"Sipping Saints" by David Wilkerson

Thank you so much, Sister, for posting these. I am in wholehearted agreement even BEFORE I read them. Brother Wilkerson is credible because of where and how he has ministered for the past 50 years - he is not sitting in his armchair in affluent America. Oh that more preachers would speak out - I fear Christendom in America is far down on the slippery slope....

In Romans 14, Paul says drinking wine falls under the area of Christian liberty. About everybody in the Old Testament drank wine, except for those under Nazerite vow. In the New Testament, Jesus drank wine and did so enough that some falsely accused him of being a drunkard. Wine was a part of the Lord's Supper, and some drank so much that they sinned and got drunk.

The idea that drinking alcohol is somehow forbidden in Scriptures is just plain wrong. It's no more sinful to drink alcohol than it is to eat a Big Mac at McDonalds. The problem is, however, when one lacks self-control, and over indulges. When you drink too much, you are a drunk. When you eat too much, you are a glutton. But eating and drinking in and of themselves, are perfectly fine. Just don't do too much of either.

That is the plain teaching of Scripture from cover to cover.

And not to slam him, but Wilkerson is just plain wrong about Jesus turning water into wine. When Jesus turned water into wine, the Jews there acknowledge that this was, "the good stuff," and praised the host for his unusual custom of saving the best wine for last. For the custom was, you serve the good stuff first, and the cheap stuff last. Indeed, that is how many people still drink today. You start off with the stronger stuff and when it's done it's work, you just go cheap.

Very butchered exegesis with extreme personal stories. I know it might be hard for Wilkerson to believe, but you can drink in moderation and never get drunk or become an alcoholic.

by KingJimmy...I know it might be hard for Wilkerson to believe, but you can drink in moderation and never get drunk or become an alcoholic.

KJ, my Grandmother which would now be about 118 years old, and the most Godly woman I have ever known till today, used to have a glass of wine every night before bed, she lived to be 99. The word Alcohol to "most" Christians seems to be a vulgar word, I personally don't drink, but it's just because I could never adapt a taste for any of it, but I did smoke pot until 1995 and gave that up. It's called moderation, I sometimes wished I could adapt a taste to even wine, because I have many days I need something to take the edge off, and also it's rough out yonder going through life stone cold sober. I wished all us Christians could be more like Jesus, he just told the woman at the well, go and sin no more, could you just imagine what a today's Christian might have said to the woman after finding out about her past? maybe not in front of her but the gossip after-wards we could only imagine.

by KingJimmy And not to slam him, but Wilkerson is just plain wrong about Jesus turning water into wine.

So many Pastors now days are more vocal on "opinions" this is why I always carry my sword everywhere I go, because I have had many "Christians" come up to me and say my Pastor said......I said he did? ok let me check this out in my Bible and see "exactly" what God said. Any real Christian will always check their Bible if they are not sure, and then you have the ones that are satisfied hearing what was said regardless of the truth, because it fits their beliefs.

Somebody at my work gifted me with a bottle of champagne for New Years. I gladly took it. I don't know when I'll ever drink it. One day I suppose, should I have company and a very special reason to do so. I'm not a big fan of alcohol myself. I'm very selective about what I drink, and when I do, it's usually only one glass-- at the most two. But having served alcohol before in a restaurant, and knowing something of the science of it, I'm also very aware of how to drink it very slowly, and I always eat something with it.

If you drink a glass over one hour, and have something to eat, you will avoid even getting a "buzzed" feeling, let alone drunk. I seldom drink, but I've had enough to know that if you do get drunk, it's because you either are completely oblivious to responsible alcohol consumption, or you deliberately chose to get drunk. And usually, it's the latter. It's like beign a glutton. You KNOW when you are full, and when you should stop eating.

Not to boast in my Christian liberty or offend my brethren, but frankly, after a long hot day of work during the summer, there is nothing like coming home once and a while, and having an ice cold beer or chilled glass of wine. And for the record, wine is a lot stronger than beer in alcohol content. You can usually drink two beers for every glass of wine.

But again, all according to their own conscience. I would never encourage anybody to drink unless they really know what they are doing, and geniunely like what they drink.

My PERSONAL conviction is that Christians should not drink. If only to prevent others from stumbling. If someone asks if we have alcohol in our fridge we should be able to say no. Alcohol has destroyed so many lives it's foolish to mess with. Many are lax in their own judgment of moderation and its easy to self-medicate in a moment of depression or weakness. That said, this line of thought could also apply to the internet etc. So it remains a matter of conscience.

There were two types of wine used in Bible times and one of them was essentially grape juice. This is explained by Greek writers of the time period who detail the wine-making process and differentiate between the two Greek words for wine. That said, Jesus did produce the hard stuff.

My PERSONAL convictions and advice would be that everyone should abstain from alcohol, but that is my opinion not a hard and fast discernment from the heart of the LORD. I know a number of Christians who drink, but almost all of them have over indulged at one point or another (I witnessed a number of them do so). Drunkenness is the work of the devil. A drink is not worth the risk.

There were two types of wine used in Bible times and one of them was essentially grape juice. This is explained by Greek writers of the time period who detail the wine-making process and differentiate between the two Greek words for wine.

Just out of curiosity for personal study, could you please point me to a scholarly resource to back this common claim up. I know it is often claimed, but I've yet to actually see proof of this claim. Because it is my understanding all grapes will ferment over time. Various processes are introduced to modify this of course... but the end thereof is always fermintation to various levels.

Much thanks.

Dear Saints,

We are already treading in areas where our beloved apostle instructed us not to go. We need to understand and heed his caution "...but not unto doubtful disputations." The Greek word dialogismos means to dialogue through a matter in an attempt to come to a conclusion. Paul is warning against these type of dialogues on such matters. Instead he gives this clear instruction "Do you have faith have faith unto God".

We tread on very thin ice to think our "personal opinion" is helpful. If one is sharing his opinion with others - is it truly "personal" anymore? The prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, whereas the fool delights in airing his opinions - especially the "personal" ones.

makrothumia

I will get back to you on this. I have an article on it, but I have to dig it up. It contained scholarly citations and references, but while it was heavily anti-wine, the information it presented merely indicates that there were two types, without an entirely accurate way to discern which type is being talked about when.

by flameoffire I will get back to you on this, the information it presented merely indicates that there were two types.

I believe you, I know there were two kinds some as grape juice, and this scripture pretty much tells bout the alcohol version."Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:17-18 (NKJV)
As long as I don't have a 300# Pastor, that eats 5...five course meals a day, telling me not to consume alcohol, I am ok with that, just don't be a hypocrite, because "most" everything is ok in moderation. I guess you could relate drunkenness to food also, you might feel ok, but your belly might feel drunk. lol

We tread on very thin ice to think our "personal opinion" is helpful. If one is sharing his opinion with others - is it truly "personal" anymore? The prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, whereas the fool delights in airing his opinions - especially the "personal" ones

I apologize; I may have posted foolishly. My hope was to bridge a gap by illustrating that this is a matter of conscience and describing the reasons for my own conviction on the matter. I did think it would be useful which might have been foolish or proud. Paul does give his "opinion" in regards to some matters in his letters stating that he did not have a command from the LORD (1 Corinthians 7:25). My earnest desire was not to contribute to division, but to contribute to understanding, which was one of the reasons I heavily qualified what I said. Thank you for your rebuke. I will earnestly pray about the wisdom or foolishness of what I posted previously.

Thank you for your gracious reply. I honestly did not have your post in mind for your post was graciously written and your intent to insure your thoughts were limited in scope were clear enough. I was seeking to capitalize on the word "personal" and did not mean to draw upon your use of the word in a way of reproof. Your humble response shows me you were not in need of reproof in this matter.

This topic simply provides a wonderful opportunity for us to learn not to be drawn into attempts to "convince" (latin for conquer with) others on matters where we have received instruction to not enter into dialogue. We must have faith that the Holy Spirit has been sent to reprove the world of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Thank you, makrothumia. You have been gracious. I should still be a slower to share my opinions.

I hesitate to reply because it seems that those who desire to live a holy and set-apart lifestyle, get trounced on on this site. I do not have the gift of debate. Nor do I have the time for the lengthy posts that so many seem able to do. But on reading the 2 Wilkerson articles originally posted, I have to say that I still whole-heartedly agree. I would be one to be jumped on for my "legalistic" stance here on this forum. However I am 58 years old, and I have walked with the Lord for 31 of those years. God HAS given just plain wisdom and common sense to people. Not to mention that there were at least 7 or 8 Scriptures quoted in the Sipping Saints article. The Holy Spirit in me tells me that in most every case drinking is wrong. I will not take on the 118 year old godly grandmother. There are many things that are spiritually discerned. And two points that would be in favor of avoiding alcohol would be 1)not causing a weaker brother to stumble (I would say there are MANY weaker brothers in our society with relation to drinking), and 2)also the point about avoiding even the appearance of evil. I know even as an unsaved young person in high school, I was SO disappointed to see the pastor of our youth group walking out of a liquor store with a bag - it just did not seem to "fit" with his station in life, or godly living. As I said, I do not have the gift of debate. But I have to wonder if so often in our culture, what used to be called "holiness" is now called "legalism", and if that is not the result of our depraved human nature that just does not want to be told what to do. Maybe, just maybe, many of us believers are desensitized by our culture that has such a heavy emphasis on grace. Please don't attack me - I am only sharing my heart, and I have prayed before I push "submit"....I respectfully disagree with those who say drinking for the Christian is just fine.

mama27 I respectfully disagree with those who say drinking for the Christian is just fine.

mama27, I would like to ask you a question, how many times have you seen a supernatural healing in person? Me personally I have never witnessed one, but I know and believe they happen. Here is my point, unless God decides to supernaturally heal or deliver us from our illnesses or bad habits after accepting him into our lives, we are still work in progress. We all must be real careful when we see Christians doing things that we may not agree with, unless you know their life story, because God may still be working on them. Matter fact he is working on all of us, "NONE" of us will be perfected until God calls us home. You said you fully disagree with those that say drinking is fine for the Christian, so are you telling me that the next day/month after someone accepts Christ in their life, that they don't fit in your world of thinking if they are still drinking? How do any of us know what is going on in anyone's life unless we have personally known this person for many years? For the record I am not condoning alcohol, matter fact if you read my post I said I personally don't drink, but I know Christians that are "work in progress" that do. Unless we are supernaturally healed or delivered immediately, we are considered work in progress, and we as Christians should not Judge these folks. Did Jesus "Judge" the woman at the well? I don't believe he did, he just told her go and sin no more. If we disagree with those who say drinking for the Christian is just fine, we should also disagree that, eating to much,spending to much,to much makeup,to much work, to much Judging, to much internet, to much exercise, is also wrong. I know you won't like this scripture, but God said it I didn't, 1 Timothy 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)Ephesians 5: 18 also refers to such a condition, that a person should avoid overusing wine to the extent that they would get drunk, it does not say a glass of wine every now and then they are wrong and will be cast into the lake of fire..

I knew I shouldn't have stepped into this....OF COURSE I AM NOT SAYING THAT!!! Of course we are ALL a work in progress. I personally have a problem with gluttony. However I am thin, and no one on earth would know it. But God knows it. I do not know HOW you got from my post that I am JUDGING ANYONE....I am NOT. I would love the social drinker, I would love the drunkard, I would love the drug abuser, I would have a harder time with it, but by God's grace I would love the porn addict, or the homosexual. Sin is sin in God's eyes. But when I read the Wilkerson articles, I felt that he was taking on a culture that has been on a slippery slope AWAY FROM HOLINESS for a long time. As well he should, and well should any Spirit-filled preacher who loves the Lord. Listen to a Keith Daniel message (I'm sorry I do not know which one) where he quotes the godliest man he ever knew (and I personally believe Keith Daniel to be one of the godliest men I have ever known)....He tells how this godly man from South Africa, Will MacFarlane is speaking. And someone who came to the meeting is standing at the back of the church and spouts out, "Is smoking wrong?". And Keith Daniel reports that this godly man who he never heard raise his voice, THUNDERED back to the man, "You KNOW it's wrong!!". Now is there a verse directly in the Bible that says, "Thou shalt not smoke?" I don't know of one. But there are principles that God gives us. And there are many verses speaking against strong drink, some of which were mentioned in the Wilkerson article. I do not have a problem with the verse you quoted because as you say, God said it. Maybe it applies to the 118 year old grandmother. But I do not think it aptly applies to social drinking.

I am sorry I spoke. I don't feel you were hearing my heart. The same thing happened to me when I spoke on the recent music thread against CCM. I was jumped on and basically called a legalist. I cannot argue my points. I have a lot of life going on right now, and I am not a theologian (who by the way, don't agree among themselves). Perhaps that is to my fault. But I KNOW what is right in my heart.

I believe it would be best if I only pray for the prayer requests that are brought up, and not comment on the issues. I unashamedly take a stand for holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Yes - we are all a work in progress. But I believe the culture has severely "dumbed down" the Christians.

mama, no harm no foul, I am not upset at you, and basically when I said you, I meant any Christian. This is just a debate and as we all know debate welcome opinions, right? I totally respect your views, and I am not Judging your views. We all, even Keith Daniel's have our personal views or opinions, but ultimately we must go with what the Word of God say's, I think we both can agree on that.

I think this might be a good scripture for this debate. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.