Evidence

Something is occuring to me more and more as I live adn there seems to be no way of really getting an answer to it. I want to throw it on the table for comments.

1)Does God heal? The obvious answer would be yes but in the same breath how many cases can be documented of miraculous healing? It isn't always enough to say 'I AM HEALED'. How many times can you deceive by such things?

2) Taking preachers at their word. I was recently listening to the sermond 'The travailing of prayer' by Mark (I forget the last name). He made mentioned of a list of circumstances where prayer seemed to do things. I asked the question to myself, this really falls under the subject of healing as well. We are only taking the preachers word for it to grow faith in our hearts. Did these things really happen? Or are they very creative stories made up to swindel our minds?

I ask this because of a class I am taking-biology. It presents evidence and they come up with a theory to explain it. I think to myself, Does this happen with christians or do we take people at their word? And how much evidence is there with what we hear that we can say for certain YES it is true?

I don't mean this post to be divisive at all. It is more of a searching heart and a balanced mine to be able to defend my faith and present the evidence that God is at work in the Earth without heresay only.

Your taking a biology class? Then you will learn how the body can heal itself through Antibodies and other various defenses, Who created the body and its defenses? :) God is still healing but I understand what you are getting at, I also would say God is much bigger than we are and doesn't have to heal according to our preconceived notions of healing, He is the healing. :)

I believe God heals but it cannot be explained by science or biology (I've been that route when I went through college too!), God created all the laws, like the law of physics but He lives outside of it. Does that make sense? Raising the dead after four days is outside of it and unexplainable by science!!

One of the most weird and crazy classes I took was "Abnormal Psychology" but it made me MORE of a believer than before! I saw pictures of the abnormal brains of schizophrenics compared to a normal brain and lots of others "abnormal" brains compared to normal brains.

DEADn, I saw for the first time that when God heals someone, He actually changes their whole cell structure and/or brain structure!!! Can science explain that? Especially when they say we cannot create any new brain cells? God can and does!

Praise His holy name!!! Wooo hooooo!
Lisa

I hear what you guys are saying but you are missing the point.
We believe God heals, we believe God saves souls among other things.
Science brings 'evidence' to the table. Christians bring stories to the table as evidence. Stories can become fables if you are not careful. Do you see where I am going with this?

Biology is a fun field when it deals with the human body but when it deals with evolution, I call it mutation, then it gets foggy but evidence is presented and an explain has to be determined.
How often is this done with christians apart from just the telling of stories? How can you back up a healing to someone beyond a story? How can we verify a story apart from the story?

You broach a very difficult subject. Does God heal? Of course He does! It would be a very small thing for Him who is the Author of life and the designer of creation. He raises the dead to life and then dwells within them. Is there a greater miracle in existence? As for what you seek, if I understand you correctly, is evidence of documented healing hopefully accompanied by other sorts of tangible proofs. I don't think you will find what you are looking for. I do believe healing miracles have occurred but just like both of the Arks, they are not seen nor found yet we believe them true. As much as we would like to see them, they remain hidden from us. It may be all the better for greater condemnation comes when the quantity of truths is increased to the disbelieving. Christ says to paraphrase that even if a dead man were to come back from the grave it would add nothing if there were no belief in what He has so voluminously given that preceeded it. You have what was alluded to earlier. You have Biology right before you. Is that not overwhelming evidence enough? If you cannot see Him in Biology you would not believe a picture provided as evidence. Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning you. It is a fact that many men have turned the origin of Biology into a system of chaotic mistakes. What lengths then would they go to with a polaroid? So the pictures of new limbs remain hidden. The evidence of blindness healed remains fully undocumented, but in faith we believe by the preponderance of evidences we have been given. However, if anyone does have a documented before and after picture of a new limb grown please post it for all to see. We would only question it to the hilt and I don't think anyone would be moved to Christ by it due to the multitude of hoaxes and lies perpetrated by unscrupulous people who might stand to profit by it.

You broach a very difficult subject. Does God heal? Of course He does! It would be a very small thing for Him who is the Author of life and the designer of creation. He raises the dead to life and then dwells within them. Is there a greatest miracle in existence? As for what you seek, if I understand you correctly, is for evidence of documented healing hopefully accompanied by other sorts of tangible proofs. I don't think you will find what you are looking for. I do believe healing miracles have occurred but just like both of the Arks, they are not seen nor found yet we believe them true. As much as we would like to see them, they remain hidden from us. It may be all the better for greater condemnation comes when the quantity of truths is increased to the disbelieving. Christ says to paraphrase that even if a dead man were to come back from the grave it would add nothing if there were no belief in what He has so voluminously given that preceeded it. You have what was alluded to earlier. You have Biology right before you. Is that not overwhelming evidence enough? If you cannot see Him in Biology you would not believe a picture provided as evidence. Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning you. It is a fact that many men have turned the origin of Biology into a system of chaotic mistakes. What lenghts then would they go to with a polaroid? So the pictures of new limbs remain hidden. The evidence of blindness healed remains fully undocumented, but in faith we believe by the preponderance of evidences we have been given. However, if anyone does have a documented before and after picture of a new limb grown please post it for all to see. We would only question it to the hilt and I don't think anyone would be moved to Christ by it due to multitude of hoaxes and lies by unscrupulous people who might profit by it.

I used healing in there as a tangible example but I am not limiting it to that. As I said in my original post listen to that sermon the preacher made references to certain circumstances to build our faith. I have heard these things before and I began to question- are these things really taken place or is the guy a huckster? Just like 'healing' preachers. Usually Christianity accepts a christian healer until we find that he has heresy in doctrine somewhere then becomes a heretic. Yet we go by faith that the healings under the ministry are real and he says they are but yet we can't see proof of a healing.

In a doctors office you end up seeing proofs of healing because of medicines involved. THe flu, cancer (chemotherapy), physical therapy for paralyzed people but shouldn't there be documents somewhere for the church?

When preachers tell stories of God working we most often have to take them at their word and trust them unless we push them for evidence. That becomes to laborsome to do many times. Yet, how many stories are told to us that might be untrue OR stretched a bit?

I ask this because I have had some of those in the biology community ask me these questions and I really didn't have an answer to it.
I remember Mike Warnke-the book 'Satan Seller' turned out to be a fraud but people bought into it then he was exposed. Do you see where I am going with it?

These are honest questions for me. I am on a sort of roller coaster ride in life.

Deadn I think it would be wise to really look at what Healing or anything your wish to discuss. We all know that Todd Bentley's "Healing" ministry doesn't have much proof of its healings however there are many many stories that have medical evidence to a healing that just blows the mind of doctors.

All of the different therapies that you listed are all designed and molded by God through man, so why give man the credit? We also can't limit God to just the instant healings with no medical evidence as "God's Healing" no we have to include ALL healing. To be a surgery you not only need sensitive touch but also a steady hand, Where do you think they get those things?

I would say if you have to distrust your pastor and his stories he tells it might be a good time to get a new pastor or church, remember a Pastor is suppose to be one of integrity. Do we have to take them at their word? probably not, but if its something you truly question then a Pastor of integrity will have evidence or at least eye witnesses that can testify with them.

At my past church there were many stories told by a man that had gone to the church for a great portion of his life, he wasn't around at the start of the church but he told many stories that someone else told him. One of which the Holy Spirit was so strong one day the fire department had to be called because the building itself looked on fire. Amazing right?!? I thought so, SO I asked one of the men that actually poured the foundation of the church and found the fire department was never really called. If you question the story Investigate, look for and ask for eye witnesses, if eye witness account isn't good enough for you then you should have a hard time believe any of the bible because our Gospels are written Eye Witness accounts of Jesus.

One of the many rules of my past church and I think a good rule of thumb is to get medically checked if you believe you have been healed before you start proclaiming you've been healed.

Deadn,

Does God heal today? I would think you would agree that He can. From your posts I sense you may be questioning modern day reports of healing.

Did you ever consider Jesus ministry of healing? Consider the time when he healed the ten lepers. After healing them he told them to go show themselves to the priests. Now why do you think he did that? What was the law concerning leprosy? Shall I tell you or do you want to look it up yourself? Maybe I will share my understanding then you can check it out yourself to see whether this is true.

In the OT the people who were infected with contagious diseases were to be isolated from the general population, they were considered unclean...To be declared clean they had to pass the approval from the priests. (This is the short of the long.) To do so, these priests had to have a knowledge of health, diseases, what they looked like, how they functioned in order to declare someone clean.

Now, Jesus healed these ten lepers and He told them to go get their healing verified by the local experts. This in no way diminished his authority but enhanced it, it confirmed it. Let us consider moderns: if a person was diagnosed with a certain malady by an expert and he comes back healed the expert will be able to discern this. It matters not whether it was through medicine or supernatural intervention, he/she can tell whether healing has occurred. This will be a bona-fide healing. It cannot be disputed.

Do these healings happen today? Yes. Just a few weeks ago a friend of mine shared how her nephew was supernaturally healed, verified by a physician. Many times we may experience healings when we never graced the doorstop of a medical office, but they cannot be verified because we never were under the care of a professional. This however, does not diminish he reality to the individual. It is a private thing between them and the LORD.

James 5 teaches how one should call the elders of the church for anointing with oil for the sick. I would guess that this process would mean the elders should have a decent knowledge of diseases so they can discern when healing occurred, much like the priests in the OT.

Does this come close to answering your questions?

This is an aside - I also believe that when prayer for healing is made, when there has been an anointing with oil in accordance with James 5, that God may choose to not heal the body. But this is another topic...

This is my understanding....

Blessings,
ginnyrose