prophets were among the people" Yes peter said They were among God's people (the Jews) they werent in saudi arabia or assyria or even downtown eygpt land! but (smack bang in the middle) of God's people. (2nd peter 2) in other words they were operational from within.

But to raise any alarm or sound trumpets today is to be called a pharisee or risk touching the man of God! worse some say you have commited blasphemy of the holy ghost - all for raising questions or having some suspicions.

But despite these counter threats to "back off" many have remained unafraid and undetered to sound alarms and sirens! To red flag something as it were - if it were "off"

As i said before but it bears repeating if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...its a duck!

And as spritual people we thus compare "spiritual things with spiritual things" this is our calling brethren. We compare apples with apples - and not apples with oranges.

We must measure everthing by the standard of God's Word!

This is the acid or litmus test by which we approve things.

I have always believed and held the position of - and make no apolgies for it (Btw) that as Spiritual people of God we MUST "discern the dreams, prove the prophesies, verify the visions, and test the Spirits" Because as John so rightly said "many false prophets are gone out in the world"

Further the apostle admonishes to prove all things:
And hold fast to that which is Good:

In fact: Paul told the Jews in Romans chapter two that they did well in that they " approved things which were excellent"

NO: not everything think that glitters is Gold and there is such a thing as "Pirae gold or fool's gold" which can have the appearance of real gold but upon closer inspection. It is seen as false! An imitation of the real thing.

Now i grew up in "Pentecostal churches" and i firmly believe in genuine valid experiences which demonstrate the power of God. There is are no issues there! I concur with paul that the kingdom of God is not in word only, but in power.

In fact the jews of olden time grew up as little children hearing about the great signs and wonders that the Lord did in Egypt and of the great plagues he sent upon the land of coshen and how God wonderfully dealt with the Jewish fathers in sending them a deliver by the name of Moses. Indeed The Divine supernatural power of God was nothing unusual to the Jews (of Old).

And This awesome display of God's power continued to shew itself at sundry times down through the generations and dispensational times. Yes right on through to the day of pentecost and beyond. With the ACTS of the apostles more than proving that God had NOT taken away his gifts and his wonders from operation! Yes right on up until this present hour we have witnessed the gifts of the Holy spirit at work amongst his people - the church.

So just to re-iterate that i personally believe LOCK-STOCK-AND BARREL ...IN ALL OF THE GIFTS AND MIRACLES THAT ARE TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE AND THAT THEY ARE READILY AVAILABLE TO THE CHURCH - FOR THIS PRESENT HOUR.

But again just to balance the spiritual equation you would have to be very naieve and ignorant not to accept that the devil also wars from (within) and not just from (without)

So in these latter times of doctrines of devils and decieving spirits we need to have discernment! And we need that discernment sharpened! In fact sharpened by God's pencil sharpener of discernment.

As we are living in a time when people who go to "church" want to have an "experience" they want to quote "feel God" They want to come away from nearly every service having had an "encounter"

In fact: A lot of the demonstrations that now place during a service can be traced back to men that frequently made the remark " there has got to be more to christianity, than just this" (unquote)

Mmm.

Be careful what you ask for!

However, some believe the passage that "God would not give a scorpion for an egg" is somehow there immunity to all counterfeit and deception.

If that were even remotely true contextually speaking: then why would Christ say beware of men! and beware of wolves (false prophets) who come dressed to you in sheeps clothing?

Why would paul inform the Galations of perverted gospels and of certain men who had crept in?

And i seem to recall at this juncture an incident in the book of Acts where Paul spoke of a certain false prophet who did not cease to pervert the right ways of God.

It Can happen! and it can happen in our times!

But as i said before to suggest anything was up with the present day church and present day experiencial christianity was to risk being black-balled and marginalized

So you kept quiet and you said nothing!

And many that had questions and doubts were often too afraid to discuss those doubts and questions. And they were told if they said anything - they were in effect opposing the move of God and risked "touching God's anointed"

So the consequence was the following: A whole host and mariad of experiences was on demonstration to behold - and served up on our tables.
(In a manner of speaking)
This is wide and varied in its manifestation and there is no way you could cover it in a single sitting or posting:

But just to name a few: "falling under the power (slain in the Spirit) laughing uncontrollable in public, rolling on the floor, twitching, jerking, shaking, convulsing, chopping the air in windmill mock imitation form, barking, growling, animal noises, strange noises, creepy noises, deep sleeps, unconscious states and semi conscious states, frozen bodily states. Uncontrollable muscle spasms and convulsing, people suddenly losing there balance and falling hard on the floor! Furthermore the recipients of the slain in the spirit experience often make startling claims of visiting heaven and visiting the throne and of seeing angels and flying through the air and appearing through walls and of over hearing conversations between people through those walls! others claim to supernaturally be lifted up into the Air and of leaving there bodies to visit other places and countries.

In fact one man who is a leading figure on television and radio and has a wide circulation of dvd's and other resource materials claims to have experienced some of the above incredible things! and is utterly convinced these occurences are - from God!

So as i said before its not wether weird manifestations happen! or the false supernatural is possible or counterfeit can creep in? its happening now and before our very eyes and under our noses

Hence the understatement: we need discernment! Would have to be the proverbial understatement of the century beloved. but to sum we find ourselves living in times when all kinds of incredible testimonies abound, fantastic stories heard, startling claims made! But how much if any of it...should we embrace? Indeed some feel compelled to experience all that god has for them. Still others do it from peer pressure - whilst others think they are missing out and so throw caution to the wind! But when its all said and done...the Individual must get themselves to a place whereby they can distinguish truth from error, right from wrong, the spirit from that which is flesh!!!

J
Jenga Mar 4, 2011

I have a sister who has dreams. She tends to concentrate more on her dreams than truth and this bothers me. She believes that her dreams are from God and that God has spoken to her audibly. She gets frustrated with me when I tell her I don't want any part of it. I concentrate on the word of God and not manifestations that may or may not be of God. She also holds to the word of faith movement, speaking in tongues, the prosperity gospel. How can you know if your dreams are of God or not?

sermonindex Mar 4, 2011


Here is a video that Strom posted and is also here on SI somewhere below. There are parts 2 and 3 also on U tube.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM

This addresses your concerns to the T, I suppose...BT

J
Jenga Mar 4, 2011

Thank you for the video. It was informative and creepy. I need scripture that addresses this issue of dreams. She has scripture that seems to validate her dreams, especially in Daniel. The only thing she does not have, is someone to interpret them and that's what is most troubling to her.

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sonofthunder Mar 4, 2011

Personally I don't place to much emphasis on dreams. They are mostly a personal thing though. We should be guided divine scripture. Not night visions of the head! A lot of people appeal to Daniel to support there experiences...however there is one mighty big difference between us and Daniel? He was a prophet....and in that time - the lord spoke directly through his prophets. People today place more on experiences than the word. That's the problem often enough. A. Strom video is a wake up call - but from a deconstructive point of view. People want answers to these things though...

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staff Mar 4, 2011

Hi Snofthunder,
Dreams are not taken seriously because both christians and non christians have dreams where as only Christians have visions.So when a christian says he had a vision everyone realizes that it was supernatural.When a christian has a dream the response is luke warm because everyone dreams so maybe its from God or maybe its just a normal dream.
God can show biblical truth through dreams and visions.It has to pass the test though that it is scriptural.
Also it is unscriptural not to take dreams from God seriously(your young men will see visions and your old men will have dreams)God used visions to show scriptural truth to Peter when he saw the unclean animals to eat.To Say god could not teach you something scriptural in a dream also would be wrong.Just check that it is scriptural.
Also may I add sometimes when our priorities are not correct and we are too busy with a life God uses dreams to get our attention as we cant get away from him when we are asleep!
An example of a dream.I kept having a dream about having to retake my exams and repeating school to do it.I knew it was from God and hated having this dream as you could imagine exams....Anyway the intpretation was that my life was in stagnation,stopped and needed to move on.
Also God can use dreams to help the church or confirm things to other christians.
I totally agree with you about people looking for experiences rather than a relationship.However God has given us this great for the want of a better word resource to the church of dreams and my advice to everyone is Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater,take dreams from God seriously,if it has to do with doctrine check diligently that it is scriptural.
As for God I have to thank God for dreams even when it isnt something I want to see,Yours Staff

sermonindex Mar 4, 2011

Jenga, I certainly do empathize with you on this issue.
No where in the NT will anyone find "dream interpreters".
As our Brother said, they pull this from Daniel and whenever dreams needed to be interpreted, it was by a man who was especially blessed of GOD to interpret for Kings or the servants of Kings.
GOD used dreams to instruct Joseph, a number of times in Matthew on where to go next with Jesus and his wife Mary and even spoke directly to Pilate, to make him fear to kill Jesus and the prophecy that "your old men will dream dreams" never indicated that the New Testament Spirit filled Church would need interpreters for dreams.
I've seen places on the internet where anyone can post their dreams and it's open to a hundred different interpreters. That's occultic.
When GOD gives a dream, He does not confuse a person as to what it means. He is not the Author of confusion.

Dreams mainly come from self - sometimes satan and sometimes GOD will use a clear dream to instruct us. He is not the Author of confusion and that is all I see on those sites that I mentioned. It's almost like the "psychic hotline" or something similar.

The deception is great and mainly caused by a lazy generation that get bored with just studying the WORD of GOD.
Maybe some haven't been out and about in cyberspace that much to see what is going on in the "signs & wonders" areas but it will shake you, if you're grounded in the WORD.

Even when a person is just tired or depressed they need to guard against false manifestations, because if satan can't delude you when you're wide awake, his best time for injected things into the mind or causing folks to experience something is when they are tired, asleep, depressed or sick. Many cults have been started by people who have had dreams, etc. and are still organized "religions" unto this day.

When it's GOD, it will have a clear Biblical backing to it and the person will have a peace of understanding, even if it's a dream to show us something that needs to change in our lives. The results of a true manifestation of the Holy Spirit is a "sound mind" - a Scripturally productive result and won't merely be what one has heard others saying on the News or anything else that one has probably read or heard elsewhere. Many people are so watchful of the News or other's "prophecies", that they'll dream about these things. Dreams are just the digesting of what is taken in while awake.
As they say, GOD doesn't mess with the Saints minds nor does He go beyond what He's written. That brings Peace. Thank GOD.

L
Lysa Mar 5, 2011

I need scripture that addresses this issue of dreams. She has scripture that seems to validate her dreams, especially in Daniel.

She needs wisdom and that with knowledge. A lot of people get knowledge but then don't pray for wisdom to apply that knowledge. (To really know what could be from the Lord and what is not from the Lord.)

If I were to advise you, I would say let the God that answers by fire be God and YOU pray and YOU believe in YOUR own secret prayer closet praying for her to have wisdom and that with knowledge. Then watch what God does for her and for you! It might take a few years, are you willing to believe and hang in for your sister as long as it takes?

The only thing she does not have, is someone to interpret them and that's what is most troubling to her.

She will have to walk in trust and do what Mary did for 33 years with Christ in Luke 2:19 "But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart." Some dreams take years to come to pass. These gifts and fruits that God gives us are not for the impatient.

My favorite pastor/mentor years ago said, "You can get six people to carry you to the grave easier than you can six people to tarry in prayer all night with you." And that's the truth.

God bless you,
Lisa

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staff Mar 5, 2011

Hi,
Your just throwing out the baby with the bathwater!
Your saying dont except any dream just to be on the safe side.This is fear.
Its a bit like a post I put up when I said that I would rather have no Christian TV stations as 10 out of 12 are rubbish.Just because this crazy world mis use dreams doesnt means dreams should be discarded.Its not just dreams they mis use its everything.
Normal dreams of man is just digesting of what is taken in while awake I accept that but a dream from God is not and should be accepted and the reciever should ask for an intrepretation themselves.I think like Lysa said they should ponder them in their heart until that time.
Christian who study the word and Christians who dont study the word can get dreams from God.
Sometimes dreams dont bring peace of mind straight but can alarm you.
I got a dream from God once for example:
A friend in the church who was a deacon in my dream was building a structure.He was on a scaffolding and it collapsed and he appeared to die.I woke up alarmed and prayed for him.A while later I realized what God was saying was that he was building his own house not Gods and that it would collapse and that he would die to himself.
That did happen.I then prayed for his restoration,
So it directed my prayer
Dont throw out the baby with the bath water!
Yours Staff


sermonindex Mar 5, 2011


Brother Staff, I see you misread my post. I have had dreams. My friends have had dreams. You had dreams - but the poster's sister is upset because she can't find anyone to interpret her dreams and that should not be necessary. That's the lack of 'peace' that I was alluding to.
I do believe that GOD gives dreams. It's in my post.
Peace to you!

S
sonofthunder Mar 5, 2011

It should be understood ...i am not against dreams per se! I've had lots myself. I believe Solomon said through the multitude of business - cometh many dreams. Dreams are exactly what they are...dreams. We don't rely heavily on them for guidance (overall) that said god sometimes communicates this way to us. You'd be foolish to be totally dismissive of them. Please ensure you don't qoute others out of context.

J
Jenga Mar 6, 2011

Thank you for addressing this for me. You said a lot that describes what she is going through especially, a lack of motivation or being bored with the word of God and wanting more from Him than mere grace for living the christian life. This has cost me a relationship with her due to the fact that this all started with the faith-healing movement and watching people like Benny Hinn. (I probably should have said that earlier). I am a calvinist and things that I have shared with her, Rom Ch 9, the sovereignty of God, caused her great mental distress (she greatly questioned her salvation because of it) and she told me that God told her to stay away from me. So, basically, that is where I am. Thank you for listening and sharing your thoughts.

J
Jenga Mar 6, 2011

Lysa, I agree with all that you have said here. I believe she needs patience, knowledge and wisdom. I believe her biggest problem is that she is relying too much on her dreams and not the word of God. I personally, have had 1 or 2 dreams and one vision but I just never pursued them. I figured if God wants me to know their meaning, it will be revealed to me. I would rather have his word.

Thank you so much for your help,

jenga

L
learjet Mar 6, 2011

When GOD gives a dream, He does not confuse a person as to what it means. He is not the Author of confusion.

Brother,

What you have said here is simply not true.

Pharaoh was confused by his dream, that's why he needed Joseph to interpret it. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and was confused by it, that's why he needed Daniel to interpret it, in fact he decided not to even tell the worldly sorcerers the dream, he figured that a true man of God would know even the dream without hearing what the dream was about.

No where in the NT will anyone find "dream interpreters". As our Brother said, they pull this from Daniel and whenever dreams needed to be interpreted, it was by a man who was especially blessed of GOD to interpret for Kings or the servants of Kings.

Hebrews 13:8 teaches us that "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever." This means the things that He has done in the past, He still does today. Arguing that the interpretation of dreams and visions is a past dispensational thing that is no longer needed is simply false.

Second Timothy 3:16 says:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

Peter stood up on the day of Pentecost and quoted the prophet Joel when he said that:

'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." -Acts 2:17

If I get anything from that scripture, it's that 'dreams and visions' will increase, not decrease as we get closer and closer to the day of our Lord.

In Christ,
Earl J

J
Jenga Mar 6, 2011

I definitely agree. Thank you for you input.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2011

Amen Earl, you can't get any clearer than that!

It is my experience that when anyone tries to neatly put the power of God in little boxes, is one who doesn't believe in the gifts of the Spirit are for today.

sermonindex Mar 7, 2011

Hi Brother Earl. I would challenge you to read my post again or should I say, really read it.

I'll place a challenge to anyone to find one place where a servant of The Most High GOD needed another person to interpret a dream in either the O.T. or the New - except for The LORD Himself or one of His Angels that would help a servant of GOD to understand a vision or dream.

You posted: ""Hebrews 13:8 teaches us that "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever." This means the things that He has done in the past, He still does today.""

I say - Yes and Amen to this part. THAT is For Sure!

You posted Acts 2:17 - that verse as well is in my post - so I see that you're the second person who didn't really read my post but have problems with it.

This is like the Pepsi challenge. :o)

And at the end of the day ~ it will always be, read The WORD.

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