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A Red Herring, "The Readability of the KJV"

sermonindex Apr 15, 2011

The chief justification of every new Bible version published is the "READABILITY LIE".

The Facts. . .

We “scientifically and grammatically” compared the ESV to the archaic, hard-to-understand King James Bible.
The Comparative Readability of the Authorized Version, by D.A. Waite, Jr.

Note: To prove and validate our results. Anyone with a PC, a Bible Program, and WordPerfect can easily (in less than 30 minutes) duplicate the following tests.

Utilizing Quickverse Bible software, we copied the complete New Testament text of the King James Bible and the ESV into text files. With no modifications, no editing, but exactly as they came from Quickverse, we opened the KJB and the ESV New Testament text files in Corel Wordperfect. We then simply performed the Grammar checking function within WordPerfect.

Note: The WordPerfect Grammar checking function uses the authoritative and industry-standard Flesch-Kincaid readability scale formulas. Rudolf Flesch is the pioneer of Readability studies and author of several readability books, including the best-selling "Why Johnny Can’t Read". Without question, Dr. Flesch is the recognized authority in this discipline.

And what was the result? The King James Bible literally “blew the doors off” the ESV! The following verifiable scientific results do not lie.


DESCRIPTION ......................................KJB.. ESV
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level (Lower Easier to Read) 4.32 8.22
Sentence Complexity (Lower Easier to Read) .........29 ..61
Vocabulary Complexity (Lower Easier to Read) ........2 ..10
Short Sentences (Higher Easier to Read) .........10342 3441
Simple Sentences (Higher Easier to Read) .........5728 2301
Big Words (Lower Easier to Read) ................7020 13478
Average Words per Sentence (Lower Easier to Read)8.78 18.82


As you can see from our easy to verify results, the readability statistics of the much aligned "hard-to-understand" King James Bible clearly knocks the ESV out of the park!


The Bible for Today published an interesting and revealing book titled, The Comparative Readability of the Authorized Version, by D.A. Waite, Jr. Using computer readability software (Grammatik 4.0, Grammatik 5.0, Word for Windows) Mr. Waite, spent hundreds of hours, lasting over three years, analyzing every word in the King James Bible, the American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New American Standard Version (NASV), the New International Version (NIV), the New King James Version (NKJV) and the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV).


The Comparative Readability of the Authorized Version is an exhaustive and serious study. It contains very detailed tables, charts, documentation, analysis of every conceivable readability tests known. The King James Bible outscored the new versions in virtually every test.


Some of Mr. Waite’s analysis:


"According to the F-K [Flesch-Kincaid] formula 74.3% of the books [in the KJV] are on or below the sixth grade level, and 94% are on or below the seventh grade level! . . . And the FRE [Flesch Reading Ease] rated 97% of the KJV books as Fairly Easy or Easy! These were all first place statistics!"
(D.A. Waite Jr, The Comparative Readability of the Authorized Version, p. 80)


Mr. Waite summarizes his extensive analysis:


"If any of these seven versions is authorized to boast about its success in these rigorous readability contests, it is the Authorized Version. [KJV]. If any has the right to flaunt the crown of victory, it is the KING James Bible."
(Ibid, p. 80)


Dr. Rudolf Flesch’s book, The Art of Plain Talk, he makes the following noteworthy statement about the King James Bible:


"The best example of very easy prose (about 20 affixes per 100 words) is the King James Version of the Bible: . . ."
(Rudolf Flesch, The Art of Plain Talk, p. 43)


Several times in his book, Dr. Flesch praises the King James Bible for its ease of reading. And may I remind you, this is from the leading authority on the subject.

Do you want examples?

www av1611.org/kjv/kjveasy.html

A777


T
That-guy0010 Apr 15, 2011

That is a very interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what version do you prefer and do you use a hard copy of the bible or do you have a smart phone or i pod that you have a bible app on. I ask this not to ridicule you or anything, I am just curious.

sermonindex Apr 15, 2011

I have everything that you mentioned.

I prefer the easiest one to read. KJV

The KJV is the best TEEN BIBLE to read.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
KJV, 2 Corinthians 3:12

As a fitting comparison, notice the NKJV and the NIV (as do the other new versions) lack the "plainness of speech".

NKJV
Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech;

NIV
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.

The national bestseller, The Story of English, writes of the simplicity of the King James Bible:

"The King James Bible was published in the year Shakespeare began work on his last play, The Tempest. Both the play and the Bible are masterpieces of English, but there is one crucial difference between them. Whereas Shakespeare ransacked the lexicon, the King James Bible employs a bare 8000 words—God’s teaching in homely English for everyman." (Robert McCrum, William Cran, and Robert MacNeil, The Story of English, p. 113)

The Norton Anthology of Literature, selected the King James Bible as one of the finest examples of writing style in existence. (cited in New Age Bible Versions, p. 212)

The Story of English crowns the King James Bible as, "probably the single most influential book ever published in the English language." (Robert McCrum, William Cran, and Robert MacNeil, The Story of English, p. 109)

One of the amazing personalities of the King James Bible is it’s poetic beauty. Nothing ever penned in the English language can match it’s sound and rhythm. For a work of it’s volume and serious subject matter – the poetic splendor defies human logic. The very sound of reading of the King James Bible bears the resemble of a music concerto. It’s timbre grabs you, as it’s melody sings God’s word. What an amazing book!

It’s worth noting the emphasis the King James translators placed, not only on the readable text of the King James Bible, but also it’s sound. Before the King James Bible was published and after the initial translation work was completed, a re-working took place, The Story of English describes this unique process, "they were to go through the text, re-working it so that it would not only read better but sound better, a quality for which it became famous throughout the English-speaking world." (Robert McCrum, William Cran, and Robert MacNeil, The Story of English, p. 112)

The words of Romans 10:17-18 comes ringing through:

Romans 10:17-18, KJV:

17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Notice how the NIV completely loses this melody in the "sound" of the "words". It’s now simply a message and a voice.

NIV, Romans 10:17:

17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
18 "But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

There is a wonder and amazement at the majestic words of the King James Bible. They literally capture you with their beauty and awe: Former President Ronald Reagan, during one of his famous radio addresses, spoke on the God News for Modern Man Bible in comparison to the King James Bible. Mr. Reagan describes the difference:

"The sponsors of the ‘Good News’ version boast that their bible is as readable as the daily paper—and so it is. But do readers of the daily news find themselves moved to wonder, ‘at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth’"?
(Reagan In His Own Voice, Cd Audio, Disk 4, Track 2)
(Reagan In His own Hand, p. 409-411)

If the new versions are so much "easier to understand and read" — why is it that according to surveys by Barna Research of people who read their Bible on a daily basis, "The King James Version is more likely to be the Bible read during the week than is the NIV by a 5:1 ratio."(Barna Research, The Bible survey.

Why do people, including teenagers, ACTUALLY read the King James Bible FAR more than any other Bible?


A777

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Apr 15, 2011

I studied at the university level for more than eight years and I will be the first to admit that I STILL have problems with some of the early 17th Century vernacular of the KJV. I certainly understand it better than most people that I know (given my amount of experience with it). My wife, who also taught university classes, has an extremely difficult time with King James-era English language.

Why?

Much of that language is no longer "common." This is akin to the fact that the English language of 1211 would have been somewhat difficult to understand for people in 1611. So, readers are often required to consult other sources to explain words for us.

You really need to stop using the forums of this ministry as a place to make audacious and ultimate public proclamations that even declare personal opinions to be "truth" or a "lie." It seems that you are calling people "liars" if they express that they have some difficulty with understanding the language and usage of the KJV.

Perhaps it would be best if you limited your KJV agenda arguments to a single thread? After all, this is NOT the focus of this website. Moreover, such repetitive topics tend to drown out other topics that people might want to discuss.

W
White_Stone Apr 15, 2011

I studied at the university level for more than eight years and I will be the first to admit that I STILL have problems with some of the early 17th Century vernacular of the KJV.

Worldly knowledge is not the KEY to reading the KJV. A child can read it and understand. It is a heart issue. God opens or blinds the readers eyes in His Wisdom and according to his Words. "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find."

By the way, brother anonoymous777 did not start this thread, a forum moderator started it. Certainly he should have been able to foresee the direction it would/could take.

white stone

O
Oracio Apr 15, 2011


Examples of the "hard-to-understand" issue regarding the KJV:

In numerous passages the word "conversation" is used and it no longer has the same meaning today. Back then it meant behavior or conduct, today it means speaking with someone. Two completely different meanings.

OBSOLETE WORDS IN THE KJV
Part 1

By Robert A. Joyner

There are many words in the KJV today that do not convey the meaning to the modern reader that the original writers intended to express. When the KJV came out in 1611, it was sixteenth century English at its best. Through the years many words and expressions have become ambiguous or misleading. There are hundreds of them. In this chapter I will point out samples of them. I believe the reader will find archaic and obsolete words are a much bigger problem than you would think.

ARCHAIC EXPRESSIONS

In the KJV you run into outdated expressions which the modern American could never understand without help. Of course, all of these examples I will give are updated in the NIV and the NASB.

In I Samuel 30:31 the KJV says, “Where David himself and his men were wont to haunt.” Five times the KJV uses the expression, “Fetch a compass” (examples: II Sam. 5:23; Acts 28:13). In Matt. 27:44 it says, “They cast the same in his teeth.” In Mark 9:18 the KJV says, “And pineth away.” In Gal. 4:24 it says, “Which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.” In James 1:21 we are told to “lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness.”

The reader will never know what these obsolete expressions mean unless he looks them up in another source. The NIV or the NASB makes them all simple enough so a child can understand them.

To those who argue for the beautiful and lofty language of the KJV, I will challenge you to go out in public and talk in King James English today. You will soon see how odd and outdated it is. Try it. I dare you! Of course you will not do it because you do not want to sound silly. But you don’t care if God does.

Now let us focus on some of the words in the KJV that have changed or taken on new meanings through the years.

ARCHAIC WORDS

ADMIRE, ADMIRATION was used in 1611 to denote wonder or astonishment, without any implication of praise or approval. That is why John in Rev. 17:6 looks at the great Whore, which is the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and “wondered with great admiration.” Of course, John did not admire this wicked woman, but he was amazed and wondered. The NIV says,” I was greatly astonished.” The KJV conveys the wrong meaning here and in other places where these words are used.

AFFINITY means nearness of kin or mutual attraction today. The Hebrew word translated “affinity” by the KJV means, “relationship by marriage, especially by a father and a son-in-law.” In 2 Chronicles 18:1 Jehoshaphat “joined affinity with Ahab.” In Ezra 9:14 the KJV says, “Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations.” The NASB says “intermarry” or “allied himself by marriage.” The reader of the KJV will miss part of the meaning in these verses while the NASB makes it clear.

AGAINST today means opposite or confronting. Notice how it is used in the KJV. In Genesis 43:25, “against Joseph came” and Exodus 7:15 it says, “against he come” and in II Kings 16:11, “against king Ahaz came.” In Numbers 25:4 it says, “Take the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun.” Over and over the KJV uses the word “against” when another word would give a clearer meaning for the modern reader. The NIV and the NASB usually say “for” or “before” in these passages.

AGONE is an outdated word for “ago.” In I Samuel the Egyptian said, “Three days agone I fell sick.”(30:13) The NASB says, “I fell sick three days ago.”

ALLEGE today means merely to assert. In the sixteenth century it meant to produce evidence and to prove. In Acts 17, Paul for three Sabbaths reasoned with the Jews out of the Scriptures. Verse 3 says, “Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead.” Does anyone believe that Paul only asserted but did not prove and give evidence for what he said? The NASB says, “Explaining and giving evidence.”

ALWAY appears 23 times in the KJV and “always” 62 times. Today we always add the “s.” In Titus 1:12 Paul said, “The Cretians are alway liars.” Matthew 28:20 says, “Lo, I am with you alway.”

ANGLE meant “fishhook” to the KJV translators. “All they who cast angle into the brooks” means “all those who cast a hook into the Nile.” (Isa. 19:8 NIV) The KJV turned around and translated the same word as “hook” in Job 41:1. “Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook?”

ANON means “soon” or “presently” in my dictionary today. The Greek word translated “anon” means “immediately” or “straightway.” The KJV can be misleading here. For example, in Mark 1:30, when Jesus entered Peter’s house they immediately tell Him about the sick mother-in-law. However, the KJV says that “anon” they told Him. This makes it sound like they waited awhile. The stony ground hearer, in the parable of the sower, heard the word and “anon with joy receiveth it.” (Matt. 13:20-21) The Greek says he received it immediately while the KJV makes it sound like he might have waited awhile. I realize this is no big deal. But the point I want to make is that throughout the KJV, in small things as well as the big, the reader is being misled.

APOTHECARY appears six times in the KJV. The word means one who prepares and sells drugs for medicine. However, the Hebrew word means “perfumer.” The NASB always says “perfumer.”

ARMHOLE is used for “armpit” in the KJV. In Ezekiel 13:18 it says, “Sew pillows to all armholes.” In Jeremiah 38:12 it says, “Put now these old cast clouts and rotten rags under thine armholes under the cords.” The NASB says, “Now put these worn-out clothes and rags under your armpits under the ropes.” Anyone can see that “armpit” is better than “armhole.” I am not sure what an “armhole” is, unless it is a hole in your arm.

AT is used in an obsolete way in Exodus 19:15. It says, “Come not at your wives.” Numbers 6:6 tells the nazarite, “he shall come at no dead body.” The Hebrew means don’t come near your wives or near any dead body. I give only two examples here, but many times the KJV uses “at” in the obsolete sense.

AWAY WITH is an old expression used in Isaiah 1:13. “I cannot away with.” The Hebrew means tolerate or endure. The NASB says, “I cannot endure.” This expression, which we never use today, makes it harder for the reader to see that God cannot endure false religion.

BAKEMEATS is used in Genesis 40:17, where the chief baker was carrying “all manner of bakemeats for Pharaoh.” This simply means all sorts of food prepared by a baker, (which usually contained no meat). It has little to do with the modern conception of baked meats.

BEAST is used in the KJV as a general term for all living creatures other than man. The word “animal” is not used in the KJV. The word “reptile” does not appear, since it is was not in current use then.

The word “beast” is used in the book of Revelation to refer to the holy living creatures around the throne of God. (4:6,7,8) Remarkably, the same word is used to refer to the wicked “beast” that rises out of the sea, and the “beast” that rises out of the bottomless pit. (13:1,11; 17:8) There are two different Greek words used in these passages. One means “living creatures” and the other means “wild beasts.” The KJV makes no distinction. The NASB does.

BESOM is an outdated word for broom. In Isaiah 14:23, God says of Babylon, “I will sweep it with the besom of destruction.”

BETHINK THEMSELVES is used in I Kings 8:47, “Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land.” The NASB says, “If they take thought in the land.”

BETIMES means early or in time. However, the Hebrew word the KJV translates as “betimes” actually means diligent or persistent. In II Chronicles 36:15 when the Lord sent messengers “betimes,” it means He sent them persistently. In Proverbs 13:24 the KJV says chasten him “betimes.” It actually means to “discipline him diligently.” This word “betimes” in the KJV, misled me in my early Christian life. The reader should research every verse where the word is used before he assumes he knows the meaning of it.

BEWRAY is an obsolete word which meant to reveal or disclose. In Matthew 26:73, Peter was told, “thy speech bewrayeth thee.” The NIV says, “Your accent gives you away.” I believe “bewray” is used about four times in the KJV.

BLOW UP is used in the KJV sometimes instead of simply “blow.” In Psalm 81:3, it says, “Blow up the trumpet.” Today “blow up” means to explode or inflate.

BOLLED is used in the KJV in Exodus 9:31. It says “the flax was bolled.” The Hebrew word means bud or bloom. Of course, the NASB or the NIV brings this out.

BOTCH, as used by the KJV, is an archaic word that means boils or sores, as the “botch of Egypt”, etc.

BOWELS is used 28 times in the Old Testament. Sometimes the word is used literally as we would use it today. In II Samuel 20:10, Joab cut out the “bowels” of Amasa. The NASB says, “inward parts,” which sounds better.

Also, the KJV uses the word “bowels” to denote the womb and the male organs. This can be mis-leading. In about 10 instances the word “bowels” is used for feelings and emotions. Examples: “My bowels are troubled.” (Lam. 1:20) “My bowels were moved for him.” (S.S. 5:4) The KJV says of Joseph that “his bowels did yearn upon his brother.” (Gen. 43:30)

In eight passages in the New Testament the KJV uses “bowels” in the sense of affection or compassion. The Greek word does not refer to the intestines specifically, but to the “inward parts.” It is much like the word for heart, which can mean your blood pump, or it can mean “inward affection” or “sincere emotion” (As, “I love you with all my heart.”) In the English language of 1611, both “bowels” and “heart” had this double reference to physical organs and to emotions of which these organs were supposed to be the seat. Today only the word “heart” retains the double meaning.

When Paul tells the Philippians that he longs for them “in bowels of Jesus Christ” (1:8), he means the affections of Jesus Christ. In Colossians 3:12, Paul talks about “bowels of mercies.” In I John 3:17 the KJV says, “shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him.” The book of Philemon uses “bowels” about three times. This book will mean more if you put “heart” in the place of “bowels.” In fact, most passages where the word “bowels” is used, will mean more if you will read them in the NIV or the NASB.

The word “bowels” was a good word in 1611, but I would not recommend that you use it in polite society today. It is a very crude word now. It should be updated.

BULLOCK is used today only of bulls that have been castrated. In the KJV the word means a young bull. To use the word “bullock” today is a blatant mistranslation because the word means something different than it did in 1611. The Bible says the bull had to be without blemish to be offered to the Lord.

CARE, CAREFULNESS, CAREFUL are words that can be misunderstood by the readers of the KJV. They appear in the sense of anxiety or worry. Martha was “careful and troubled about many things.” (Luke 10:41) This means she was worried and upset. Paul told the Corinthians, “I would have you without carefulness.” (I Cor. 7:32) This means that Paul wanted them free from worry or anxiety. God does not want His children to worry. (Phil. 4:6 NASB) The reader can miss some blessings unless he refers to another version where these obsolete words are not used.

CARRIAGE in the KJV means that which is carried. Today it means a vehicle by which persons or things are carried, such as a horse and carriage. I still remember as a young Christian, I read, “we took up our carriages and went to Jerusalem.”(Acts 21:15) I did not understand then, “that they took up their baggage.”

CERTIFY today means to attest or declare by a formal or legal certificate. The KJV uses the word “certify” when the meaning is simply to tell or to make known. Examples: “Esther certified the king thereof.” (Esther 2:22) In Galatians 1:11, Paul says, “I certify you brethren.” In neither case is there any implication of formal attestation. The Greek means “to make known” or “I would have you to know.”

CHOLER is an outdated word that once meant anger. In Daniel 8:7, “He was moved with choler.” In 11:11, “The king of the south shall be moved with choler.” The Hebrew word means he was enraged or moved with anger. We do not use the old word “choler” today. If you did, no one would know what you meant.

CLOSET is used several times in the KJV. The word once meant a private room but this is not the meaning today. Sometimes the KJV translators use “chamber” for the same word. The Greek word for “closet” means private room or storeroom. “Closet” is ambiguous in Matthew 6:6, where it says, “enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret.” The reader is misled in all other places where the word closet is used.

COLLEGE is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word which means the second quarter or district. The KJV says Huldah the prophetess “dwelt in Jerusalem in the college.” (II Kings 22:14; II Chron. 34:22) The NIV says, “in the Second District.” The word “college” has misled me before I learned better.

T
That-guy0010 Apr 15, 2011

If I personally have insulted anyone, I want to apologize now. I also want to say that yes, the KJV might be easier for people with a better understanding of this type of language. I personally was brought up reading and hearing the KJV for the 17 years of my life, and I will admit that sometimes I do have trouble understanding some of the passages, but the more I read them, the more I get a basic understanding of what it is saying. I also want to say that it doesn't matter to me what version you read. I would rather someone read the ESV version than no version at all. To me, it is still God's word no matter if it is in old English or new English.

M
makrothumia Apr 15, 2011

Here is a little copy and paste from a website very pro King James, it's a dictionary help site. They seemed to feel there were a few words that readers might not easily understand :-)

Is the King James Bible full of hard to understand, archaic, obsolete words? Do you know the meanings of "avouch", "bruit", "collop", "durst", and "emerods"? The King James Bible can be difficult to understand for many people who are not accustomed to its vocabulary. Using the King James Dictionary you can now learn the meaning of all those obsolete, extinct Bible words, like "concupiscence," "greaves" and "wist"...

The King James Dictionary is a software program that will increase your knowledge of the King James Bible.

Have you ever been puzzled by a word in the King James Bible and tried to look it up using a regular dictionary like Websters or the American Heritage Dictionary? Don't despair... Go directly to our handy dictionary containing over 860 words deemed archaic and find its definition quickly...

makrothumia

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ccchhhrrriiisss Apr 15, 2011

Hi White_Stone,


Worldly knowledge is not the KEY to reading the KJV. A child can read it and understand. It is a heart issue. God opens or blinds the readers eyes in His Wisdom and according to his Words. "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find."

Did God supernaturally teach you to read?

I am not saying that the KJV is unreadable. However, it is difficult to understand the language of the KJV for MANY people -- including sincere believers.

It is easy to "pass the buck" as if it were God's responsibility to supernaturally teach us the meaning of 17th Century words, usage and rhetoric.

Unfortunately, the rest of us who read the KJV sometimes use dictionaries, Bible dictionaries and study aids to help elucidate the meaning of words that are no longer "common."

It is inappropriate to accuse anyone who experiences some difficulty with the language of the KJV as a "lie."


By the way, brother anonoymous777 did not start this thread, a forum moderator started it. Certainly he should have been able to foresee the direction it would/could take.

Anonymous777 was the first post in this thread, so I assumed that he started it.

sermonindex Apr 15, 2011

Whitestone,

I did start this thread.

I think you are thinking about the Post that was started by SermonIndex on KJV people using the KJV to control others and keep them in the dark.

I don't know what the REAL purpose of posting that was.

I had to get off that thread fast. Unbelievable!!!

For the record, I find the ESV, NIV, NKJB, TNIV very hard to understand. And hard to read becausje they are way too wordy. OY VEY!!

I can't believe how dumbed down we are today. We even have verse by verse comparisons on these versions on the Internet that anyone can view to see for themselves that the newer versions may be "easier" to read, but they are HARDER TO UNDERSTAND because of the "big" words they use.

That is what I was referring to as the "READABILITY LIE". If people keep saying the same thing over and over, then the masses eventually believe it. But no one will ever lift a finger (literally a finger to press Enter) to check into this on their own.

And I think that is indicative of a far greater problem within Christendom. We take the words of so-called "experts" and "scholars" and "theologians" rather than doing our own research.

I will not go into all the problems with ESV.

GOOGLE "the truth about the english standard version"

DO SOME RESEARCH before making statements that only show you have DONE NO RESEARCH.

Now, if you don't mind, I have to get back to some people that I am controlling and feed them some darkness from the KJV.

Frustrating!!

A777

R
RobertW Apr 15, 2011

Wondering how we can tone this down a bit. I don't think it is helpful when things get going like this. I'm very much KJV personally, but also understand the limitations. This subject has been dealt with in great detail by well learned men in the SI forums over the years. Perhaps doing a search and reading through some of them would help clear up a lot of the issues here.

When the topic starts to generate more heat than light we are not edifying one another. Hoping we can tone things down a bit.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Apr 15, 2011


For the record, I find the ESV, NIV, NKJB, TNIV very hard to understand. And hard to read becausje they are way too wordy. OY VEY!!

I can't believe how dumbed down we are today. We even have verse by verse comparisons on these versions on the Internet that anyone can view to see for themselves that the newer versions may be "easier" to read, but they are HARDER TO UNDERSTAND because of the "big" words they use.

That is what I was referring to as the "READABILITY LIE". If people keep saying the same thing over and over, then the masses eventually believe it. But no one will ever lift a finger (literally a finger to press Enter) to check into this on their own.

So, we are "dumbed down" for admitting some difficulty with the readability of the KJV -- but you are not for having difficulty with the ESV, NASB, NKJV or NIV?

By the way, it isn't the "big" words in the KJV that people have difficulty with. It is the "archaic" words that have long since changed their meaning or departed the common English language that many people have trouble with. Do you "know" what I mean (and I am not talking about the KJV "know" found in places like Matthew 1:25)?

And I think that is indicative of a far greater problem within Christendom. We take the words of so-called "experts" and "scholars" and "theologians" rather than doing our own research.

This is a strong contradiction to what you were saying in one of the other Bible version threads. Previously, you defended the fact that you didn't need to research the sources in order to validate the claims that were presented to you in those websites and books. Research that is confined primarily to KJV-only websites and books is not very good research.

More importantly, this ministry is not the place for you to constantly proclaim your opinions about the KJV (and all other versions) or to accuse anyone who says that they have difficulty with the words, usage or rhetoric of the KJV as propagating a "lie." I think that it would be more helpful if you include your opinions about such matters in one thread...rather than creating multiple threads on the same subject.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Apr 15, 2011


Wondering how we can tone this down a bit. I don't think it is helpful when things get going like this. I'm very much KJV personally, but also understand the limitations. This subject has been dealt with in great detail by well learned men in the SI forums over the years. Perhaps doing a search and reading through some of them would help clear up a lot of the issues here.

When the topic starts to generate more heat than light we are not edifying one another. Hoping we can tone things down a bit.

Thank you, brother Robert.

sermonindex Apr 15, 2011

Agree brother agree. This issue is becoming too polarizing. I rejoice if someone reads the word and is changed by it. We are living in an age of Biblical ignorance. Such heated debates will not promote an interest in scripture. Also the reading of the word will promote revival. Is that not whatt this ministry is about?

sermonindex Apr 15, 2011

Very much agree, brother Robert.

A777

W
Wordizlife Apr 15, 2011

Be submissive to one another and consider others better than yourselves.

That's all that came to mind when I read this thread

sermonindex Apr 15, 2011

I don't recognize that scripture. What is the reference?

M
makrothumia Apr 15, 2011

Yo no pienso que esta es muy significa en muchas otras linguas. Dios les bendiga.

W
Wordizlife Apr 15, 2011

Phil 2:3

Ephesians 5:21

google for the win

edit: "for the win" statement is my way of saying: thank God for google cause otherwise I would have spent a long time searching where I read those verses.

sermonindex Apr 15, 2011

I don't recognize that scripture. What is the reference?
Let me assist:

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Philippians 2:3 [Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

(Still catching up reading here.)

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