Repentance and baptism-salvation

I was in a discussion with a man at work about salvation. He began picking my brain by asking me what salvation was. I told it it was believing in the Gospel of Jesus, repenting and being baptized. He then focused on the baptism thing.
I know why he did this, he belongs to the church of Christ denomination and so there is agenda with it as a result.

Anyway, he focused on certain scriptures where it was said 'so and so believed and was baptized........for the remission of sins..' I told him that baptism itself doesn't save it, it is an outward work of an inside thing. He said there is nowhere in the bible that it states that. We only focused on scriptures that be brung up which was Mark 16 and some in the book of Acts. His emphasis on this was that without baptism you cannot be saved. I could not prove to him then that that wasn't true. It did get me thinking about it.

Can anyone add to this? btw, we don't argue over it. If I find my conversation getting to that point I stop it and walk away because the dialogue will be unproductive.

Thanks
John

@ DEADn

Did you ask him if the penitant thief on the cross was baptized?

therick

I did bring that up but he didn't want to hear that. He kept going back to what Jesus said and what those who beleived did after they believed-they were baptized.

I told him that it wasn't baptism that saved his soul but he said you cannot have one without the other.
I am going to do a little study on this myself. There is something there that almost doesn't seem right but I don't know what it is.

Today I read an article from VOM about a group of North Korean christian who were visited by a pastor. They said they had waited years for someone to come and baptize them. THis supports the book of Acts but my question is if you lack baptism does it mean your soul is still lost? I don't believe it does but what does the bible say? My opinion doesn't count on this matter unless I can back it up.

Anonymous777

Yes, yes, yes!!!
I am thinking that the only problem this guy might have is that this comes from the book of Romans vs the 4 gospels and the book of Acts. He goes back to what Jesus said about believing.

THat verse in Mark was brough up and I actually brought that up as well that belief is mentioned but it says nothing about condemnation without baptism.

This will be a fun conversation of learning.

Isn't there a difference between inner and outward baptism? One is the work of God's Spirit, the other an outward symbolism. Inner baptism takes place upon conversion by salvation by grace through faith alone.

Is Jesus ultimately talking about inner baptism here in John 3? I want to be careful, but i think this is true.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

OT Reference of the work of regeneration

Eze 36:25 I (God) will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Is not inner baptism the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, when a person places saving faith in Jesus Christ, in all that He is, His righteousness, blood, propitiation,life death and resurrection, Prophet, Priest, King all that He is. This work changes the heart, it makes new, cleanses, washes. Signifys the death of self and the new life of Christ.

I definately believe a christian should be outwardly baptized as well but it isn't the saving factor. Anyone can pour water on a person, but on the Holy Spirit can make a dead, sinful heart alive and pure! I don't know why anyone who has been saved wouldn't want to be outwardly baptized as a symbol of what has happened in the soul. But I also know that there are many who have be outwardly baptized who live just like the world.

Therick

I hear what you are saying and I agree. The issue here is not baptism by itself. It is being baptised after a person believes. The moment a person believes but for whatever reason he never got baptized, does God still save his soul even though he never followed through in baptism? Can you have one without the other or do both depend upon each other?

oh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I heard a brother who had revelation on this scripture, it's not about baptism at all. At first I didn't understand what he was saying but the more that I studied it and prayed about the revelation, the more that I learned that it was true.

When a woman goes into labor, her water breaks and the baby is born thus 'born of water'.

When a man is born again, he is born again in the Spirit and regenerated. If you reread what Jesus said, along with what He said to the thief on the cross it is the only way that it don't contradict each other.

This put an end to all of the contradictions regarding baptism for me, I was really thankful that he took the time to explain it so that I could gain an understanding.

I have two family members who are COC. A few things I have gathered from our conversations:

They do consider baptism a necessity for salvation. At baptism there is the imparting of the H.S. into the life of the believer.

On the other hand their understanding of being born again is purely more of an agreement of truths in scripture. This is not relegated only to the COC but to men in just about every church there is (the majority)(knowledge without conversion). There are those who affirm truths and try to live rightly but sadly apart from spiritual rebirth.

The H.S. is bound to the pages!

If you were to talk of regeneration you would see their eyes glaze over because their salvation is by knowledge and good works. They may not admit it but if one truly studies what they profess their is no testimony apart from a cleaning up of the self and a greater attendence to their church and the reading of scripture. Not bad in itself but also not salvific.

You will talk of doctrines always directed by them, and never partake of the love of Christ in your conversations. (my experience)

They believe man innocent from birth and corrupted by experience in the world.

Forgive me if my take on some of these things are not totally accurate, but I have not made it my life's work to study the COC. These are mere observations. Study without life, prayer without life, fellowship without life. Like the Mormans some things about them seem wholesome but where is the life, the love, and the excitement?

One of their great goals is to bring men to their knowledge but it is knowledge without life. It is the most sad of estates, to have the truth within your grasp and to know something about it, but to never experience it internally.

Toward the end of "What think ye of Christ" Tozer's sinking ship analogy speaks to this so well. It is salvation by intellect which is no salvation at all.

lylewise

Yes, I agree with your words. A while back I did some studies on different christian groups to see what they belief systems were. CoC was one of them.

My experience with this man was just as you said, it wasn't necessarily an Holy experience, it is agenda. I say thing becuase he was insitant on 'certain' scriptures to show his point. His next agenda is who is the true church. Usually this ia a cult type of attitude.

To counteract his agenda scriptures must be show of what salvation is and the fellowship that is with it and not just stay to the formula of believe and be baptized.

I can tell you for my personal observation of the man that he doesn't live in a state of gratefulness. He complains alot about his job. Most people know he is a big believer in God but many times his actions aren't that different from anybody else who seems disgruntled about work.

I told this man that when you examine the scripture it is wrong to just take a scripture as well you. got ask the interrogative questions to find out the real meaning and he jumped up to agree with that. He is only focused right now on those who were saved in the bible, what did they do-----the believed and were baptized. Can't have one without the other.

These things are fun to discuss as long as the discussion doesn't get flesh and pride involved. It is nice when the Holy Spirit 2 hearst together as kin in the Spirt as well.

I heard a brother who had revelation on this scripture, it's not about baptism at all. At first I didn't understand what he was saying but the more that I studied it and prayed about the revelation, the more that I learned that it was true.
When a woman goes into labor, her water breaks and the baby is born thus 'born of water'.

When a man is born again, he is born again in the Spirit and regenerated. If you reread what Jesus said, along with what He said to the thief on the cross it is the only way that it don't contradict each other.

---- I accepted this at one time as well because it seemed to make sense but is this what the 'born of water' is referring to?

I don't think a true testimony from one who has come out of this would be much different from one who has come out of Judaism, Mormonism, JW's, or lifeless churchism.

You will talk of doctrines always directed by them, and never partake of the love of Christ in your conversations. (my experience)

Lyle,

Precious brother, this has been my experience as well, sadly.

Additionally, I've noticed that if a person is argumentative it's fruitless to even talk to them. The Holy Spirit impressed on my heart a long time ago the point that we cannot 'debate someone into salvation' so I don't waste the precious minutes that God gave me on Earth arguing with them... :-)

In the end all I accomplished was losing my peace, now I just keep my peace and quit talking to them about doctrine. Unless the Holy Spirit convicts them, all of my arguing is for nothing. :-)

Peace to you!

@ DEADn

does God still save his soul even though he never followed through in baptism? Can you have one without the other or do both depend upon each other?

I would completely agree with you that physical baptism is not saving at all, only the regeneration of God by the Spirit is saving to the soul. And that is a truth that has been so forgotten and unpreached causing untold damage :(

However I do believe that any genuine christian will have a desire to be physically baptized with water when they are given assurance of their salvation by God's Spirit. The thief on the cross and new converts who die before they are baptized outwardly will see Jesus in Paradise absolutely. But why would any believer linger for a long time on purpose if they have the opportunity to be baptized? I see it an outward symbol of an inner change and what follower of Jesus wouldn't want to express that? It would seem to me that outward baptism follows the inner baptism because it is a fruit of it. As all good deeds and fruits produced in a christian's life are rooted in free grace so is physical baptism is only legit by depending soley upon the inward, saving baptism of the Spirit.

Just like many people trust in their own works and righteousness instead of Christ, many people trust in the fact that they once were baptized rather than did I become a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Just thoughts, What to you all think?

btw what is CoC??

DEADn: It is not so important that you be able to dispute with this man or refute his arguments. The old saying, "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" is very true. What is important is that you know the truth of the Word for yourself and are fully convinced of it.

One of the best scriptures dealing with true salvation is the 6th chapter of the book of Romans.

Rom 6:3-11 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not talking about the rite of water baptism, but is talking about the reality of which water baptism is a picture. This is the true baptism into the death of Christ and the true resurrection into newness of life. It is the reality of this death and resurrection that constitutes the rebirth and that makes us truly alive unto God through Christ Jesus. It is this reality that gives us victory over sin through the grace of God. We are to reckon ourselves dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God.

I have found that often this reality is so impressed upon the heart of man during the rite of baptism that people are changed forever and never the same after being baptized in water. Water baptism is in this sense much more than just an outward sign of an inward work. There can be and usually is a realization in the heart of man of the reality of salvation through this act. This is why it is, I believe, vitally important that we follow Christ in water baptism. But the picture of the reality, as powerful as it may be, cannot be used as a substitute for the reality itself. Otherwise we have simply taken a public bath. The reality must already be present for the picture to have full effect upon the heart of a believer.

By all means be baptized in water, but not so that you might be saved. Rather because you ARE saved.

COC = Church of Christ :-)

I may be able to help on this, I studied quite a lot on this topic because I have a friend that is COC and while we don't always agree we can agree we both need Christ Jesus.

Baptism in the simpliest sense means immersed, I agree with Learjet on this and found in studying "born of water" was not refering to baptism. Christ Jesus is contrasting the two being Born in the Flesh (Natural) to being Born in the Spirit (SuperNatural/Spiritual). When we are born again we are baptised/Immersed in the SPirit of Christ, and how are we born again? By faith and believing in Christ, Not of works but by grace you have been saved lest any man should boast. I will also say the Spirit Christ baptises us in is according to His Spirit which is one of Holiness and Love. When we read and they were baptising people in Acts, we can look at it as They were immersing the people that believed in Christ Love as Christ Immersed them in His Love. Also there are ZERO records of Christ water baptising ANYONE.

Yet another thing, Repentance is not a work of Salvation but a Work of Christ in You as soon as you believe the Good News. Your mind will just change as a result and in turn so will your lifestyle change. Ask your friend how he was Born Again, and you will find he will say many things to list off what he did. Did you know there is no record of the disciples being baptised other than Spiritual ones? What did they do to received this? Believed in Christ! Everything else follows suit as Christ begins to Work in you.

From my experience speaking with my friend COC are quite stubborn in theology and doctrine but hey who isn't? :) Keep at it as long as the conversation is profitable but also don't waste time running around the malberry bush. Hope this makes sense and is helpful.

mguldner

Very good post bud!

Good point on the disciples, it doesn't say that were baptized but does it matter? I will ask the guy about his salvation and share how it came to me also.

I also agree that people like him and his church are probably going to be set in their ways, after all, his 'real' agenda is that of the CoC teaching but he will not acknowlege it as that unless on accept the CoC as coming from the beginning.

Good stuff!