What is the Gospel- Comparing it to Lordship Salvation

Re: 'to be conformed to the image of His Son'

OJ,

Would you please comment upon the following verses as they relate one to another within the scheme of your 'no-lordshipness'.

Romans 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Has He predestinated and called us 'to be conformed to the image of His Son' in our glorification only,that is in our glorified bodies in the glorified state when mortality puts on immortality,or is it to be here and now through His sanctification of us,Him working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure?

Thanks.

Worship God.

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To which you replied OJ,

Savannah

Sure I will comment if you will tell me that you 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. It will help me to know how conformed to his image you are, and whether what you believe has been put into practice in your life.

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To which I replied,

Re: Loved,Redeemed,Adopted

Thanks for replying to me OJ.

Thanks as well for your patience with me and the others on this forum as you've been bombarded with questions.

Re: "...if you will tell me that you 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. It will help me to know how conformed to his image you are, and whether what you believe has been put into practice in your life."

I'd be glad to entreat you, as I attempt to answer your query,although you've not commented upon the two verses quoted in my prior post,but you stated that you intend to do so,and I have no reason to doubt you.

My following confession is an experiential fact. That being, that I DO NOT 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him'. Neither in word,deed,thought or attitude.

This being so makes me no less loved,redeemed,adopted, or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in Christ, by God the Father's distinguishing predestinating grace.

Eternally loved in Christ before time began.
Redeemed and adopted in time.

Redeemed by the precious blood of Christ,He owns me. He is my LORD. Adopted into His family as a son He disciplines me as it seems best to Him. Being judiciously justified by grace through faith, I am being relationally sanctified by that same grace through that same faith.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Your error is in equating that any or all who are His 'do ALWAYS those things that please Him', with Lordship Salvation, as it has been called.

As a result of the view of semi-pelagianism which was/is held by many, many concluded that a state of sinless perfection was achievable in this life. Such is not the case,nor do any I know of who teach what is called 'Lordship Salvation' believe this to be so. But rather believe that Salvation is of the LORD,as well as sanctification and preservation.

Lordship Salvation as it is called, is nothing less than a Biblical conversion of a sinner made a saint. Lordship Salvation as it is called,rejects both semi-pelagianism and sinless perfection.

To further answer your question,I am being conformed to His image by His grace,putting into practice what I believe in my day to day life by His grace,even as the Hebrews passages I quoted above make it abundantly clear.

I've answered to the best of my tainted ability. I hope I've clarified it somewhat for you that you may now be better prepared to give an answer to those verses I mentioned. And now if you would,please include how the Hebrews verses would relate as well.

1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was toward me has not been without fruit, but I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Thanks again.

Worship God.

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May we now continue...

Soli Deo Gloria

OldJoe

LS fails at its denial of the two natures of a regenerate man, and propogates the one nature heresy entirely denying that the old nature of man still exists in the regenerate. If the old nature is missing, whence cometh this war in our souls?

Not so, we do not deny the war between the flesh and the Spirit within us. But we reject the excuse that is made for an unrepentant sinful lifestyle on account of that truth of that war. Many twist the Scriptures with regard to the war in the true believer's life between flesh and Spirit. They say in essence, "Since we have two natures it is possible to completely give in to the sinful nature and still be saved, as long as we are trusting in Christ for salvation." They see bondage to the power of sin as a possible normal part of a Christian's life. Yet that goes completely against the clear teaching of God's Word. Romans 6:1-7 declares, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin."

Here is an article I came across which I thought explains the war between flesh and Spirit well:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CC0QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gotquestions.org%2Ftwo-natures.html&ei=ImqyTYWmAoiosAO8-aDnCw&usg=AFQjCNH0xeaEg5afSpZoQjZrsF5Abej1mA&sig2=tXdPLmXQwqSxGFivF0P75g

Solomon was saved from his youth, and yet fell into idolatry of the worst kind towards the end of his life, but this man was chosen to pen several books of the Bible. There is no such thing as loss of salvation, yet the life of Solomon blows up the doctrine of Lordship Salvation.

You are using the example of an Old Testament saint who fell into sin as an excuse for unrepentant, willful sin in the life of a Christian. I don't think that is very wise.

The new nature is imparted, yet the old nature remains. The new nature is owned by Christ, the old nature is all that I can claim that I am, all new is of CHrist. This is why it is important to see that we are ungodly, that is all that we can claim of ourselves. The Christian is counted righteous for Christ's sake, and is counted godly for Christ's sake, but these things belong to Christ and are merely imputed to us by faith.

To a certain degree I would agree with your statements there. In and of ourselves we are all as an unclean thing. with no righteousness of our own. Righteusness is imputed to us by faith for Christ's sake. The problesm with your statement is that you seem to deny the practical righteousness wrought in us by the Holy Spirit. Not only do we have a foreign imputed righteousness from God by faith, but also a practical outworking of righteousness in and through us by the Spirit. That is the process of sanctification.

So I ask, since "Christ died for the ungodly", are you ungodly?

Yes, in and of myself I am the chief of sinners. But blessed be God that He chose me before the foundation of the world to be comformed to the image of His Son(Rom.8:29)and to be holy and blameless before Him(Eph.1:4). I cannot deny that He has done a miraculous work in and through my life. All glory goes to Him for that. It is a reality in the life of every true believer in Christ. Though we may stumble daily He continues to discipline us as a loving Father, and shape us and mold us into His image.

Also, in the sight of God I am no longer ungodly, but a saint. You can see this throughout the New Testament. God no longer sees us as guilty sinners but as saints for Christ's sake.

Many make excuses for living habitually after the flesh, to their own destruction.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."(Galatians 6:7-8)

OJ,

You ask, "are you ungodly?"

You ask in the present tense. Therefore I answer no.

I was one of the ungodly for whom Christ died.
But I am now a new creation in Christ.
I am one to whom the epistles are addressed:

Rom. 1:7 ...beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

1 Cor. 1:2,3...to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place--both theirs and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!

2 Cor. 1:1,2 ...with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Eph 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Philippians 1:1,2 Paul and Timotheus, servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with overseers and ministrants; Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Timotheus the brother,to the saints in Colossae, and to the faithful brethren in Christ: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

Jude 1:1,2 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

I am a saint and no longer a sinner.
In Adam I was a sinner and I died as such.
In Christ I am now a saint who has been raised and made alive. A new creation.

The Word of God tells us who we were and who we are.
I am now in the number of the redeemed men.
Not in the number of the ungodly and sinners.

Psalms 1:1-6 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth now, having been stored up by the same Word, are being kept for fire to a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Jude 1:14,15 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

No! I am not ungodly nor am I a sinner,any longer.
I am a righteous saint.
My LORD and my Redeemer has told me so and made me so!

Worship God.

One of the problems is that OJ does not understand the difference between known and unknown sin, willful and unwillful sin or deliberate and undeliberate sin. There is also a drastic difference between a lifestyle of sin or a moment of imperfection of the flesh. I can certainly say that I have repented and turned from all deliberate, willful, known sin and have given up a lifestyle of sin. At the same time I can say that I have areas in my life which fall short of the perfection of Christ and would be considered sin. I also most certainly inadvertently sin upon occasion as I am going through the life long process of sanctification being molded into the image of Christ. For example, I may have unknown areas of pride, jealousy or lack of faith in my heart all of which are considered sin, but none of which would be considered willful transgression of the law. I may also inadvertently get angry or say an unkind word to my wife or speak harshly to a co-worker in frustration. All of the above examples would be considered unknown or unwillfull or undeliberate sin When this sin occurs in my life or God reveals areas of imperfections of the flesh I am quick to repent and turn from them out of love for my Lord and Savior. At the very same time I can honestly say I have no willful, unrepentant, deliberate sin in my life and do not live a life style of willful sin - for example - I do not lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, get drunk, fornicate, etc and I do not willfully transgress the law. This will help when OJ or others try to point out imperfections and unwillful sin as a argument that one does not have to turn from sin as a requirement of salvation. Also, make sure that the definition of sin OJ is using is "willful transgression of the law" and not the definition of "anything that falls short of the perfection of Christ and glory of God" make sure you hold him to the first definition and his argument and theology will start to crumble and fall apart. The only way his argument can hold up is if he uses the latter definition and tries to blur the clear and biblical differences between willful and un-willful sin.

We also must realize that Jesus many times put requirements on salvation and the requirement was always to lay everything down for him and make Him Lord of our life. The rich young ruler, peal of great price, treasure in the field, pick up you cross, deny self, let the dead bury the dead, hate mother father etc. just to name a few. Just like in the case of the rich young ruler when Jesus told him "one thing you lack" in order to receive salvation. Jesus pointed out what he was putting his trust in and required him to lay it down in order to receive salvation. Jesus does the same thing today - He requires us to lay everything down (out of love, not as a way to work our way to or to earn salvation) as a requirement for salvation, just like He did with the rich young ruler. The thing that OJ's opinions will prevent him from understand is that this is also a sanctification process as well as a initial event. So for instance, when I was saved I absolutely laid everything down out of love for Jesus and made Him Lord of my life, but since then He has revealed and put His finger on numerous other areas and things in my life and heart that I have given up and lay down for Him because I love Him and desire nothing more then to be pleasing to Him - and I can absolutely guarantee that over the rest of my life there will be plenty more things that the Holy Spirit reveals. With that being said, at this time, I have no areas of my life that I currently know of that I have not laid down or are un-surrendered to Christ.

OJ has some WONDERFUL things to say and is REALLY on the right track! I also agree with him that MANY who preach what he would refer to as "lordship" salvation do so in an unbiblical and legalistic way. With that being said there are still somethings that he needs to understand and he cannot reconcile his opinions with the WHOLE council of God.

I really hope this helps the discussion! I have very little time to chime in but this is an extremely important topic and I want to help bring clarity to the discussion. 1. Just make sure that the differences between willful and unwillful and known and unknown sin are always keep clearly defined. 2. Also, make sure that the definition of sin is always kept at "willful transgression of the law" and NOT "anything that fall short of the perfection of Christ and the glory of God". 3. And lastly always clearly define repentance, turning from sin and making Jesus Lord of our life not only as an initial event but a life long process of sanctification. If you can do these three things it will prevent much confusion and help the discussion go much better.

When ever the word "sin" comes up in this thread ask the writer to please define as "known and/or willful sin" or "un-known and/or un-willful sin" also do the same when referring to "laying everything down for Jesus" or "Making Jesus Lord of your life.

Good points from Patrick. I'm reminded of one of Paul Washer's quotes, "If you don't have a new relationship with sin you don't have a new relationship with God."

Regarding the difference between willful and unwillful sin Hebrews 10:26-27 comes to mind, "26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

For me this will probably be my last post on this thread and topic for now, as I feel I've said a lot and shared many Scriptures, much of which OJ seems to be deliberately ignoring and rejecting. But notice I said "probably" okay :)

Blessings,
Oracio

BTW, I know I may have seemed somewhat harsh toward OJ in some of my posts on this thread and topic. I guess I see it as contending for the true Gospel against a false and deceptive one. OJ, I really do hope the best for you spiritually.

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous.

OJ said,

"Until you learn the difference between “being righteous” and “being counted righteous” you simply cannot exist."

OJ also said,

"...but it clearly says that none are actually righteous."

From your testimony one can't but conclude that not only are there none who exist who are 'actually righteous', but that there are none who exist who are 'actually sinners'.

God's testimony above, in Romans 5:19 says otherwise. It says that those who are in Adam are constituted sinners,and those who are in Christ are constituted righteous. We are actually sinners in God's sight in Adam, and we are actually righteous in God's sight in Christ.

You OJ, bring your own testimony by your words "...but it clearly says that none are actually righteous",attempting to make a third category of men,or rather taking away from God's testimony of the redeemed, by undermining and twisting the words of scripture, and attempting to remove the efficacy of the work accomplished by Christ on the cross for His people.

I continue with God's testimony of those actually righteous and those actually sinners.

Matt 25:37,46 Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You; or thirsting, and gave You drink?...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

1 Peter 3:12 FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE UPON THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ARE OPEN TO THEIR SUPPLICATION; BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS SET AGAINST EVIL-DOERS."

Righteous - Strongs #G1342

dikaios
dik'-ah-yos

equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

In these verses it does not state the ones 'being counted righteous', but 'the righteous'. But you again add to the Word of God your own twist.

Are you sinner or saint?
Are you ungodly or righteous?
Are you a goat or a sheep?
Are you in Adam or in Christ?

Are you in darkness or in light?
Are you a wise virgin or a foolish virgin?

Is Jesus your LORD or is satan?
Is God your Father or the devil?

In summary, the no-lordship teachers are guilty as charged, even as we read of those in Luke 19.

Luke 19:12-14,26,27 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said to them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us... For I say to you, That to every one who hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even what he hath shall be taken away from him. But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luke 19:12-14,26,27 So He said to them, "A man of noble family travelled to a distant country to obtain the rank of king, and to return. And he called ten of his servants and gave each of them a pound, instructing them to trade with the money during his absence."Now his countrymen hated him, and sent a deputation after him to say, 'We are not willing that he should become our king.'...
'I tell you that to every one who has anything, more shall be given; and from him who has not anything, even what he has shall be taken away. But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.'"

Thus far you've not addressed any scripture I have posted on this thread. With the exception of Romans 8:29 in part where you merely glossed over the verse and skirted the issue.

I'd also like to comment that not only has OJ answered myself and others here with an arrogant spirit, but he's also misrepresented what I believe both;

Here: "Savannah’s response is in agreement with this[referring to Macarthur's quote denying the two natures in a believer]."

I do believe in the two natures in a believer.

And Here: "For this Romans 7 has to be adjusted to the life of a believer before conversion..."

I believe in Romans 7 Paul speaks on a personal level of the two natures in the believer (i.e. after conversion).

I've made myself clear regarding what I believe.
If I'm unclear anywhere I'd be glad to clarify.

I posted this in the other Lordship thread but noticed the dialogue stopped there and saw this one still going so I am reposting what I said in the other thread in hopes of adding to this discussion in this thread.

I have been really thinking hard on this whole think one post of OJ that I agreed with was the one where he quotes H.A. Ironside. The Gospel, to me, is nothing I have gained nor deserved. There is nothing I can do to acquire Salvation other than Believe, Fear, and tremble at the awesomeness and Holiness of our God. BUT at the same time with my belief comes reaction to that belief, a belief isn't much of a belief if it doesn't cause a response or reaction in your daily life.

Repentance to its Greek word Metanoya literally means a "Change of Mind" When I hear that Christ died for my sins and through His sacrifice and the Work of the Cross I can not only be forgiven but also redeemed my first reaction and change of mind should be away from the thing my Saviour died for. If you truly believe the Gospel you will truly appreciate what Christ has done for you from this everything you do for Christ and In Christ is done "not of my self" but flows out of a heart of gratitude rather than Labor.

All we have to do is believe :) Simple enough right? The real question that we need to ask though is does my Faith do something, ie does it work? If I believe there is a monster under my bed, I mean truly believe! Then I will react, by being scared, by having my wife check under the bed, by using a nightlight, etc. For salvation it is all the same this is the kind of belief Christ speaks of a belief and heart that RESPONSE to the call of Salvation.

When Peter tells the crowds "Repent" he is saying change your mind at about this Good News, its really true! In Jewish tradition and sacrifice the animal sacrifices could only cover up sin BUT Christ did something far greater He took sin upon Himself and removed yours and my sin. That's not just Good News but GREAT News! However for the average Jew this was an abomination to say someone died as a sacrifice for Sin. But the Gospel is just that and through Him we now have access to the Father, not according to how much we have laid down, or how holy we appear but according to the Work of Christ, I stand on Nothing less but Jesus Christ and His Righteousness! :) I really don't know how much I have added or taken away from this thread but I do hope I have added.

This is how I see the Gospel a devoted life is simply the side-effects of Belief, so to speak.

"29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath NEVER FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jesus is speaking here of complete and deliberate disbelief and then accrediting the Good things of the Holy Spirit, the Power of Healing, to Satan and his demons. In their deliberate disbelief they called what was UNDENIABLY GOD, a work of Satan. This is the Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, to completely and utterly deny the very obvious before you and calling God's undeniable work Satan's work. It stems from willful disbelief and it is willful disbelief that is the slippery slope of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

*Edited for Grammar*

LOL I meant to say slippery slope, I work the graveyard shift at my work and sometimes my brain doesn't type what I want it to thus causing some confusion. My apologies :)