The wrath of God in Christ's hours of darkness

L

lylewise Apr 22, 2011

Paul Washer presents the agony of Christ's cup in many of his sermons. However, he goes way beyond the typical torture and pain of the cross that most teach. What is typical of most preaching the crucifiction and the hours preceding it, is the emphasis on the extreme suffering of Christ through such horrendous tortures. It pleased the Father to crush His Son but Washer speaks primarily of that which occured in the hours of darkness. This supported by the reasoning that those Martyrs that proceeded Christ, bore as much if not more physical punishment than the Son of God in His hours of the cross. It was the hours of darkness and what they held that makes the cross what no one can grasp. The Wrath of the Almighty God in those hours that cloaked His Son also hold the greatest mystery of the wrath poured out upon the Son according to Washer. A great mystery. I love Paul Washer but what support might scripture offer of these hours spoken of.

I don't doubt the full bore that the Father brought down upon His Son. I would just like to hear more on the proofs of scripture that would support it. Many a year I listened to preachers speak of the physical pain of the cross and try to better the pain tolled out from the year before. Ever since having listened to Washer speak of this, I too have pondered with much greater wonder those hours of darkness.

I can't see in the omniprescence of God, the separation factor that some attribute this great suffering to, nor Christ becoming the sin itself so that He would become every vile rebel in sin vs the propitiation by imputation.

Any help would be appreciated.

sermonindex Apr 22, 2011

Many of the Psalms undoubtedly apply to Christ and some are foreshadows of the cross. Psalm 88 to me might be the one that most shows the wrath of God on Christ on the cross. I'd also especially look at Psalm 22 and Psalm 69. It's also notable that on the cross Jesus called prayed to "God" and not "his Father." "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46- which is from Psalm 22). I think of Leviticus 16:20 where the sins where the sins of Israel were put upon the scapegoat who took them a way into a land not inhabited. I see it by that that our sins were put upon Christ, but they never became a part of him. i.e. He never actually was a sinner, though he was judged as one (1 Peter 3:18). The day of atonement in Leviticus 16 is no doubt an important chapter regarding this. With the separation factor I think of Abraham about offer up Isaac; the father was there, but only to slay. Also Hebrews 2:9 and Psalm 75:8 go along with Christ's cup that he drank.

Psalm 88

1O lord God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:

2Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry;

3For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.

4I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:

5Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.

6Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.

7Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.

8Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.

9Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.

10Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

11Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

12Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

13But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.

14LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?

15I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.

16Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off.

17They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together.

18Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.

H

HISslave Apr 22, 2011

lylewise

Lately I have been thinking about this very topic. Paul Washer is one of my favorite preachers and same as you I have been thinking about where in Scripture it talks about Gods wrath on Calvary.
One verse I think might show this is Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief".
I am really interested in reading what other people will write, especially considering today is good Friday.

sermonindex Apr 22, 2011

To growingone,

I'd never seen Psalm 88 in that light. Thank you for sharing it.

It's also notable that on the cross Jesus called prayed to "God" and not "his Father." "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46- which is from Psalm 22).

I like Psalm 22 for its description of the spiritual battle which went on during Christ's time on the cross, followed by v 22 when He breaks through into praise.

He does, also, refer to His relationship with the Father earlier in that Psalm:

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying], 8 He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

{He trusted...: Heb. He rolled himself on}
{seeing...: or, if he delight in}
{didst...: or, kept me in safety}

There are other quotes from the cross which do mention 'Father' by name:

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

sermonindex Apr 22, 2011

HISslave,

I would include these earlier verses from Isaiah 53:4
Surely he hath borne our griefs,

and carried our sorrows:

yet we did esteem him stricken,

smitten of God,

and afflicted.

5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions,

[he was] bruised for our iniquities:

the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him;

and with his stripes we are healed.

O

Oracio Apr 22, 2011

I think a good word for us to consider in this discussion is "propitiation" as seen in Romans 3:24-25 and Hebrews 2:17. The basic meaning is the appeasment or satisfaction of the wrath of God upon sinners. God poured out on His only begotten Son the wrath that was due for our sins.

We know that the eternal punishment for our sins is eternal damnation in hell. So logically it follows that somehow in those hours as He hung on that bloody cross Christ took upon Himself the suffering and damnation of hell that we deserve for our violations of God's Law.

We can get a very small idea of that by considering that He not only took the punishment for one sinner but for millions. The Father poured out on Him the full divine wrath that millions of sinners deserved. There is no way we can ever fully grasp the depth of what He suffered as He hung there on that tree for those hours.

sermonindex Apr 23, 2011

One of my first Pastors helped me to see quite a bit of the agony in the Garden one Sunday when he said that the struggle of Jesus as He prayed was not out of fear of the cross - as He sweat as it were drops of blood, but that realization of taking on the sins of the world - past, present and future populations. I can't even express the impact that had on me. Unimaginable. Every sin, crime, atrocity ever commited or will be. It's very difficult to fathom that. Our minds can't even begin to go there. But He did.

G

Giggles Apr 23, 2011

Chief text: Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"—

Compare what being cursed means with Deut. 28:15-68. Washer also likes to look at Old Testament judgment prophecies against the nations as well as take the antithesis of verses describing blessing (such as the Beatitudes) to get an idea of what being cursed means.

Other texts:

Zec 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who stands next to me," declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones.

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son.

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

sermonindex Apr 23, 2011

Alive-to-God,

Thanks for holding me accountable. I had not considered Luke 23:34. I had thought that Luke 23:46 was possibly when the penalty had already been paid, the darkness lifted, and all was left was for Jesus to die physically (since obviously his tasting spiritual death and physical death were not one and the same) based on John 19:28-30:

28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23:46 being what Jesus said the very moment before he died physically. I question whether in Luke 23:34 our sins had yet been put upon Jesus, as it seems the entire three hours time of that was when the darkness was over the land is recorded solely in Luke 23:44. I'm also wondering if the veil being rent that's recorded in Luke 23:45 was the way Jesus knew all things had been accomplished in John 19:28 given above; and thus John 19:28-30 and Luke 23:46 happened in the very final moments of Jesus' physical life. Something to consider, do correct me if you see an inconsistency in that. Regardless, he bore the full penalty of our sin on the cross and is alive to save us to the uttermost! Praise the Lord!

sermonindex Apr 23, 2011

Giggles,

Many the Old Testament prophecies against nations do give a great picture of what Christ suffered on the cross. Lamentations is a book wholly concerned with the judgment and wrath of God poured out on a guilty Jerusalem. It's amazing that in Lamentations 3 that Jerusalem in torments is personified in a man. Jeremiah identifying with the anguish of Jerusalem is no doubt a picture of Christ's agony bearing our sins. It reminds a lot of Psalm 22.

1I AM the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

2He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

3Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day.

4My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones.

5He hath builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.

6He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.

7He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.

8Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.

9He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.

10He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.

11He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate.

12He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

13He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

14I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

15He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.

16He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.

17And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.

18And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

19Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

20My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.

L

lylewise Apr 23, 2011

Thank all for the scriptures recommended. I am trying to take them in and meditate on them. It is not that I am ignorant of them, but many a time I will gain a new insight and perspective in that which I have considered before. One thought from Psalm 69:17 has to be the loneliness that accompanied Jesus in both the light and the dark hours. We pray and we know God is listening. He was forsaken. The meat that Jesus partook of when the disciples were confounded in thinking he had eaten elsewhere was his commune with the Father. Christ taught us to pray and for Him no one has ever done it in more desperate and true fashion. What was taken from Him that He cared more about than anything else was the communion with His Father when He prayed. No longer was that available to Him. He said he could not trust himself to men because he knew their hearts. Now forsaken from those He was close to; the world was against Him. He would loose that which He had never been deprived of before. Now he was under the purposeful disregard of His Father. We as humans suffer minor forms of rejection all through our lives but the Son lives eternally. He has always enjoyed the perfect company and love of the Father and the Spirit. Can it even be compared to our relationships given that He is the God man? Also in verse 17 you get the appeal to not let this separation go long for the psalmist even says "answer me right away" As a thousand years is a day to the Lord, I could scarcely imagine the time that the Son who once again in His Godliness could just as likely live one hour as a thousand, might have felt, being ignored by Him whom He had lived with and for in all eternity. Such deep mysteries?

Psalm 88 speaks well of this rejection but more so the anger and hatred of the Lord toward the rebellious sins that the innocent and pure lamb must pay for. It is the most natural common error we commit when we try to understand God a little better and in doing so tend to box Him into that which cannot possibly hold Him. His hatred of sin is as underestimated as His love of righteousness. Psalm 88:16 "Your anger overwhelms me, Your terrors destroy me". Through all of this, even though He is rejected of the Father He asks Him to speak to Him and to not remain silent, Jesus prays. He always prays, even when the wrath of the Father is upon Him and He knows the Father will be silent, Jesus prays. I do not mean to insinuate that the Father does not hear the Son for that is one of the great mysteries as God hears all things. So Christ from the cross asking His Father to forgive us, for we do not know what we do is obviously heard for we are forgiven.

I still get the feeling Paul Washer alludes to something much greater than this concerning the wrath poured out upon the Son in these three hours of darkness?

sermonindex Apr 23, 2011

Paul Washer alludes to something much greater than this concerning the wrath poured out upon the Son in these three hours of darkness

Hi lylewise,

I believe Psalm 22 gives quite a lot of detail, if read with understanding.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion. {gaped...: Heb. opened their mouths against me} 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. {out of...: or, sundered} 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. {my darling: Heb. my only one} {power: Heb. hand} 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

The animals that are mentioned (like calling Herod a 'fox'), are to do with personalities of spirits and their appetites. You need to research (in the Bible and from what is known about the behaviours of these animals from extra-biblical studies), bull(s), dog(s) and lions and horns. (I've noticed that a certain type of sheep we have in Scotland, now knowns as Hebridean sheep, can have 1, 2, 3, or 4 horns. The unicorn horn, which arises when the normal 2 are so close they fuse, is quite thick, long and straight. Hebridean is from the same root as Hebrew.) There is a lot in the Bible which you'll pick up as you're reading through, which if you remember, and think clearly about what you know, will explain the way God told His people to deal with certain enemies. Also, Lev 18:23, which is one component of idolatrous worship.

Christ was battling with the principalities and powers, and God graciously covered Him with darkness (privacy) during this time, for He was naked.

Also - I've just remembered - horns of the unicorns recall the horns on the altar, which had special significance for the ordinary man in certain kinds of trouble with others.

sermonindex Apr 23, 2011

To growingone,

Thanks for your reply. I hastened to my New Testament to try to see what you meant.

I'm not sure Christ was near enough the Temple to hear the thick veil being torn, but He may have been. There is controversy over the location of Golgotha, today. Also, I'm not sure if the earthquake happened before He died, but if so, of course He would have heard that too.

However, from my own spiritual battles, I know that one knows when one is 'through' into victory, and this, for me, is the strength of Psa 22:22 - 24 in context. (See preceding verses in post above.)

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. 25 My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. 26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

Looking at the first part of 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree...', we see our sins were IN His own body. I think this is to do with taking a sip of the vinegar from the sponge. It was 'the gall' - the bitterness of death.

In Hebrews 2:9 'he by the grace of God should taste death for every man' is worded in the Hebrew form, where 'taste' = 'drink it all', in the same way as 'hour' = 'whole day'.

In the verses next, we see the way God links 'gall and wormwood' to the curse for idolatry, drunkeness (also associated with ungodly orgies) and IMAG-ination.

Deuteronomy 29:16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by; 17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which [were] among them:) {idols: Heb. dungy gods} 18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go [and] serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you A ROOT THAT BEARETH GALL AND WORMWOOD {gall: or, a poisonous herb} 19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of THIS CURSE, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: {imagination: or, stubbornness} {drunkenness...: Heb. the drunken to the thirsty}..'

1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Going back to the cross, all the accounts show Jesus taking the vinegar and then giving up the ghost. I don't believe sin killed Him. I believe when He cried 'It is finished', He had 'destroyed the devil' - the cause of 'the sin' in the world, through His battle with the principalities and powers, BUT, He did have to DIE in our stead, for our sins, which Peter has also declared. This is how He became our 'Representative Man' - our Substitute.

The way I've heard His death explained, is that He 'dismissed His spirit'. This is where Luke 23:46 fits:

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

sermonindex Apr 23, 2011

Alive-to-God,

Thank you for that understanding of "the gall." I think I have a better understanding now of 2 Corinthians 5:21, which I had been thinking about; as well as Hebrews 12:15-17. You make a good point that Christ would have known he was through the battle in his spirit. That is reliable, whereas his hearing/sight of the temple veil is questionable. It's interesting to consider. I agree with the rest of what you shared. This topic has definitely moved me to consider what a fearful, wonderful salvation that's been bought for us. 1 Peter 1:10-19 really hits home now.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

L

lylewise Apr 23, 2011

So the battle of the cross is both the willing physical surrender and the fight against principalities and powers. Obviously the Father is exercising His sovereignty over the whole process but is this only a use of the agency of others as His means to accomplish His good pleasure. We know that in hell the wrath of God will be poured out for eternity upon those who have denied His Son. Both Satan, demon, and man alike to receive that which is a fury from the Lord that we can but hypothesize given what we have in the detail of Hell. Certainly an eternal punishment for the denial of the Son that brings Gods full wrath unrestrained against sinners. Though not to rule out the use of means of others to heighten the experience of hell, it seems He has created a place that He will forever afford the punishment that fits the heinous crime of the rejection of the Son. So is there upon the cross in the hours of darkness that which is not accounted for. Not by use of men (the Romans, the religious leaders, the the jeering crowd, the assaults of the fellow crucified) and not by the rejection of God as evidenced by Christ's appeals by which the Father turns a deaf ear (not good theology but for the point), but a seeming unaccounted for wrath by the Father apart from the means of others. That which Paul Washer seems to account for in the 3 hours of darkness that seems exclusive between the Father and Son?

I may be trying to read to much into this and I feel I already stand on the fringe of a territory one should not travel. I only ask. It has been a lingering question and to this point it may only be that we can speculate. I am not trying to diminish the work or suffering of Christ. It is enough for me that He was innocent and incorruptible. It is enough for me that the perfection of the love of the trinity would now bring upon the Son that which He had never experienced in eternity from eternity past if you will. So forgive me if I seem to be pressing this time and time again. What has been said is enough for me and I do appreciate it as it is so worthy of discussion and meditation. I have sought to reread many a scripture because of the shared scriptures in this thread and have profited by pulling out some things I had not considered as well as the endearment of the others. I feel I am on dangerous ground to beg the question any more as I may be frustrating the saints and testing the Lord.

M

MrBillPro Apr 23, 2011

We should all spend more time listening to God, than all these fallible Preachers, God said, You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

G

Giggles Apr 23, 2011

I would agree with you GS, but also do appreciate how those prophecies (like a Jeremiah 25 passage descrbing the cup of God's wrath) reveal the heart of God's wrath, which is what Christ bore. So in that context, I think they can be helpful, and which is why I believe Mr. Washer references them in his preaching at times.

sermonindex Apr 24, 2011

Hi lylewise,

This statement you made caught my eye.

In reply, I'm going to repaste a quote from philologos in quite a short old thread about Tyndale having put a marginal note in Romans 8 indicating that Christ was a 'sin offering' for us. For me, this quote is the best I've ever heard express the complexity of what was happening on the cross. It may be incomplete, but it's very succinct. (Keep at the back of your mind that the Old Testament is full of sins forgiven, Christ yet having not been made manifest on earth.)

'

So, are you saying that there is a vital difference between our sins being laid 'on' Him, and our sin(s) being borne 'in' Him?

Christ spoke of his death as a baptism. Into what was he baptized? As a 'sin offering' He certainly bore in his body our sins. This is the figure of the scapegoat. Lev 14

But there is a darker picture in John 3:14-16 where Christ used the figure of an uplifted snake. Baptism has the effect of united the baptized into the element into which he is baptized. “For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,”
(Rom 6:5 NKJV) This 'uniting with' in the consequence of the 'baptism into death' of verse 3.

He was baptized into what we had become. He was united with it so that the judgement that came upon Him came upon it. Once and for all. He was baptized into 'our death' and we must be baptized into His. He was united by baptism to what we were and we are united by baptism (not water) to what he is.

He became Sin and the judgement that was wreaked upon Him was wreaked upon Sin. Not 'sins'; they had to be forgiven but Sin cannot be forgiven it must be executed.'

L

lylewise Apr 24, 2011

ATG, It never ceases to amaze me how I can sometimes overlook the most simple of things. Always considering our baptism like His. His was a terrible baptism and what a horrid picture it represents. The death of Christ is not like our death. We die to sin; Him because of them. He was alive and was made dead and then alive again, and we are benefactors of that death and life. We were dead and are now made alive. A considerable difference considering we both share in the new life. I have never really given much thought to the cup of wrath that sees the Son as sin and not sins. What terrible violence must be brought upon the Son. In a crude analogy I see the difference of a conquering king who not only defeats the apposing army but also every citizen who bares arms upon learning their first line of defense has been defeated. He conquers the army then marches upon the nation and conquers all the peoples there as well. Nothing escapes His subjection. The thoroughness of the Conquerer.

Some struggle over the bronze serpent, but it is such a clear picture of Christ on the cross and what He bore and as you mentioned earlier.

Christ baptized into sin and the Fathers reaction to sin (not just some sins) would indeed solicit an indescribable response on behalf of the Father (the cup of wrath) upon the Son.

If this wrath that is unimaginable is poured out upon the son, what then for those who have said as the Israelites, "We loathe this worthless food (Bread of Heaven), it is detestable to us"? (Numbers 20:27 paraphrase) "My Father is giving you the true Bread from heaven" (John 6:32)

sermonindex Apr 24, 2011

I'm glad that you understood the point philologos was explaining.

what then for those who have said ... ?

Indeed.