VALUE VOTERS: VISITING or VIGILANT ???

Shalom ... I have made several postings under "Letter to Dr. James Dobson" which encouage the new termed "Value Voters" do not just VISIT during the Presidential election cycle, but to remain VIGILANT. I trust that opening this new thread will be aceptable, as my comments are not focused on a letter to Dr. Dobson, but to Believers who are Value Voters. Perhaps one of the Thread Moderators will capture those others "Value Voters" posting and move them here (is that possible, Greg?). Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel

Shalom, Greg ... Since this thread is under the Forum "Lounge" and by your Administrative definition is a place of discussion that does not "fit" in any other section (like Intercession & Current Events) it seems to me that the encouraging and equipping of American VALUED VOTERS to not just VISIT during a Presidential election cycle but remain VIGILANT is appropriate under this thread. Prayer is clearly apart of being VIGILANT, but I believe you understand that I am suggesting strategic alliances and leadership development for VALUED VOTERS. I mentioned in another posting that the display of The Ten Commandments requires VALUED VOTERS to be VIGILANT. I think you know that the display of The Ten Commandments is a part of the "values" that Dr. Dobson's ministries advocate for strongly. I believe, Greg, that yu may have also read my seasoned response to the person who was also wisely counseled by others to "ratchet down the rhetoric." An objective in this VALUED VOTERS: VISITING or VIGILANT? thread is for the righteous to reign and the represented to rejoice. Are we in harmony here? Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukelsermonindex wrote:which encouage the new termed "Value Voters" do not just VISIT during the Presidential election cycle, but to remain VIGILANTHello brother Eukel, I think I mentioned in the dobson thread about my belief towards the attention necessary for us as believers to be spent on the President and political happenings.I see as you have found there is a forum section called:Intercession and Current EventsWhere current events are posted to mostly gather saints to a spirit of prayer regarding those issues. I am not sure exactly on your intentions in this thread perhaps you can qualify your statements further.

Hi Guys. I don't understand what you're trying to talk about either, and I'm a voting American. Dian.

Valued Voters to be Vigilant appears to be a play off of the title given by the media to christian conservative voters "values voters".He's saying that the fights not over just because the election is.

Shalom, Jeremy ... Ahhhh, how precious it is when understanding is bridged. Actually, I am amazed at times when peoples "goyim" background, cultural sensitivity or lack of seasoning or understanding presents a barrier. You, obviously "get it." I perhaps assumed far too much background in some of these other younger "Brothers/Sisters" of the faith that they too would "get it." Yet it is early in the bridge building - relationship stage, so we will keep working hard, as best we can, to to make the vision clear, so that even a runner "gets it." Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel

Shalom, Greg ... Please also see my recent posting under INTERCESSION & CURRENT EVENTS, the thread for INJUNCTION to INTERCEDE for ISRAEL. Toward the end of that most recent posting I briefly, perhaps not adequately, begin to demonstrate that the three major threads that I am currently participating in (VALUED VOTERS: VISITING or VIGILANT?; ISRAEL INTERCEDE INJUNCTION, and RISING REVIVAL RIVERS) are intertwined threads of my heart, mind and resources. I expect to add another facet in disciple-making through the thread, "MESSIAH's MESSAGES in the MOEDIM."Greg, you ask, as the Administrator of Sermon Index concerned with "quality", "what I want to particularly accomplish through this discussion?"That is a fair question. I have yet to see that specific question raised in other threads but I have not also read every posting in every thread either. However, let me attempt to answer your "quality" question with the understanding that every thread grows and may not flow in a linear fashion. Conversational threads mostly meander with each new participants posting. Your careful selection of moderators, as you know well, helps to keep a dialogue ontrack (even though that "track" may be illdefined, prematurely defined or takes a surprisingly but interestingly and meaningful track unforseen by the initial inspiration. (PAUSE) Greg, I will have to return to these thoughts later. I will ask for you to pray for me (though you hardly know me). I am needing to minister right now to a hurting man who needs a tangible representative of GOD's love. Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel

RabbiEukel wrote:Shalom, Jeremy ... Ahhhh, how precious it is when understanding is bridged. Actually, I am amazed at times when peoples "goyim" background, cultural sensitivity or lack of seasoning or understanding presents a barrier. You, obviously "get it." I perhaps assumed far too much background in some of these other younger "Brothers/Sisters" of the faith that they too would "get it." Yet it is early in the bridge building - relationship stage, so we will keep working hard, as best we can, to to make the vision clear, so that even a runner "gets it." Love and Prayers, Rabbi EukelI discern the fruits of division. Listen to James:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. James 1:19 So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; 20 for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God. James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. Listen again: Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.What is the nature of the gift that RabbiEukel has to offer?In ChristJeff

Shalom ...I appreciate the prayers of those who read my last posting under this thread and hear the injunction to pray from RUACH HaKODESH. In the immediacy of the moment I did not have the time to post that invitation to pray with me under the more appropriate thread for prayer. I trust that Greg and Moderators will extend grace in that commission.However, even the point above serves as an illustration for the response I had begun in answering the "quality question" posed, "what I want to accomplish through this discussion?"Every thread grows (some more healthy than others). Conversational threads are not linear, that is moving in logical sequence. Initial conversational threads may in fact spawn additional threads - depending on the seasoning and backgrounds of those guiding sermonindex, those "spawns" may or may not be viewed favorably. Perhaps Greg at times feels like he is an electronic pastor overseeing a vast electronic congregation. Just a thought here.Having prefaced, again, my response to the "quality question" let me say simply: I want to encourage others (I suppose it would true to say the 'others' here is United States of America citizens, since I do not have as intimate knowledge of the culture war values ragin in other nations) who are now termed "Value Voters" to be inspired, informed and instructed through the invitation of this thread to remain vigilant in the culture war in America. As one of the members of the sermonindex community commented earlier, just because the Presidential election is over, Believers need to stay in the battle. (Jeremy, as you can tell that is not a direct quote, but trust I recaptured your quick understanding that is deeply appreciated). This is not about partisan politics, but is about the Believer recognizing, reflecting and rejoicing inthe GOD-given opportunities to make-disciples through the participation of America's unique republic form of goverance.Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel

I appreciate the transliterated Hebrew, at least for the beauty of many of the words, and more so for the increased insight often gained from knowledge of the original language (I'm in my 3rd semester of Biblical Hebrew, so I can typically follow along even though I know very little).In any case I think the more significant difficulty I have with understanding your point, Dr. Eukel, is that you don't seem to have quite articulated it yet.When you mention that values (or valued, as you say) voters should not merely visit during the elections but remain vigilant between them, I assume you mean (at least partly) that we should remain active in politics at all times in terms of "keeping our ears to the ground" for news of relevant political developments (new legislation up for vote, etc) and committing appropriate amounts of time and resources to fighting the political battles surrounding those developments. If that was your point, simply saying "stay active in politics between elections" would have sufficed.As for your postings about the injunction to intercede for Israel, I presume you're reminding that we should pray for peace in Jerusalem and for the modern-day descendants of Jacob (though I wonder what percentage of the present Israelis are truly "Israelites" in that sense), and perhaps carrying it further saying we should also commit money and time (beyond prayer time) and such to the cause of preserving the modern Israeli nation state and helping them achieve greater security (which would include victory in a number of current and possibly future military conflicts). And, of course, this would be combined with the above in that we should (at least according to you) be vigilant about any political developments regarding our nation's involvement with Israel. I'm not sure I've quite got your point right here, though.I haven't gone through all your posts, but have I understood what you're advocating?

That's about what i get to brother Keith ... nice summary!

Shalom, Keith ... Thank you for the opportunity to clarify simply.1. Intentionally I used the word "valued" instead of the media-made label "values." My point? Voters who vote "values" are "valued"!2. Valued voters voting "values" historically "visit" during a Presidential election cyle and are MIA- missing in action during the off years. Recognizing that historical fact is my simple point here. It sets up point three.3. Valued voters voting "values" who do not visit but remain "vigilant" are the Valued Voters were want to encourage, mobilize, instruct, inspire, inform and invite.Strategic alliances locally to pray, stay informed and move into action is sufficient for most Valued Voters. Some will sense GOD's Spirit to prompt them to take on increased activity and leadership.The Ten Commandments Command Center is one national grassroots organization which may come along side of Valued Voters to focus their energy and have a clear objective that is measurable and attainable. Success breeds success. Furthermore it is a national grassroots organization that is intentional about disciple-making.There you have it Keith. Thanks.Love and Prayers,Rabbi EukelI admit the "V" aliteration becomes overwhelming, but it does capture attention.

I live within walking distance of Harry S. Truman's home and presidentian library here in Independence, MO. One of the things that always goes through my mind is that he was the first world leader to recognize Israel as a sovereign nation. In those days even the Russian's supported a Jewish State. I have to agree with Leonard Ravinhill when he said that if America ceases to support Israel you can dig America's grave. Most people I talk to believe America should support Israel, but we are here in the 'Bible Belt' and people consider the Jews "God's Chosen People" in spite of the fact that most have rejected Christ. This does not mean they are 'saved', it means they are set apart to Him in a way that is unique. Not that everything they do is legit or God honoring; for they, as a nation, have rejected their Messiah in the midst of becoming a nation. There is and will always be a 'remnant.' the God that knows the end from the beginning wrote: this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days saith the Lord..." (Hebrews 10:16) They are plagued right now with locusts in the Negev (southern Israel). So what is going on here? God is not through with Israel. Recall that Jesus promised the Twelve that they would judge the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). In Moses' time, there were twelve, each set over the tribe to which he belonged (See Numbers 1:44 'leaders' from their father's house). The 12 disciples could not belong to twelve separate tribes either, as Peter and Andrew and James and John were brethren. The listing in Revelation 7 does not exactly correspond to the traditional 12 Tribes. Yet, for all that, the 12 Tribes are mentioned even in the end of the book (Revelation 21:12). No matter whether you take a futurist, partial preterist, or preterist view of the Book of the Revelation, Chapter 21 is a future event.

RabbiEukel wrote:The Ten Commandments Command Center is one national grassroots organization which may come along side of Valued Voters to focus their energy and have a clear objective that is measurable and attainable.Are you a consultant for either of these organizations? If so, would you please identify the financial sources behind this "grassroots organization."?In ChristJeff

Br. Robert,I agree with you that there still remains a special covenant between His people Israel and Himself. Yet I do not agree with your statement:I have to agree with Leonard Ravinhill when he said that if America ceases to support Israel you can dig America's grave. There will come a time when most will be deceived. Listen to a Scriptural account of this time.Dan. 11:20 “There shall arise in his place one who imposes taxes on the glorious kingdom; but within a few days he shall be destroyed, but not in anger or in battle. 21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. 22 With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant. 23 And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people. 24 He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time. Dan. 11:25 “He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him. 26 Yes, those who eat of the portion of his delicacies shall destroy him; his army shall be swept away, and many shall fall down slain. 27 Both these kings’ hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time. 28 While returning to his land with great riches, his heart shall be moved against the holy covenant; so he shall do damage and return to his own land. Dan. 11:29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. Dan. 11:36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain." In the last days this evil king will take power through intrigue and deception. This king will overcome the people of the covenant for a time. Only the love of the truth will save the believer from falling into this deception.The fact that Israel exists today, does not command that we blindly come to her aid. What examples are we given in Scripture? We are given examples where God blesses those who bless His people Israel. We are also given examples where Israel seeks the aid of Egypt to prevent other nations from overcoming her. In these examples, God is against those who come to her aid. These are the beginning of perilous times, only the love of the truth will bring the darkness of deception to light. In ChristJeff

Shalom, Jeff ... As a Messianic Jewish Rabbi I would say you have quoted Scripture that most closely resembles in our generation the rise and fall of Isalm that worships Baal Allah. It is clear that pluralism has caused many Believers to fall asleep ("visit") out of ignorance of Scripture (less than 15% of American Evangelicals have a daily habit of reading Scripture and those who do have daily devotions the vast majority spend less than 15 minutes a day allowing their heart, mind and strength (resources, is the direct Hebrew translation) to be "strangely warmed" by The Truth of GOD's Spirit. Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel