music (debate)

Here for those that wish to continue to debate this 'issue' But I will remind you to avoid senseless arguments that end up going in circles because the arguments are based off of personal preference. Thanks

God Bless,
Matthew

What about Starfield?
What about Chris Tomlin?
What about Audio Adrenaline?

Tell me what you think, if you are familiar with their music and lyrics, their life styles, maybe even their theology?

Not familiar with Starfield but I enjoy listening to Chris Tomlin and Audio Adrenaline. I don't know much about their theology or their lifestyles but they produce Godly music that has encouraged my walk with the Lord. What are your thoughts?

Not familiar with Starfield but I enjoy listening to Chris Tomlin and Audio Adrenaline. I don't know much about their theology or their lifestyles but they produce Godly music that has encouraged my walk with the Lord. What are your thoughts?

I agree with you, even some of the harder stuff (which is what I would listen to in my younger days not so much now as I use to) but these are the types of songs that would keep conviction before me and eventually back to the Lord Jesus Christ. But somehow they are satanic works of the devil and proud and boastful. They brought humility to my heart by constantly making me face the truth.

What I find interesting is there are many points to the past of John Wesley etc. One I would point to is the Church of Christ who believe musical instruments should not be allowed in a church building because(and this is the most common reasoning)Instruments were made by men and so are evil and not glorifying to God in worship. Where does this thought come from? Well many pull it not from Scripture but from their ancestors who believed this and when instruments were first used to sing praises to God OH BOY so many stones thrown in the "Name of the Lord" on the account of religion.

hi, as i am old and used to music from my age(jazz,r&b,classical etc.)i have a severe prejudice against rap or heavy metal etc.and if asked would still not condemn the music? only eight notes with different rythms and talent;or lack. it is all learned behavior. if you go to latin america the music has a latino flair.gee wiz.jimp it is all in the message.

"i am old and used to music from my age(jazz,r&b,classical etc.)i have a severe prejudice against rap or heavy metal etc."

And if my memory serves me correctly Jazz, R&B and Classical all faced the same prejudices of their days. Many people were at first reluctant to accept the new sounds. Even Southern Gospel music faced this as many labeled it as Soulish and worldly and to connected to the secular Jazz and R&B of its time. Funny how the world works and history repeats itself many a time.

Matthew,

If it is all about lyrics, why do you not modify the sound so it would not be offensive to those who have convictions against it? Yes, it is conviction, brother. Not opinion.

I wish I were able to post something here that might help or be useful to this thread in one way or the other, but I can't. My music roots go way back into the secular world, and to be honest with you all, I have carried the same type "not lyrical" wise into my new life in Christ. I grew up on C&W being from Texas, but @59 I also was in the Hippie/Flower Child generation, so it carried me away from the C&W on into the Rock world, Back then Jesus was mentioned in a lot of songs lyrics, for example the Doobie Brothers "Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah Jesus, he's my friend; Jesus, he's my friend He took me by the hand; Led me far from this land Jesus, he's my friend". As a child that was forced to go to Church "every" Sunday, I thought this is cool, now I can listen to some good Rock that mentions Jesus and also get away from the depressing C&W stuff, and it also help me enjoy Church more, "please don't ask why" you would have had to been there and lived it, but it did. I still Love Rock music and even "some" C&W now, and to be honest with you, I don't listen to a lot of Christian tunes, but I do like Michael W. Smith and also Stryper, yea I know I am from one extreme to the other, but it's what I enjoy, it gives me the best of both worlds in my music life. Look I am just humbling myself here,and being very honest and truthful with you all, please don't pounce on me and preach to me, I know right from wrong as most all of us here probably do, it's just I am not perfected in my walk yet. I do Love the Lord more than ever and my Spiritual walk is closer than ever, but I will let God mold me and shape me as I move along in my travels not man, because I don't know ahead how he might use me, If he uses me to minister or witness to folks that Love Rock music, I have to know where they are coming from to let Jesus Christ work through me to help take them were God wants them. I love every one, as God has instructed me to do, and I am very happy that I have accepted Jesus Christ into my life many years ago, but the saddest part about my new life, is seeing how the unsaved and secular see us Christians, and I am sure you know what most of them are. Some of us are the most Judgmental folks on earth, we try and appear like we are perfect, and so self righteous, and a lot of us have forgotten were we come from, and if you need to know something just ask any Christian they have all the answers and if not they will have a bias opinion. I know a lot of you are going "WHAT!" look I run a service company, I am in the secular world everyday, and I get the feedback first hand and I am just passing it along rather you agree or not. These lyrics say it best for me "If you could see What I once was If u could go with me Back to where I started from Then, I know you would see A miracle of Love that put me in it's sweet embrace and made me what I am today just an old sinner
Saved by grace.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

I wouldn't modify the sound for your convictions because the sound of the music is staying true to my convictions. NOW if you and I were having fellowship I wouldn't say hey music would be nice and crank on Heavy Metal Christian Rock because I wouldn't want to infringe on your rights and it wouldn't be curtious to do. I would rather give up my libery around you than have my music and offend you. Just like the Gentile Christian who ate the meat offered to idols.

NOW if you decided to go to a Christian gathering knowing they may play music that was against your convictions and you went any way if they played it would be a sin against your own conviction and no one at the meeting would be in the wrong. I have a friend that is a Church of Christ goer and they believe in no instruments, in the past he has decided to come to my church who uses instruments and He doesn't get offended or upset why because its what he expected when he decided to go.

I have a deep respect for you sister and I believe there are many factors to consider, its okay that we have different convictions on this matter as long as it doesn't send disunity to the body.

Why do I listen to the style of music that I do? because for ME its relaxing and brings encouragement, correction, and conviction to my heart. It personally brings me closer to the Lord, IF it does this for me then is it wrong and ungodly? Our God is a God of Variety and it wouldn't be that big of a strech to say His People will have just as much Variety ALL Unified not necessarily in the genre of music BUT in the Person that Genre is seeking to Glorify and Bring Honor to.

.

JB1968, Narrowpath, Lasttimes, GinnyRose,whoever else is interested..

OK... so you are right. It is not about the lyrical content of a song - it is about one "style" being "Godly" and other types being "ungodly".

For example. I play the hymn "Amazing Grace" in 3/4 time and in the key of G if a guitar is used..although lots of guys will go to the key of D depending on the vocal range of the one leading the song. This MUST STOP! Half of all the , "Cheat on my wife and go get sloppy drunk" tavern songs in the world are set to the same 3/4 time and key of G or D. That proves that the hymn "Amazing Grace" can't be from God..because the lyrical content does not matter..it's about the musical style...that's what you said..right?

How much like the world must we get..it is sin..that's what you said...right?

I know for certain that perhaps 45 plus of the great hymns of the church must immediately be stopped being sung because Wesley, Luther, and many more composers simply "stole" the melody from the drunken singing songs of the day..which of course by your own admission proves they are of the devil... because the lyrical content doesn't matter..it is the "style" as you pointed out..right?

Since they were using the devils time signature in Amazing Grace (3/4) and his keys (G and D) then we MUST quit using it! We must quit using all hymns because many have a connection with that horrid ungodly style they are taken from! It's about the style REGUARDLESS OF LYRICAL CONTENT...That's what you told us..right?

In fact to be safe we better not use any hymnns because of the "style"..so many of them are written straight from the devils drunken adulterous promoting style.. better to avoid them altogether than to cause a brother to stumble.. that's what you said...right?

GinnyRose..you seem like a wonderful lady. Your posts remind me a great deal of my grandmothers way of speaking. I miss her. Anyway...you stated,

If it is all about lyrics, why do you not modify the sound so it would not be offensive to those who have convictions against it? Yes, it is conviction, brother. Not opinion.

Since it is clear that many of the hymns melodies, time signatures, and keys have been take directly from the drunken adultery promoting songs in the bars and taverns they are obviously offensive to many of us. You said that the sound should be changed so as not to be offensive to us. You will take the lead on changing those offensive and boring hymnn styles into something much more loud and rocky so that they will no longer offend us. The hymnns as they are written are quite offensive to many of us so in your own words they must be changed..right?
That is exactly what you said to do...right?

You guys are all correct..lyrical content doesn't matter.. is about the style... and we MUST be rid of this cheap drunken tavern honoring style that we sing so often.

I tried to tell some friends of mine that the style of the hymns did not matter... that the incredible lyrics of the hymnns was what made them wonderful. However...you have shown me otherwise. It is about the style. My friends said they could, "Tell in their spirit" that those hymnns were written in an evil style and if I was sensitive I could sense it to..if I was only as mature as they were. Funny...that was exactly what you said about other styles as well. Anyway...they were right as are you. These awful hymnns and their ungodly lifestyle repoducing musical styles must be stopped!

Thank you for opening my eyes to the evils of singing the hymnns in those horrid ungodly styles...I owe you much!

Wow. Go easy with the sarcasm there Solomon.

Concerning the debate at hand, here are my thoughts on it. God created mountains and valleys, snow and streams. All of these things are incredibly beautiful, but I wouldn't necessarily call them godly or holy, even though God made them. A lot of people do see them as holy and worship them. I think it's the same with music and art in general. We want to label it as godly or ungodly at first glance. Why does it have to be one or the other? For some it's only going to be background noise. For others it may be a source of wisdom in an otherwise godless existance. Still for others it is a scourge to society. The same can be said of the beach. I love the beach. I love the sun, the sand, the waves and the salty feeling on my skin on the way home. In fact, one of my favorite things when I was younger was driving home from the beach. I would roll down the windows and crank up the AC as cold as I could get it. I loved the way the warm breeze mixed with the cold AC on my salty face and arms. Then I got married and tried that with my wife and she thought I was crazy. She hated it.

I say all that to say that we feel that when we become Christians we will all be the same. We forget that God made us all different on purpose. He doesn't want us to all be the same. He wants us to love Him with all of our heart mind soul and strength. That's going to look very different for some people. For some that expression is one of excitement and intensity based on life experience. For another it is a gentle and serene sort of expression. To judge another Christian's expression of their love of God is to judge their soul. I don't think that's a great idea.

If we don't like a style of music, fine. But to label it as evil is to risk offending God. We better be real sure that a particular style isn't a sound that God planted in the person creating it. Finally, God created possums and they are ugly, however they are not evil.

Well it is actually more n response to the entries made on the music thread located here-

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37994&forum=35&79

As far as content... well it seems they are right. It is all about the musical style... not the content of the lyrics. They have made a point. A strong a valid one..as all can see. I am sure they will then apply their point in all situations. To not apply the same standard of judgement to ones personal musical preferences as with which you judge another would be....let's see now....what is that word when you do not judge your own ways in the same manner in which you judge anothers....hmmm....what is that word??

Since it is clear that many of the hymns melodies, time signatures, and keys have been take directly from the drunken adultery promoting songs in the bars and taverns

This argument has been used to justify the use of Rock music by its proponents. However, I have also been told this argument is a lie. I first read this in an article published by "Christianity Today" magazine years ago. Now if I could find it I would - I likely have it somewhere since I have over 20 years worth of CT magazines.

Solomon, may I suggest that your ire against me and others is quite alarming. It sounds as though you know it is wrong, that the Holy Spirit had convicted you of it but you spurned that conviction. Now when some of us repeat what you know in your spirit to be wrong, you get all upset.

Regardless what we say, you will have to give account as all of us will.

OK... so you are right. It is not about the lyrical content of a song - it is about one "style" being "Godly" and other types being "ungodly".

I admire you for admitting this.

Solomon, please bear with me a bit more.

Are you aware of the history of modern rock music? Do you want to know it?

Elvis Presley is considered the father of rock. He was a Pentecostal kid that learned to sing at his childhood church at Tupelo, MS - just up the road a ways from where we live. As he advanced in his music career, secular TV stations would not televise his entire body while performing because they considered his body language vulgar. This should not be surprising because "Rock and Roll" is the ghetto term for sex. And he is considered the father of it.

And Christians like to music with such evil connotations?

Amen, Ginnyrose. How about some more Scripture:

Col 3:15-17
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Eph. 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

We all know what Psalms and hymns are. I'm sure spiritual songs do not include the debasing fleshy rock music. The music itself tends to debase and not to uplift.

Here are some more scriptures:

1John 2:15-17: NASB:
15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

1Thessalonians 5:21-22 KJV
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

.

I am still amazed at the continuence of many to say that one musical style is "of the world" and that their preferred style is "Godly".

Simply answer these concerns of mine of you would be so kind.....

There have been several scriptures posted..that have no actual application to this discussion..but none the less they were posted. In a nutshell they all said to avoid looking or acting like the world. Then that is taken to mean that since they beleive all music not in their preferred style is of the world then it is evil. Well throw solid hermeneutics and exegesis of scripture out the window! But be that as it may. At least be honest enough to apply your own standard to yourselves!

In the example given of "Amazing Grace"- it is normally played in the key of G (by guitar players. sometimes D) and is written in 3/4 time. FOR A GUARANTEED FACT there are hundreds and thousands of "cheat on your wife-go throw a drunk" bar songs written in 3/4 time and the key of G. BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION THAT IS BEING LIKE THE WORLD! You can't have it both ways. Either all music stles that are played by the world should be totally avoided regardless of lyrical content... or admit that it is the content that makes the difference.

A second idea has been the lifestyle of the artists. I have seen very Godly and also some very ungodly rock, metal, screamo, you name it bands. I have also seen some very Godly and very ungodly hymn singing groups. In my personal experience of over 25 years of ministry the Southern Gospel groups were the overall most ungodly heathenistic folks I ever dealt with! Again..not all..but if put on a percentage scale the hymn singing Southern Gospel groups were far and away the most flesh serving group I had to deal with. Some we had to ban from all churches in the fellowship I serve because of their predatory nature and sexual perversion. They took teen girls out after their concerts of singing the old hymns of the church to then sexually assault those girls. Sorry... no respect from me just because they sing hymns..it was all a show. I have seen far more authentic fruit from those in the Christian contemporary/rock, etc. music field than I ever saw in the hymnn singing crowd. I then simply judged them by their fruit.

GinnyRose you stated

It sounds as though you know it is wrong, that the Holy Spirit had convicted you of it but you spurned that conviction. Now when some of us repeat what you know in your spirit to be wrong, you get all upset.

I did not enter my Christianity as a bigoted person. Thereore styles did not make me feel compelled to take a side. I could honestly judge it by its lyrical content and the fruit it bore out. You do not have that ability it seems. You judge simply by a format.

I love all styles of music. I enjoy some forms over others..but I appreciate and can enjoy them all. As a musician I find some I am naturally drawn to and am more proficient in.. but I am always wanting to learn and grow in musical areas I have not yet mastered. Wouldn't it be arrogant not to? The largest block of music on my MP3 is of Keith Green, followed by John Michael Talbot (surprised?!) I have some hours of Gregorian chant,lots of hymns, classical, and most any other style you can find that has good lyrical content and the bands have a consistent Christian testimony proven over time... I have several sermons by folks here on SI and I listen to "Revival Hymnn" probably at least once a month...but I also have screamo, chrisian rock, and christian metal of almost any flavor.

It seems you also have a limited knowledge of music history. That is not incindiary...just a pretty obvious observation. Music styles (hymns, contemporary priase/worship, Gregorian chant, Christian metal,free worship in the prophetic movement, screamo, classical, etc., etc. all have inherent traits that make them a good musical choice at particular times. For example..do you know WHY Wesley, Luther, etc. wrote as they did? IT WAS TO TEACH A TRUTH OR DOCTRINE..NORMALLY. You see much of their audience was illiterate and had no way to read a Bible even if they had one. SO..Wesley in his wisdom wrote hymns that had verses that were the main points of his message with a chorus that was the main thrust of his sermon. It was then often set in a tune familiar to the people so they could then easily learn and sing the tune and thereby remember his sermon! BRILLIANT! And that is largely why they wrote as they did at that point in history. We will often take a "rock style" worship song in our set of worship songs on Sunday and in part of that song do a bridge and break off into one of the great hymmns of the church. Our intent is to have folks focused in on Jesus..worshipping Him..and then bring in one of those doctrinal elements during that intense worship time that is in line with that song. I try to be faithful and use ALL the tools in the toolbox...not just the ones I like. After all..a hammer is a great hammer...but a lousy saw. they are all needed!

HOWEVER- That musical style of hymmns alone is EXTREMEMLY SHALLOW in terms of actual worship. Read through your hymnal. You will find that virtually NONE of them are directed to either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. A few..but very few. The last hymnal I did that survey on had less than 8% actually directed TO a member of the Trinity. They are almost exclusively hymns that either proclaim doctrinal truth or tell of someones testimony. All fine things at the right time. However, they are NOT worship directed to God in any way. THAT IS WHY the contemporary worship scene has exploded in recent years. People are LONGING for an intense and intimate experience with God. The structure of hymns simply aren't made for that to happen. They are good for their purpose... but their purpose is limited. God has a much bigger tool box that you understand.

I ask you then these questions...

1. Will you abandon "Amazing Grace" and all such hymns that use the same time signatures and keys as the aforementioned bar songs... or will you not apply the same standard to yourself that you seek to apply to others?

2. Since you believe some musical styles are "godly" and others are "satanic" then specifically and with detail please list for me the time signatures, key signatures, rythm patterns, and any nuances that are Godly reguarless of the lyrical content. It must be so or your argument can not stand.

3.Since you believe some musical styles are "godly" and others are "satanic" then specifically and with detail please list for me the time signatures, key signatures, rythm patterns, and any nuances that are ungodly reguarless of the lyrical content. It must be so or you argument won't stand.

4. You do embrace the clear Biblical mandates on worship don't you? For example Psalm 150 states,

"Praise Him with trumpet sound; praise Him with lute and harp!

"Praise him with the timbrel and dance:"

"Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals"

I may raise the hackles just a bit here...but hear me out before jumping to a conclusion. Please honestly answer these questions if you can.

I notice that the only music you seem to have approved is from a couple of hundred year period coming from European sources. You seem to have condemned any that has AfroAmerican or other ethnic roots. Is it just possible that the real source of you attacking other froms of music may be a small streak of racial prejudice. Not saying it is... but is sure has the earmaks of it at times.

Well...I will leave you to think about and answer those questions. have a great evening!

This is a very unhealthy debate,and edifies nothing, trust me it will never be resolved by either side. If your looking for a conversion, why not use your resources helping bring in some lost sheep. I would personally advise the folks that don't agree with Christian Rock, just to let it go, why? because your wasting you valuable time, if you don't condone it, just don't listen to it, really simple. Personally I like all kinds of music, but I am not wasting my time fighting over it, I will just listen to what I want, I don't need others approval and surly not their opinions. I also think it's terrible to interject scripture, because all the scriptures that I have read that's been posted, is way to vague to address this debate properly, and use Gods word to prove you right. But if you really must prove something you can't,or never will, well carry on Solders.