2 Thesalonians 2 The coming of Jesus and our gathering to him

2Th 2:1 And, brothers, we entreat you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together to Him,
2Th 2:2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.

(Paul said that we now know what is holding back the coming of Jesus is because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2 )

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until he comes out of the midst.
Paul has just clearly identified who the person is that is holding back in verse 3 and 4 and said in verse 6 now you know who is holding back as Paul has just told the reader
When Paul wrote the letter it was easily understood by the reader, and Paul had told them of the same before and he says to them now you know, Paul said do not be deceived .Paul’s Letter was to be simply read and understood, you do not write a letter to confuse or to be made a mystery.

( Even after Paul has clearly identified who the person (he) is there appears to still be confusion today with who this he is and some say that the he is the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in these verses and also when you open the scripture at any point in the Bible and there is a he word used this is a pronoun and a pronoun is always referring to the person that has been clearly identified in the preceeding verse or verses exactly the same with our English grammar an example is as follows;)
Also in the old King James the he word is not used in Capital Letters but as small print.

Luk 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
Luk 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Mar 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

(Having this in mind the he that Paul is referring to is (the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,) as this was the last person being spoken about before the statement he)

2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
2Th 2:6 And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken G1096 out of the way.G3319

There has also been a large misunderstanding with the words TAKEN and THE WAY
The TAKEN word does not mean to remove or to take away, quite the opposite
The taken word in the Greek is G1096

γίνομαι
gínomai; fut. genḗsomai, 2d aor. egenómēn, perf. part. gegenēménos, 2d perf. gégona, 2d pluperf. egegónein, aor. pass. egenḗthēn for egenómēn.

This verb is mid. deponent intrans. primarily meaning to begin to be, that is, to come into existence or into any state; and in the aor. and 2d perf. to have come into existence or simply to be.

This same Taken word is also used in other verses is scripture such as
1Th 1:5 For our gospel cameG1096 not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we wereG1096 among you for your sake.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done,G1096 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,

And the word WAY
WAY
G3319

μέσος
mésos; fem. mésē, neut. méson, adj. Middle, in the midst.
from, meaning from the midst, from among, away (Mat_13:49; Act_17:33; Act_23:10; 1Co_5:2; 2Co_6:17; Col_2:14; 2Th_2:7)

With all of the above in mind the verses are read like this

2Th 2:1 And, brothers, we entreat you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together to Him,
2Th 2:2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.
2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?
2Th 2:6 And now you know the falling away, and the man of sin the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
Is what is holding back, for him the Son of perdition to be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only the son of perdition is holding back now, until he comes into existence out of the midst of the peoples.
2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
2Th 2:9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
2Th 2:11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

Let us surrender all to our saviour knowing no matter what may come we will meet him in the air, and be with him forever more, Let us all be watching and ready.

Budgie, you write:

"2Th 2:6 And now you know the falling away, and the man of sin the son of perdition,

(2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2 )

Is the thing holding back, for him the Son of perdition to be revealed in his time. "

But verse 6 is not talking about someone or something holding (himself) back, but rather about the one who is holding him back, or restraining him.

Restrain is katechō G2722. It is not a reflexive verb, but active. There is something holding him back - the subject, and there is someone being held back - the object. Your understanding makes katecho a reflexive verb as if he was holding himself back, and this is not how the verb is used here.

I am not too conversant with the greek, but I believe "what witholds" in verse 6 is a neuter noun, (your version indeed says "the thing holding back") ; whereas there is a "him" also in verse 6 "for him to be revealed ", which is a masculine pronoun. So there are decidedly two parties being spoken of in this verse, the restrainer and the restrained.

David

Thanks for your reply

Paul started his letter by saying that Jesus cannot return until the falling away and the son of perdition is revealed, in this sense what and who is holding back the coming of Jesus has been clearly identified and must happen to fullfill prophecy.And Jesus stated that this person would be revealed and that Jesus would destroy him at his coming.

In that sense what is written in verse 6 is the person that Paul said is holding back the coming of Christ 'is the son of perdition as the subject' holding back the object Jesus, this keeps the verb as active and then the subject the son of perdition who is holding back will be revealed when he comes into existence out of the midst keeping him as a masculine pronoun, the son of perdition is waiting for the right time, the same as when he waited for when Jesus was born.
God is always in control, however prophecy must be fullfilled as Jesus has stated. The same as when Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him but allowed it to happen to fulfill prophecy
Do you agree that at any place that you open in scripture the person has been clearly identified before a pronoun such as he is used and that the 2nd person has been clearly identified when the person being referred to as a he has changed

Budgie, you say that "Paul started his letter by saying that Jesus cannot return until the falling away and the son of perdition is revealed." But that is not what the scripture says.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, BY the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.(or, is come). 2 Thess 2:1-2 (KJV)

Verse 1 is a common way of Paul's writing. He beseeches them by....It is the motive for what follows in verse 2; that they should not be troubled as if they were to be included in the judgments which the day of the Lord would usher in. They would be with Him before that day. When He is revealed from heaven on that day of judgement, the saints will have rest ch1 v7.

Paul is re-empasising what he had already taught in the first letter, that the coming of our Lord for his saints (our gathering to Him), and the coming of the Lord with his saints (The day of the Lord) are seperate events. We are to look look earnestly for the former, and not be troubled about the latter.

As to a pronoun identifying the last person named; I accept it as generally to be true, but I am not sure which specific verse you are talking about.
.
Phanetheus,

I understand the sense in which the Holy Spirit is being spoken of here, and especially in the church. But I can also accept that God has instituted governments as the powers that be, ordained by God to restrain evil, and hold back the wicked one until his time.

David

Phanetheus, thank you for your comments

In verse 6 of the chapter, "what withholdeth" is "το κατεχον ", which is neuter.

I have looked in the context of the surrounding verses, and, except for one, all the other nouns are masculine or feminine.

The only neuter noun in the context is "mystery" - "μυστηριον"; as in "the mystery of iniquity does already work."

A study of all the mysteries of the new testament is always beneficial. Perhaps you know of a site where this mystery of iniquity is expounded.

So, if the thing which withholdeth is the mystery of iniquity, does this help our understanding of the passage? Or does the mystery of iniquity include an understanding of all the reference to the wicked one, the antichrist, the believing the lie, the falling away and the Day of the Lord?

David

Twin?

"I" don't believe so.

John 14:23-26 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love ((me,)) he will keep ((my)) words: and **my** Father will love him, and ((we)) will come unto him, and make ((our)) abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, ((but the Father's which sent me.)) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet (who's presence?) present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

All three, Trin; Jesus, The Father, The Comforter Holy Spirit.

About 2 Thess, Do we really believe that the timing of the end times is up to Satan, man, Nations or any thing else that puts itself above God. Sounds like giving satan the credit for Gods timing and Christs Cross. "The unpardonable sin"?

Twin takes away the birthing of Christ in the believer, the incorruptable Seed of the Father, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". "New Creature, New Creation life".

In Christ: Phillip

(Having this in mind the he that Paul is referring to is (the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,) as this was the last person being spoken about before the statement he) 2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2 2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you? 2Th 2:6 And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken G1096 out of the way.G3319

The pronoun "he" confuses some people. in verse 4&6 he refers to the anti-Christ, while in verse 7 he refers to the Church.

2:8 And then ( after the taking away of the church, the Rapture) shall that Wicked ( The anti Christ) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This verse proves the Rapture of the church takes place before the Great tribulation(Matthew 24: 21)

Great job on your study. I will have to spend some time with your post (notes) and re-study 2Th. Again great job.

Krautfrau, you write among other things

"The man of sin, or the old man, is revealed when the curtain in the temple, or the veil in our hearts, is torn in two by the coming again of Jesus when He baptises in the Spirit."

This seems to me, my friend, to show clearly the way you understand, or should I say misunderstand the scriptures.

By completely spiritualising the"man of sin", you are denying the literal fulfillment. By making this man of sin the same as "the old man" (which it is not), you are denying that Christ has put to death our old man on the cross.

By spiritualising the second coming of Christ and making it equivalent to the baptism in the Holy Ghost, you are denying the truth of His actual physical second coming.

Sorry, but in no way can I go along with what you write.

David

Christ alive in the flesh body made for Him, 1st coming to this earth.

Christ alive in the Born again, 1st coming of His 2nd coming to this earth in the Spirit of the believers the Father has given Jesus Christ for His Body the Church.

Christ in the resurrected, glorified body come to this earth, and touch down where He disapeared into heaven, coming in the clouds with the saints His body the whole Chruch, the 2nd part of His 2nd coming or His third coming of total.

Do we believe He came in the flesh as the only begotten Son of God by Holy Spirit birth through His mother Mary?

Do we believe He is come in the flesh of the believers, which is also the temple of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory in this flesh temple quickened to contain the Whole of God nature as sons' of God.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

"Is Come"; Strong's Greek Dictionary
2064. erchomai
Search for G2064 in KJVSL
ercomai erchomai er'-khom-ahee
middle voice of a primary verb

(used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice)

eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho,

which do not otherwise occur)

to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Is He come? Yes, Amen.

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Are we made perfect in Christ to the Father now?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Perfect; Strong's Greek Dictionary
5046. teleios
Search for G5046 in KJVSL
teleioV teleios tel'-i-os
from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

See Greek 5056Strong's Greek Dictionary
5056. telos
Search for G5056 in KJVSL
teloV telos tel'-os
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid):--+ continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare 5411.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
5411. phoros
Search for G5411 in KJVSL
joroV phoros for'-os
from 5342; a load (as borne), i.e. (figuratively) a tax (properly, an individual assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a general toll on goods or travel):--tribute.

Only Paul knew how the human being works when it comes to salvation and perfection in Christ, not the old man mind which we still wrestle with, but the new creation life in Christ Jesus our Lord and new Life in God by Christ Jesus.
Body quickened to contain the whole of God, The Father and Jesus Christ making their abode with us and the Holy Spirit in us forever.

In Christ: Phillip

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (KJV) 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ (day of the Lord) that Paul is referring to in this scripture is also the coming judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 (KJV) 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul does not want them to be troubled about this Day of the Lord being at hand because it is darkness and not light and we are children of light so that that day will not overtake us.

Notice 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

They were supposed to be ready for the rapture because the rapture will take place before His wrath is poured out because He has not appointed His children to wrath.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When the rapture takes place those who are born of God will meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I believe this will take place before He comes in flaming fire taking vengeance on them who know not God and did not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was not telling them in Thessalonica not to worry that the rapture was at hand because that is the Christians hope of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to rapture His church.. He did not want them to be troubled that the horrible day of the Lord was at hand. He let them know that -that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

The rapture will be a meeting in the air before the wrath of God is revealed on the day of the Lord. The destruction that takes place on the day of the Lord will not be directed toward the church of the first born. The blood bought church will meet Jesus in the air before He destroys the wicked. We are His body the fullness of Him who fills all in all. The body will be with their head (the Lord Jesus Christ) and they will meet Him in the air when He comes. Those who are saved during the great tribulation were not a part of the blood bought church to be able to meet Him in the air.

Colossians 3:3-4 (KJV) 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

There will be a meeting in the air before their will be a meeting of destruction on earth. One thing I believe the scriptures clearly teach is that the church will be delivered from the wrath to come. I cannot tell for sure when the rapture will take place but I know he has not appointed His children to wrath.

Blessings to all!

So Jesus is coming back two more times? Once to meet us in the air and once at the very end? With respect, I don't see that in my bible.

So Jesus is coming back two more times? Once to meet us in the air and once at the very end? With respect, I don't see that in my bible.

I don't believe the bible teaches that he is coming back 2 more times either. He is only coming back to earth one time to destroy the wicked. The rapture is a meeting in the air because when Christ who is our life shall appear then shall we who's life is hid with Christ in God shall appear with Him in glory.

The main reason of his coming back is not just to destroy the wicked but to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all them that believed.

As I live saith the Lord the whole earth shall be filled with my glory.

His saints are seated with Him in heavenly places and when Christ who is our life appears then shall we also appear with Him in Glory. When Jesus comes back to earth His saints will be with Him. Those who are in Christ Jesus will be with Him when he returns to earth because He is our life.

Just as a human body can't live separated from its head neither can Christ body live apart from Christ. Wherever He is we will be with him. Jesus is not visible in the clouds nor on earth right now only the Holy Spirit is on earth in Christ body. As soon as Christ becomes visible in the air His body will be caught up to meet Him and so shall we ever be with the Lord. When He comes back to earth His body of saints will be with Him.

Praise God for ever! I'm not looking for the undertaker but I'm looking for the uppertaker.

Even so, come Lord Jesus, your bride waits.

It still amazes me that there is no mention of the church in 2 Thess 7 but there is an assumption that it is the church being spoken of as because of 'The Taken out of the Way', but this taken word does not mean to remove quite the opposite it means to come into existence.

Also in Revelation 20 It speaks of the coming of Jesus and Satan being bound and the Beast and False Prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire at his coming and in verse 5 that this is the First Resurrection and that those that are in the first resurrection will not have to fear the second death and that the second resurrection will be after the 1000 year reign.

This clearly states that this is the first resurrection.

It says in Corinthians 15;20 that Jesus is risen from the dead and he is the first fruits of them that slept and in verse 23 that everyone in his order Christ the first fruits and (afterward they that are Christs at his coming).

The above verse clearly that Jesus is the First risen from the dead in the incorruptible body and that all of the rest will be risen at his coming.

It also says in 51 to 54 that we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet and the dead shall be raised incorruptible.

The above in Revelations clearly shows that the First resurrection does not take place until when Jesus comes and destroys the Beast and False Prophet and Binds Satan and in Corinthians that the resurrection happens in a twinkling of an eye not over a period of time also in 1 Peter we read of our resurrection

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in Heaven for you
1Pe 1:5 the ones in the power of God being guarded through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time;
1Pe 1:6 in which you exult; yet a little while, if need be, grieving in manifold trials,
1Pe 1:7 so that the proving of your faith, much more precious than perishing gold, but having been proved through fire, may be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

All of the above verses ties in with the Books of Revelation, Daniel, Joel, Matthew as well as various other Books.

Romans 11 speaks of us Gentiles being of a wild olive tree being grafted into the Pure Olive Tree because of some of the branches of Israel being being broken off because of their unbelief, Jesus made the new covenant with Israel after he fullfilled all of the handwritten requirements and he came firstly to Israel, I am so thankfull that we have been grafted in, we are part of the new covenant promise, Jesus still loves Israel.