Blood stained hands that pray against abortion?

Do you think Ceasar was a godly man, doing the most righteous and sinless of things with the tax money that Jesus commanded to render unto him?

Just a thought.

Blood stained hands that pray against abortion?....Should we not banner the cause in our churches seeing that we are by far the largest contributors to the genocide?

Correct me if I am wrong, but is that statement clearly suggesting that if I pay taxes to a government that supports abortion, I am contributing to genocide? That my hands are (blood stained) as I pray to my God? Because I pay taxes? Oh Lord Jesus, that we would be careful when we utter words on your behalf. Oh Jesus that we might ask you to search us and examine our words even before we utter them. Knowing that we must give account for every word spoken. Father forgive us, for we are continually missing the mark.

A few years ago there was an email being circulated by some Christian groups, which stated that the heads of a well known company belonged to the church of satan and paid tithes to that church. The email then went on to state that if any Christian bought any product that was made by this particular company, they would be guilty of paying tithes to the church of satan and would be judged by God. Such a statement, similar to the proposition in this post, on the surface will give an appearance of spirituality, but in truth is not supported by the Scriptures. It is in fact an attempt to put a yoke upon a believer that was not required by their Lord.

I was one of the believers who dismissed such a proposition as an attempt to put the child of God under a yoke that is not supported by the Scriptures.

Daniel served under several kings, who were responsible for the destruction and oppression of his people, his homeland, and put the rest of the survivors into slavery. Genocide the likes of which we have never seen. Yet he served them as unto the Lord, and yes paid tribute, with respect and reverence, but kept himself (personally) pure and continued to serve the Lord. It was when the law of the land came into direct contradiction to his (personal walk) with his Lord, and tried to prevent him (personally) from doing something that was part of his (personal) faith "praying", he disobeyed that Law and faced the consequences and was delivered by his God whom he (personally knew). Moses mother disobeyed the law in Egypt (which was genocide) and saved her son. It was a personal issue.

"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw [he was] a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment."Hebrews 11:23

She did not go about opposing Pharaoh or failing to pay him respect, or tribute for that matter, because his administration carried out and supported genocide. She saved her son.

To suggest that a Christian is guilty of contributing to genocide if he or she pays their taxes is not Scriptural. To suggest that a Christian's hands are "Blood Stained" if he obeys Christ and pays his taxes is.....the words escape me. The idea even borders on saying that our prayer life will be hindered because we're praying with "Blood Stained" hands if we pay our taxes to a government that supports abortion. Despite the many philosophical and spiritually sounding arguments, it has no basis in scripture, but rather legalism.

Should we oppose abortion, yes a thousand times yes! Should we warn people about God's judgement on those who commit abortion, most definitely. But we are responsible to obey the ones that have the rule over us, as long as they don't tell us to do something (personally) that violates our (personal) faith. I have stressed on the (personal) for reasons that I will hope are obvious. If you do not pay your taxes, you're disobeying Christ, not Caesar. Caesar will answer to Christ for what he does with it. Just as the kings in Daniel's day answered to God.

When the day comes, and I believe it will, in which the law of the land says we should no longer speak in the name of our Saviour Jesus, or Christianity is made to be illegal, or the law asks us to do something (personally) that is in direct violation of God's requirement of us, then we are free to disobey that law and as the apostle Peter said "We (personal) aught to obey God, rather than man." Till then I urge us Christians to stay focussed on the things we should be focussed on in these last days, that is seeking the face of Christ, praying for revival, and praying that others come to know Him, and do not attempt to put upon our Christian brothers and sisters any other yoke that sounds good on the surface, but has no biblical foundation and was not required of us by or Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

I am not saying that we should not obey Christ and give unto Caesar. I am curious as to whether that command considered exceptions and whether we should question how we interpret it?

Indeed it has been a practice of those who wish to justify their position, to seek to twist, and question the Scriptures. Then go on to paint pictures and create scenarios that in their minds would create "exceptions" that would release them from obeying the direct command of the Lord in the Scriptures. Indeed it was the serpent in the garden that asked of Eve "Did God really say?"

It is interesting that you ignored many of the points that the other posters made and again resorted to creating your scenarios. This is because you cannot support your position by the Scriptures and that is clear.

If you are proposing that the "Death Toll" of the genocide in Daniel's day is the main measuring factor as deciding weather or not it was in fact "the likes of which we have never seen" I believe you would be in error. Babylon goes down in history as a nation that committed the greatest of atrocities on peoples that they conquered. Men, women and children. People were tortured, dismembered, maimed. To suggest that because the "death toll" wasn't as "much" as the infants that are killed today by abortion makes it not "as bad" would be a gross error.

Also if you are considering the issue of the size of the population in Daniel's day or the "Death Toll" as being the main focus of the Daniel reference, you have again missed the point. But I suspect that was deliberate as you deliberately wish to ignore, and to question, Christ's clear command. The focus of the reference was Daniel's response to, and obedience to the ones who had the rule over him and were directly responsible for the "genocide" of his people. He was obedient, respectful, reverent to the kings he served under, and obeyed their laws, including paying of tribute. He only refused to obey a law that was passed, that was orchestrated to directly prevent him from exercising his faith in his God. The three Hebrew boys were asked to do something that was in direct violation of their personal faith, which was worshipping an idol. They again disobeyed that law, and again even in that were very respectful, and faced the consequences and were delivered mightily by God. If you (personally) consider paying your taxes as being in direct opposition to your faith, by all means stop paying taxes. But you will have to twist the Scriptures, as you are attempting to do, to justify your position. Christ command about Caesar is not the only portion in the Scriptures that instructs us when it comes to paying taxes and obeying those that have the rule over us.

1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Romans 13:1-7

The Scripture makes no distinction on weather the rulers are godly or ungodly. Weather they use the taxes for godly purposes or not. They will give account to God, as will you.

In your post you clearly suggested that Christians as a whole who pay their taxes, are guilty of "Blood" and have "Blood Stained" hands and our prayer life is hindered because we pay taxes to an administration that supports abortion. You cannot support that position by Scriptures. That is clear. As one poster said, such a position only seeks to laden a believer with guilt.

I have learned that when someone clearly seeks to hold a position that the Scriptures do not support, not even the clear presentation of the same scriptures will be enough to convince them that their position is wrong. So I do not rely on what I or any of the other posters have presented to you as the thing that will convince you that you are in error. It is the Spirit of God, and only God's Spirit that will convict and convince you of what the Scriptures teach and what it is that Christ requires. It is the Spirit of God also that will prevent that guilt trap from laying hold on the heart and mind of the week and struggling child of God, seeking to do their Lord's will.

God have mercy on us.

Lylewise,

I am in total agreement with you that it is very disturbing what takes place in this world, which "lies in the power of the Evil One". I am reminded that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. Also, when Jesus walked the earth, He never became political, or tried to change men's hearts or stop criminial behaviour by the Roman and Herodian leaders using the "arm of the flesh". He truly was in the midst of a wicked and perverse generation yet was not of it (in the world but not of it).

This is not to minimize your burden and I am sure the burden of many.

I think Jesus Christ would be (and in fact is) doing the same thing today that He did when He walked the earth. He is reaching out to lost men by His Spirit by His offer of reconciliation and love. There is a day coming when this offer will no longer be viable, but it is not here yet. He still offers forgiveness and beckons "whosoever will, to come".

We are not sent by Him to execute judgment, justice and vengeance. For He says, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay".

We are sent to die. To die to ourselves, our own way of thinking, our own devices and our own solutions.

Having His Spirit, I cannot fathom Him leading His people today to right every horrific wrong that is taking place on this planet. To do that, we would have to use the devices of the world, since they don't understand the ways of the Spirit. One little rebellion leads to more, because each "victory" will embolden the Christians to think that the arm of the flesh is working. Of course, they will have convinced themselves that it is by the Spirit that they are accomplishing such activities of protesting, taking up arms, and yes ultimately, they will consider insurrection. History is a great educator.

You see what a little rebellion will lead to?

May I gently suggest that you pick up the weapons of the Spirit and the Armor of God? Fast and pray for those that burden your heart the most. God is giving you that burden, but not the solution you aspire to. I would also like to mention that wickedness is going to abound more and more, even as it was in the days of Noah.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Do you not think Noah was grieved as you are today? What were Noah's actions and activity? Obedience to the Lord. You would have looked at him and thought that he was not concerned with the world around him. That he was not socially involved with correcting the injustices and evil that abounded. Do you not think that infants were offered up in his time, also? It was a wicked and evil generation that he lived in.

The Lord's answer was that He will deal with the ungodly but for Noah, He provided an Ark. An escape from the flood of wickedness by the flood of God's judgement.

Lylewise, God has provided and Ark for you and I to be in during this FLOOD of wickedness that is taking place on earth.

All we do and are must be done from within the Ark (Jesus). You will not survive outside of Jesus (Ark).

If you are outside the Ark, you will try to figure out ways to clean up the world and prevent the flood of wickedness but it won't be according to God's way. Apart from Him you can do nothing.

Because you are outside the Ark, you don't want the evil to overtake you.

This may seem careless and uncaring if you are reading this from a social activist and natural man perspective.

Read this:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38151&forum=45

But this is God's message to us.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

By Noah's very life of trusting in God, he condemned the world. It is the same with us. By our Godly lives, looking to Him and trusting in Him we condemn that which is done in this world.

2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

2Co 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

We look foolish, we look unconcerned, and we look unmerciful to the world and to other "christians", because we are not social activists.

Noah may have seemed this way to the religious ones of his time that were cavorting with the world.

Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

It is my continual prayer that God helps me to stay focused in these last and closing days. To recognize my own sinfulness and to realize my need for His continued grace. You have an obvious burden for the despicable act of abortion, and you are right to have that burden. But do not suppose that there are not others who have the same burden, and other burdens as well, who choose to deal with them according to God's directive.

It is with this in mind I reply to this thread as my goal is not to win a discussion, but to present the truth, as I believe the bible teaches, and to address what I consider to be the misuse of the Scriptures. Least someone who comes across this thread not be given the opportunity to get an untainted perspective and be swept away.

Please know my initial post was more in question form than statement. I meant to point no finger at anyone,

This seems to be an attempt at back peddling on your part. The title of your post as well as the words used in it are unmistakably clear. Your question and post, assumes that the hands are blood stained. You knew exactly the effect you wanted to achieve. If you did not intend to appear to point fingers, or to accuse Christians who pay their taxes as having "Blood Stained" hands, you clearly would have chosen a different approach.

I can assure all that there is no scripture whether it be from Romans 13 or Mathew 22 or from Genesis to Revelation that i do not affirm as true and believe to be God's very word. My post was an attempt to ask questions regarding the application of scriptural directive not to question it's validity...Obviously I failed in that effort.

I don't think anyone suggested that you did not consider Scripture to be valid, what I did say is that you are creating scenarios that in your mind would, by your own words create "exceptions" that would free you from obeying what the Scriptures, that you say you affirm, clearly teach us that we should do. In other words "I know the Scriptures says thus, and I believe it....but....what about so and so...". We must be subject to God's word, not the other way around. We cannot find an interpretation that suits or seems to support our position. That is the same as twisting the scriptures.

One must agree however that just the mere affirmation of scripture is nothing in itself if there is no evidence by faith in it's execution. That could be by prayer as well as some participation in that which one would be directed by the voice of God occupying the believer. As well, the whole of scripture is more revealing than just a few verses taken from it.

You were given several portions of Scripture that you have deliberately chosen not to respond to. The other posters asked you several pertinent questions, based on said Scriptures, that you again did not respond to. Why is that? Instead you again go to your scenarios, and the abortion figures to hammer home your main proposal. Which is , so that we don't forget, that Christians should stop paying taxes or else be guilty of the "Blood" of the innocent children.

Indeed you are so correct in stating that the Child of God cannot just make an affirmation of the Scriptures. Indeed the child of God is directed by God's Spirit and God's voice to execute his faith in the Scriptures. The voice of God does direct the believer you are absolutely correct. So is it your suggestion, that God's voice will direct Him not to do something that the Scriptures says he should do. Would the voice of God contradict what the Word of God teaches? How then are we to know if it is God's voice speaking to us. Not by searching the same Scriptures and making sure that what we are hearing lines up with what the Scriptures teach? You are again making an attempt to bypass the Scriptures in order to justify what is in your heart to do, because you realize the Scriptures do not support what you are proposing. The execution of my faith in the Scriptures, is my obedience to do what it clearly says.

Did not the psalmist, Jeremiah, and Daniel connect themselves to the people who did evil even though their hands may not have been stained? Might they have realized in their humanity and imperfection that there was some guilt no matter how distant that proved them a participant? The smallest inaction that defines omission maybe? Regardless they did not leave themselves out of the call for repentance, even being God's prophets.

You see, this is why I am having serious difficulty with your entire position. As Pastor Voddie Baucham would say, your "slight of hand" use of the Scriptures. In your post, you are clearly proposing, that Christians who pay their taxes to an administration that supports abortion, have "Blood Stained" hands as a direct result of paying their taxes to such an administration. That is the reason why they would be guilty or part of the transgression, is because they pay their taxes. By extension you are clearly suggesting, that if we stop paying taxes we will NOT have "Blood Stained" hands because we are not giving to or supporting, an administration that supports abortion. Is this not what you are proposing? Or will you back peddle on that as well?

Here you use the reference of Daniel praying on behalf of his people and including himself in the transgressions of his people. Do you even realize that this is not the same thing? Do you even realize, that if you stop paying your taxes and in your mind clear yourself as not being part of the "slaughter", from Daniel's perspective you would still have to include yourself in the transgression? Do you even see that? So weather you pay taxes, or don't pay taxes as you propose, you will still have to go to God and ask Him to have mercy on all including yourself as being part of the transgression. So the paying of taxes is not the issue, paying taxes is not what includes you in the transgression. You include yourself in the transgression because you are part of your people. This is according to the reference you used. Do you even see that?

If these murders were held out in public I am almost certain we would take up arms, yes even maybe stop paying taxes to stop it. That however is speculation as we seem to be more than willing to continue in this live and let live mentality while the blood of orphans enters our sewers. Do we not think that Christ who entered the temple and disturbed commerce would not also enter the abortion clinic and take up the cause of His little ones?

Again, your "Slight of Hand" use of the scriptures. You are here suggesting, that Christ's actions in driving out the money changers in the temple, would be the same as we "stopping commerce" by not paying our taxes, and marching into abortion clinics and stopping the abortions from taking place. This type of teaching is not only dangerous, it's not biblical. It is this type of teaching that breathes militant Christians who dress in camouflage, reject governmental authority and the rule of law, and who kill abortion doctors. All the while justifying themselves in their own minds, that they are doing God's will. Christ's purpose for His church is not to drive out evil in this world. It is to be His witness in an evil generation. Christ's church is not to be His instrument of judgement upon sinful men. Your reference to "take up arms" is especially troubling.

Christ actions in the temple, were in connection with His "Father's House". This is key here don't brush over it. The people had turned His "Father's House" into a place for profit. The zeal of His Father's House had eaten Him up according to the Scriptures. It was not in relation to Rome's government, or a brothel in Rome, or the sinful practices in Rome, or anything else. It was His Father's House and it was in the fulfilment of Scripture. You are attempting to use this portion of Scripture, to justify marching into an abortion clinic and stopping paying taxes? You are suggesting that Christ's purpose in the temple was to stop commerce, so we should stop paying taxes?

Why stop at abortion clinics? Do you not know, that abortion is just as sinful as homosexuality, or pornography, or prostitution or adultery, or false religion in God's eyes? God judged two entire sites because of homosexuality. Do you think He considers homosexuality a lesser sin than abortion? According to your reasoning, and this is to illustrate the danger of your teaching, Lets march into the gay bars then, lets burn down the liquor stores, lets make a whip of small chords and beat the prostitutes off the street corners. Do you see where you are going with this teaching? Scripture does not support this type of action.

You seem to be suggesting that a country is an evil place because it performs abortions and by extension if abortions were to stop, the country will be a "Better" place. Do you not see that God's judgement is upon all nations on the earth for their many sinful practices? You have a burden for the scourge of abortion, and my heart goes out to you on that, but do not let your burden lead you astray from what God mandates and God's methods. Even if we were successful in putting a stop to all the wickedness that we could think of in our land, on it's best day, God's judgement upon our land will still be justified, because men's hearts would still be against God. What we can do, and what many have been doing faithfully for many many years, is praying without ceasing for our various nations, and presenting the Gospel of Christ to every creature, that His love might reach some, and His Spirit might grant them repentance and faith so that they might receive the new birth and be saved. But I suppose you would consider this a "live and let live" mentality and "inaction".

No one disagrees, or is minimizing the seriousness of the disturbing blood letting taking place where abortion is concerned, but please understand that all other atrocities in our land are just as filthy in God's eyes, and we as Christians must be very careful how we conduct ourselves, as we live for God and present Christ to fallen men.

God have mercy on your church.

*Update*

When you take something that the government is "giving" you, you always give something else up.

When the American church took the US Government's tax exemption, it gave up a portion of it's freedom of speech.

*End of Update*

Hi Lylewise,

Do you know about Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (German pronunciation: [ˈdiːtʁɪç ˈboːnhœfɐ]; February 4, 1906 – April 9, 1945) was a German Lutheran pastor, theologian and martyr. He was also a participant in the German resistance movement against Nazism and a founding member of the Confessing Church. His involvement in plans by members of the Abwehr (the German Military Intelligence Office) to assassinate Adolf Hitler resulted in his arrest in April 1943 and his subsequent execution by hanging in April 1945, 23 days before the Nazis' surrender. His view of Christianity's role in the secular world has become very influential.[1] (Wikipedia)

Dietrich must have counted the cost and realized there are worse things than perishing. Like standing by and saying nothing. Of course, I don't think you will perish if you stop paying taxes. Most people don't perish, they just get a new place to live for awhile.

Would Christ who's zeal consumed Him for His Father's house not also be consumed by the same zeal for the temples not made by human hands; The fatherless/orphans who Christ seemed so adamant to ask others to care for? So what would Christ do were He to walk by an abortion mill?

We don't have to hypothesize about "what would Jesus do", because He lives in us and if we are led by the Spirit, and if indeed He speaks to us by His Word and His Spirit, we know what He would do.

I just want to encourage you that if He is leading you and speaking to you just speak it boldly and proclaim it. If the Lord is putting something on your heart, don't take a poll. Take the lead and do it. Obey Him.

But, for me personally, I have to hear from the Lord first. I appreciate all that you are saying and who knows, maybe we are all paralyzed. God will have to show us this, too. But, I can never do anything unless the Lord confirms in my spirit, first. I can't just follow everything men say. I can consider what you say and pray. Thanks for bringing this up.

All the best,
777

Would Christ who's zeal consumed Him for His Father's house not also be consumed by the same zeal for the temples not made by human hands;

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1 Corinthians 6:19

The Scriptures clearly teach that the temples not made with hands are believers in whom the Spirit of God dwells. Not the innocent little infants in abortion clinics. This is yet another slight of hand use of the Scriptures, and basically describes the entire trend of this type of teaching.

So much has been presented to you, by way of Scripture, by those who replied to your initial post, yet you choose continually to ignore these Scriptures and look for extra-biblical support for your position which is, least we forget or become distracted by the "what if's" and "what would Jesus do's";

(That a Christian should not pay his/her taxes to an administration that supports abortion, because their hands will be stained with the blood of the children killed by abortion.)

The arguments you present, depend on human reasoning and emotion for their weight, rather than the clear teaching of the Scriptures.

May Trinidad and Tobago continue to keep abortion illegal.

You say this, as though it is to Trinidad and Tobago's credit or merit that abortion is illegal. Never mind the drugs, gangs, prostitution, homosexuality, corruption in government, the murder rate that climbs every year, domestic violence, sexual immorality and corruption within the professing church. "But Hey..., once abortion stays illegal, Trinidad and Tobago is good to go." This seems to be your reasoning. I say again, even if these things were absent, Trinidad and Tobago, and every other nation will still be under the judgement of God, because men's hearts are still against God. So as for me, my focus in these last days is not to become militant and stamp out all of societies ills, but to present the clear message of the Gospel so that men's hearts might be changed by the Spirit of God. If I were to utter a "may" type prayer, it would be thus:

May God have mercy upon Trinidad and Tobago and every other nation under heaven, and grant to men the gift of Repentance from Sin, and also grant men the gift of Faith in Jesus Christ. That men might come to know God and His Only Son Jesus Christ whom He has sent, to the salvation of their souls.

As a believer in Jesus Christ, a chief of sinners saved by Grace, and a prodigal son who has known the love and forgiveness of His Father, I must always be aware of the wiles of the enemy, and of the deceitfulness of sin. Sin will maximise, and take occasion by any opportunity it finds to bring out the old man and cause the child of God to stumble. These opportunities will be found everywhere the flesh has an opportunity to shine. Even in religious "discussion", that at the end of the day only elevate the flesh and human arguments and reasoning, rather than edify. Even if I am presenting truth, yet doing it in the flesh, and my goal is to "win" or "come out on top" in even a "religious discussion", God is not glorified.

It is because I am extremely concious of this, that I will make this my last post in this thread. I believe the truth has been adequately presented by all other posters in this thread, and up to this point has not been and indeed cannot be refuted. To take this any further, would be, in my opinion, to give the flesh an opportunity to rear it's ugly head, even though it be well dressed up.

As I stated before, it is only the Spirit of the Living God, that will take that truth and make it real to the hearer of the same. Even if that hearer is His child.

Even so come Lord Jesus.

So rest assured my brother that my battlefield will be on the same front as yours with Christ as King.

That's good Lylewise, because this world is going to get worse and worse.

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

There is such evil coming that no one can even imagine it. Just like no one could imagine that there would be an earthquake, tsunami and nuclear meltdown, consecutively.

It will pale in comparison to what you see now, to what happened in WW II or the 50 million plus murdered in the Inquisition during the centuries that spanned the Dark Ages.

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There are things coming that are going to terrify us.
Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Your post is a good reminder of the desensitizing taking place around us.

Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The Apostasy is here and will continue.

Buckle your spiritual seatbelts.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.