What standard should we hold the leaders and minsters of the Church to?

E

elanham Apr 5, 2011

What is the standard that we as the body of Christ should hold those who are leaders and ministers to? Should the standard be their anointing or their ability to communicate biblical truths? Should the standard be a pious face and expression in the public? Or should the standard be the 'blamelessness' that was set forth Paul in the Apostolic scriputres?

I heard of a minister who confessed that he and another female preacher developed a frienship. The minister only confessed this after pictures were released showing him walking in and out of a hotel in Rome while holding hands with this female preacher. This famous preacher sais the reason why he developed this relationship with this woman was because they shared common ground. He said he was lonely and that the pressures of the healing ministry was at fault. Not himself. Though he and his wife are still married he does not see developing a relationship with another woman as sin. His only mistake, he said was inviting her to Rome.

What pains me here is that there is no ackowledgement of sin. And if there is no acknowledgement of sin there surely be no true repentace. This preacher went on to say he was only human and that is where he left it. After these statements the audience erupted into applause affirming the preachers logic. The female preacher with whom he developed the relationship also got a standing ovation when she returned to her church. She stated that she was stronger than ever and that she had gotten her bounce back.

The man said that he still loves his wife yet he cant be in the same house with her. This is one of the worse cases of double talk I have heard. He wouldnt dare come out and say 'My wife is the reason for my problems'. So he pretties it up first by saying I love my wife. The question that the Church needs to answer is what is the standard of that kind of love and where does that love originate. Love that will move you to further stab at your wife with whom you are already alientated by tripping off to another country with another woman on your arm is no love at all, but treachery.

The most sinister thing about all of this is what is being communicated to the wider body of Christ. If a leader who is seeing 'mighty miracles' can enter into an adulterous situation whether it is emotional adultery or physical adultery, and pass that act of disregard of the Holiness off as a symtom of being human, what then will be the standard of those who are exulting in these ministries.

Both this man and woman with whom he has developed a relationship with are going to go on 'serving' the Lord. As if this is only a minor infraction that will not have reverberations across the body of Christ. Who are the ones who are to hold ministers accountable but the Church. And if that attempt is misconstrued as being judgemental by others so be it. We have to be willing to pay that price for the sake of the integrity of the ministry.

Remember Jesus commended the Church in Revelations for testing those who said they were Apostles who were not. These dear saints were not afraid that their assesment of these so called Apostles would bring upon their heads the title of judge by other Christians. Their allegiance was to Truth and not their reputation. May we hold those who purport to be leaders of the Church to the standard given at the first knowing that we will suffer and be called stone throwers, holier than thou and judges.

A

Areadymind Apr 5, 2011

I was just sitting here in my office taking a break from my homework to read the word for a bit, and I am in 1 Samuel chapter 12 where there is a great little vignette about how Samuel stands before the children of Israel, for the first six verses, Samuel asks the children if he had ever done anything to defraud them. They all responded in oath that Samuel had never done anything wrong, he had never stolen from them in any way. Samuel then goes on to reiterate the general history of Israel after receiving the oath of his moral integrity before he prophesies to the people about their new governmental status change because they elected to have a king over them. Samuel warns them that they and the king are completely accountable to God in their activity.

Moral of the story? For Samuel to be credible as a prophet, he had to have moral integrity. It is like programming code for software, where when you declare something to first be a true statement, then something else can occur. Example: If X is true then Z can happen.

If Samuel was moral in his dealings with his fellows, then he could minister the dire warnings of prophecy.

If the people rather, celebrate the immorality of their leaders, one can only wonder at the spiritual vacuity which will commence in such environments. This was a grieving post Elenham.

L

learjet Apr 5, 2011

The standard is not abstract or ambiguous, here it is:

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. -1 Timothy 3:1-7

The person (both people) do not fall into the above standard for leadership. I know who you are talking about and I still say they are not fit for leadership under any circumstances.

Let there be no doubt about it, they are not serving the Lord. They may however be serving a jesus that they have made up, bar-jesus or something but they are not serving the King of kings and the Lord of lords, that much is clear.

Peace,
Earl J

sermonindex Apr 5, 2011

Thanking GOD that both Brothers who replied here, have used the Word of GOD alone. How thirsty we are for just that.
Grateful! Thank you both!

What I've noticed over the last 6 years or so is that, many have gone from being Angry Watchmen to the other extreme and more and more away from the Pure Word of GOD Alone in it's entirety -- leaning from first, one half of GOD's WORD of 'His expectations of us only' - to now, more of a 'our expectations from or of GOD alone'.

Whenever the two sides shall meet and become one message, or the 'both/and' from the whole counsel of His Word alone is found & preached - then we'll see something this world has never seen since the first Church of the Apostles.

To this end we pray - in the Name of The Word of GOD Himself. Amen!

G

ginnyrose Apr 5, 2011

Well said, Elan.

Romans 1:32 NASB is still applicable:
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

This is sobering - and has far reaching implications.

I

InLove Apr 6, 2011

Hello.

This is something a deal with a lot, but I would like to go deeper in this subject. I understand your talking about a famous minister, but I want to deal into the not so wrong in plan view. Such as, I bounce around churches looking for a paster that is just seeking God so much you can see it in his messages. Often I find myself disappointed with these water downed, uplifting messages. Not that uplifting messages are wrong, but if thats all there is to it with no substance than what good is it?

Now here is where I pose the question. How do we stand against this? I want to stand up in these churches and say "look do you not see that this is going to get you no where. We are drifting from Christ." I could go on, but what do you guys think about this?

A

Areadymind Apr 6, 2011

We must always act in a way that is pleasing to God In Love. Nothing done outside the chamber of faith, hope, and love will ever bear the consuming fire of God. It will all suffer loss. We must represent him well...be filled with Him, do what he is leading. Anything else can be a fabrication of our vain imaginations.

What I am trying to say is that there is no Pat answer to this kind of question. We can see how different Apostles acted in different ways depending on the situation, and we can also see how Jesus responded to various confrontations. Ultimately whatever Jesus did, he did by faith in his Father, thus His actions were always a responsiveness to the Holy Spirits guidance in response to the Father.

This is why in Galatians 6:1 it says: Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

The key phrase in this passage is "You who are spiritual." The whole church at Galatia was addressed here in this epistle, but Paul makes the distinction that some of them were spiritual, and they could address transgression with meekness.

If these kinds of transgressions are dealt with in a carnal fashion, then it is like pouring gasoline on a brush fire. You will only make the situation worse. I say all this to say, first seek what it means to be a spiritual brother who has a spirit of meekness. This being accomplished, be lead by the Spirit, who is a living breathing helpful comforting being. He is not a principle, he is not a method. He is to be known and followed in Power, as a demonstration of the Power of God!

sermonindex Apr 7, 2011

Dear InLove ~ I'm not sure if these are Churches that you would like to attend, but maybe making a private appointment with the pastor is the only way or only proper way.

If you were a member, you could try that first and if you feel that he's rejected what you've said, you could ask to speak to the elders/deacons and if that doesn't work, I'd say that's when one would have to leave that Church, if the problem is that grievious to your spirit, to stay and do anything other than that would be wrong.

I do believe that GOD sends prophets into Churches at times, but as we've all learned from Art Katz, just for one, that if the Pastor and whomever doesn't like the message, the prophet will never be welcomed there again.

The responsibility of what is said in a fellowship "In the Name of The LORD" is first the shepherd's responibility and he will stand the most accountable before GOD unless He repents and next the elders and next the people themselves, for not discerning things against His Word, that they themselves should know. We're all responsible to study and know His Word and sound doctrine for ourselves and these people who sit under any man, are without excuse if he preaches error or doesn't live a Godly lifestyle.

There are times that GOD will lead us into the wilderness, away from "doing church" so that we can become established in His Word, in learning to know His Voice above all other voices, to see where we ourselves truly stand spiritually, when left alone, and trust Him to lead us into all truth.
After those times of only being at His feet with prayers that He'd expose all within ourselves will He then free us to find another fellowship.
He does this because He loves us and doesn't want us to be deceived, either about ourselves or about others and what they teach.
Thank GOD, He's The Good Shepherd

I

InLove Apr 7, 2011

Thank you for the comments. I seem to have been blinded by my own zeal and hurt by what I see. Thanks so much for the good leading.

sermonindex Apr 7, 2011

Dear InLove, I surely do understand what you mean by being "hurt" by leaders of ministries. Not personally, but as a congregation or group.
The hardest experience that we as a group went through was when a friend of ours, being a Pastor, started a store front church and we were so excited about it. He was an Asst Pastor at another Church that we all attended before pioneering this work in another town, so we were used to hearing him preach at that 'mother' church and always looked forward to when he'd get the pulpit, besides he was our friend - as an equal.

All was going well at this new location but then one night he sort of lost it. It was like all of his beliefs changed just from that morning service - which was excellent.
That evening service ended that ministry. It wasn't long after that we had heard that he had changed his entire beliefs. Still Christian, but he did a 180 in just a matter of hours. We were devastated.
Can you picture someone that you were friends with, ate with, looked forward to hearing him preach suddenly doing such a shift, that it shook up the bunch of us who followed him there? We just kept telling each other, "Well, he's young. Maybe he'll get it together." ... He never did and his wife left him, even though he wasn't immoral but his new beliefs threw not only his church people's minds upside down but his wife's as well. Very traumatic and had a major impact on us back then.
I'd like to say that our lesson was learned at that time, but it wasn't. You always hope that the man that's behind the pulpit will remain stable, but there's no telling when any one of them will go off from what they initially taught.

We need to have our feet firmly placed in Christ Jesus and His Word alone and all the more as the days go by - we've noticed.
Grievious times. Most of us can empathise with you.

sermonindex Apr 7, 2011

Inlove, if I may, before you go:

When we get saved we come into this brand new world and someone hands us a big book and says "read it". "Everything you need is in there". And we begin reading this big book and somewhere along the journey we get a bit frustrated and just want someone to give us 20 steps. "Just tell me what the 20 steps are, that's all I need". The temptation for all of us is to take a shortcut after learning a little knowledge and I have found that this is part of human nature and we all do it.

Have you ever apprenticed with a real Craftsman? Most of us are probably very good at one thing. That one thing that we have spent our life perfecting. Our "Craft". Right? Even if it is cooking or sewing. Whatever the Craft may be.

Spend a week with a Craftsman that needs help in getting a big order of whatever it is that he makes, out the door. As he tries to teach you what he knows in such a short time. You begin to get frustrated and begin to wonder if he could just give you 20 steps to follow. You don't know if you will meet the deadline unless he can boil it down to 20 steps.

There is a verse in Scripture that reads:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Maybe you see where I am going here.

In the Christian life there are no shortcuts and legalism is boiling our walk down to 20 steps. That is the letter and we want to know what to do in every situation. That is why we have different groups today that will invite you to their conference and give you a binder on what to do in every situation. People try to "CAN" their version of Christianity. "If you do these 20 steps, you will walk with God, correctly and live a successful Christian life".

But, the Spirit giveth life. Walking by the Spirit, takes a lot more than a checklist handed to you by an "expert". It takes an investment of your entire life, all your heart, your mind and your soul, and then walking out the Word on your own and learning by trial and error to hear His voice. Walking with THE EXPERT, everyday.

That's why no Christian can tell another Christian EXACTLY how to walk their walk out with God.

Even Jesus, showed us how dependent He was on His Father's voice.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

You ask, "how do we stand against this?"

I will tell you only in general terms, that our Christian walk is more about what WE STAND FOR than what WE STAND AGAINST. You will wear yourself out STANDING AGAINST THINGS in this world. Rest in Him and stand FOR Christ.

And, I will just mention something else. As you learn to hear the Holy Spirit's voice, if He tells you to go and do something, you won't have to consult with man on what you should say. The Holy Spirit, will also give you the words.

I guess I would mention one last thing. Study Jesus. Study His life and pray to Him as you study to be a "Craftsman".

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Spend time, yes in His Word and prayer. Learn to understand the living Word not the dead letter.

We can all relate to your feelings of grief over what is happening today, but there is no canned answer for what a man should do that will pertain to ALL situations.

Why? Because we are not LEADERLESS and because we are not LEADERLESS, it is not our place to give each other "marching orders". We walk with God. He calls the shots, He leads us and directs our footsteps. He tells us what we should say or not say.

Well, I don't know if that helps, but one of our big problems since Galatia, or even Simon the Sorcerer, nay since Adam, is that men want shortcuts, they want 20 steps. We have all gone down this road and can understand where you are coming from.

Seek Him, Know Him, and Rest in Him. If He wants you to do something or say something, He will make sure that He communicates that to you. And you will hear Him if the posture of heart is right.

Be ready at all times to receive your marching orders from Him and not man. Your relationship is with Him, not with the person that can give you the Dummy's Guide to Walking With God. (No insult towards you or anyone else intended).

God bless you on your journey.

A777

A

Areadymind Apr 7, 2011

Amen 777, well said. To add to that when Jude tells us to earnestly contend for the faith he tells us to save some with compassion and save some with fear. How do you know when to use what? Only the Spirit's guidance and his gift of discernment will allow us to land on the right side of the equation. (Jude 22-23)

sermonindex Apr 7, 2011

***UPDATED***

And the Spirit's guidance is not something we obtain from the LETTER.

To add to what I was saying:

I was thinking today about how modern Christendom tries to codify the Christian walk. Just go to any Bible Bookstore and you will see hundreds and hundreds of books on "How to do this or that". If only those poor Saints in the 1st century had all the "How to" manuals that we had.

My point: You cannot codify a relationship, which is what walking with God is all about.

Definition of Codification: The process of forming a legal code. To arrange or systematize.

There are many people today that have codified just about everything there is that pertains to Christianity and walking with God. How to raise kids, how to educate them, to to pick a mate, how to live a happy married life, how to be single and content, how to witness, how to pray, how to seek God, how to submit to "authorities", how to submit to your husband, how to be a good church member, how to be a pastor, worship leader, etc, etc.

And we hang onto every word of what our "experts" and scholars and doctors of theology say. WE REALLY DON'T NEED THE SPIRIT'S GUIDANCE, because we have CODIFIED everything. This is what the Pharisees did in Jesus' time.

Let's face it. Maintaining relationships are hard. And, opening up a reference book or reading someone's sermon is so much more easier than spending time in prayer with God. I mean, "I'm saved. I got my ticket punched 25 years ago, and since then I have been living off of all the good christian teaching that I have had."

Do you see the problem? We have forsaken the most important element in Christianity. The personal voice of the Holy Spirit to our hearts. The ever present voice of the Lord in our life (mostly because there are some things we don't want to hear from Him) for a system of codification and "leaders" that will explain everything to us. And leaders that don't speak the truth as God does, I might add.

What we have done today with our codification of Christianity is really created Spiritual Stepford Wives or Darth Vader Clones. Stepford wives walk around like robots and clones are just that, clones. They all do Darth's bidding.

It is the Stepford wives and Clones that are the ones that are the real danger in Christendom, because they DO LIVE BY THE LETTER and not by the Spirit, their personal religious leader can stir them up into a frenzy and get them to easily do his bidding with just the right sermon, making them think they are doing the Lord's bidding. (RCC and ISLAM are not the only ones that have their clones).

Basically, there are very few people walking by the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, truly interacting with God and hearing Him. They don't follow man and are able to process new spiritual information without checking what anyone else is doing. For them, it is enough to to see what Jesus is doing.

The Clones and Stepford wives all huddle together in the safe confines of "spiritual group think". And unfortunately, God can no more talk to them than YOU can talk to an ANT.

How in the world do you talk to robots and clones?

How do you convince CLONES of ANYTHING (if you're not Darth).

And that is one reason that you will most likely not have any success walking into someone's church and proclaiming the truth. Truth is relative today in Christendom. Look at all the factions and versions of Christianity. The sheep will look at you with glazed over eyes as you stand up in their church and proclaim "truth". To be sure, they will listen to you and then when you are finished speaking, they will turn around to see what their LEADER says. They will study him closely to see what cues they should take from him.

That my friends, is called an unholy alliance of the heart. Looking to man for direction, when God could be talking directly to them.

Jer 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Well, you can't do much can you?

I cannot tell you how many Christians I run into that quote some Christian religious figure on just about any topic that comes up, rather than quote the Word of God.

DARTH VADER'S CLONES

How serious is it really that men set themselves up as your SOURCE? Simply put, God does not filter His personal word to you through another man. God does not want a relationship with you through a proxy, or the other way around. He will only maintain a relationship with you through His Son, Jesus Christ, the Living Word.

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

A777

sermonindex Apr 8, 2011

Luke.9:59 And Jesus said unto another, Follow Me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my Father.
60 But Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead; but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Jesus just told this man to abandon his family, and go preach the kingdom of God.

Mark.5:18 And when He was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed Him that he might be with Him.
19 Howbeit, Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

Now, Jesus has told this man to go home and preach to his friends, even though this man requested that he be allowed to go with Jesus in His travels.

We are ALL commanded to LOVE GOD, HATE EVIL, and BELIEVE JESUS.

This is where things get difficult in the Christian walk and we need to be delivered from the influence of men (especially our own influence, and the propensity of our heart towards reigious activity).

Beyond Loving God, Hating Evil and Believing Jesus, you have to "hear" from God for yourself.

If we arbitrarily assign Bible verses to ourselves because they suit our ambitions when in fact God is drawing us to that Bible verse to speak to us, then we will not be doing the perfect will of God, will we? We have ulterior motives for the words in the Bible.

There is a good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God (Rom. 12:2) for EACH of us.

The Holy Ghost said, separate Me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them (Acts 13:2).

The Apostles didn't try to figure out who to send by examining the Scriptures: The Holy Ghost said!

The Holy Ghost is STILL SAYING: but are we LISTENING?

Why is it that some people don't want to believe that The Holy Ghost still SPEAKS to individuals with specific instructions? Could it be that WE DON'T WANT to hear what the Holy Ghost is saying to us? Maybe, we really don't want God to interfere with our "ambitions" or "religion".

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

We will not come to Jesus out of fear that He may tell US to do something that we don't want to do.

We USE the BIBLE like it is some "magic book" to improve our lifestyles in this world, reciting phrases like they are some kind of incantation according to whatever we desire or even need at the time.

Yet, we will reject any possibility that God may have some CRYSTAL CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS for us.

WE have our "codified" and "systematized" religion. We call them "Biblical principles" and we don't really need any guidance from God apart from what is written. We blame so much on the Holy Ghost, today. Of course most people see it as "giving credit" to the Holy Ghost. "The Holy Ghost told me this, or that". Really?

Our codification of Scripture and "living by Biblical principles" is nothing more than another brand of Law Keeping.

That same Bible from which we get our "Principles" says that the NEW COVENANT has replaced LAW KEEPING.

...for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life (2 Cor.3:6).

Heb.12:25 See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him that spake on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven.

We have a Bible today, that contains the things that He spake on earth. But, the WILL OF GOD for each of us individually is what He speaks from heaven to us PERSONALLY. If you deny God the RIGHT and the ABILITY to speak to you PERSONALLY, or PRETEND that God has abandoned you to "figure out" what to do with your life, you will end up CONDEMNED by your own "Biblical" principles.

This is why we see people that think they have been saved for years and then they have this "Spiritual Identity Crisis" one day about whether or not they are saved. That is because they just got a glimpse of the fact that God is far from them, because of their own brand of New Testamen Law Keeping. Simply put: Religion and not Relationship.

There are always unhappy consequences for living according to "Biblical Principles" apart from the personal guidance and voice of God in your life. If you do this, you really have done nothing more than "become a law unto yourself".

Think about it, you are really "REFUSING HIM THAT SPEAKETH FROM HEAVEN" under the PRETENSE of "living by Biblical Principles". Consequently, you are GUILTY of either ignoring or speaking against The Holy Ghost.

How can you conclude the "the perfect will of God" for your life when you have replaced a RELATIONSHIP with God with the practice of religion? We are not authorized to do this.

GOD CAN MAKE HIMSELF HEARD, WE JUST DON'T WANT TO LISTEN.

1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

A777