The rapture and the resurrection

It's common believed by many that when a early secret rapture of the church occurs that the righteous dead in Christ will be raised when this event occurs.

13 - But we don't want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 - Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 - Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Those verses above are those usually presented as those describing the rapture of the church and Paul is telling them to not grieve for believers who are dead because they will be raised even before the living believers and meet the Lord in the air. And that will occur before the time known as the Great Tribulation. Then after this rapture comes the Great Tribulation which ends with the second coming of Christ. The Bible portrays the Great Tribulation as a time of evangelization and when many converts to Christ will be made and some or many of them will lose their life during this time.

"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death." (Rev 12:11).

9 - And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of his anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in thepresence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 - And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and his name, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

12 - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 "And I heard a loud voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on! "Yes," says the Spirit, "That they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them." (Rev 14:9-13)

That's just an example of persevering believers dying during the Tribulation - "those who die in the Lord from now on."

My question is when will those who "die in the Lord" during the Tribulation be resurrected? I've always been taught there is only one resurrection of the righteous and it was commonly believed throughout church history that this would occur at the second coming of Jesus. So, if the righteous dead are resurrected at the secret early rapture and those who die in the Lord during the Tribulation are resurrected at the second coming of Christ doesn't that make two resurrections of the righteous? And where are two resurrections of the righteous taught in scripture?

4 - And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgments were given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon thier forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life (were resurrected) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 - The rest of the dead (the unrighteous)did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection;

6 - Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these will the second death have no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6)

We see clearly the first resurrection of the righteous is only portrayed once. Yet if there is a secret rapture in which the righteous dead are raised then what of those who give up their life during the Tribulation because of their faith in Jesus? When will they be resurrected? If they are resurrected at the second coming of Christ, well after the secret rapture, then there are two resurrections of the righteous that are to occur. It says nothing of the righteous dead who "die in the Lord" during the tribulation having to wait a thousand years to be resurrected. How is this uncharted scriptural territory to be navigated? Does believing in an early pre-trib rapture require one to believe in two resurrections of the righteous?

Hi docs,I am not going to answer your question but a few months ago I was looking and thinking about the scripture
.
51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

And I noticed this that its the changing of our bodies that happens in the twinkling of eye not the rapture.The changing of our bodies is only part of the rapture.
If we then look back to other translations we will see that they in fact may have took seconds or maybe a minute or two.What importance is this you may ask?
Well it means that there cannot be a secret rapture because the rapture isnt instantaneous.Also it is probably visible to the non christian and so will cause great reaction in them.What this reaction is I could only guess but fear would part of it,yours Staff

Hello
Could you please give me the scripture or scriptures that clearly says that the Rapture of the church,(Jews and Gentiles) which Paul speaks of in Romans 11 (as the Gentiles being the wild branch being grafted into the olive tree Israel) is before the Tribulation Period?

Who was the first fruits of the resurrection? Who will be the second fruits, and the third fruits or the resurrection?

Does it matter which resurrection we are in? It is all resurrection, not a first, second and third, but it is all resurrection, revealed perfect in Gods timing.

In Christ: Phillip

I certainly would like to no more, If Paul and Jesus both spoke of not being decieved regarding his coming and to be alert and ready, I for one want to know and to preach to others what is true regarding the coming of our Lord and savior, I do not want to be decieved, or to be found guilty of false teaching that could cause another to stumble.
Today especially I know it is most important to be building our relationship with our Lord and to be dieing daily as well as taking up our cross so that Jesus may be glorified in our bodies and that we may Know his resurrection power in our lives.
There will come a time where many will be chasing after Jesus or should I say who they think is Jesus, because they are not aware and not taught the Truth of his coming.

Any ideas?

It says in Corinthians 15;20 that (Jesus is risen from the dead and he is the first fruits) of them that slept and in verse 23 that everyone in his order (Christ the first fruits) and afterward (they that are Christs at his coming).

The above verse clearly that Jesus is the First risen from the dead in the incorruptible body and that all of the rest will be risen at his coming.

I think that art kaatz which is on this website speaks a great insight and truth into this subject and the purpose of the church.
I know that all would benefit from his teaching
His videos I find are good to watch

This is addressed to budgie. Hi bro. You asked if any scriptures could be shown that specified a rapture of the church before the Tribulation. I wasn't sure if you were asking me or one of the others who replied. If it was me, I don't believe there are any scriptures showing a secret pre-rapture before the beginning of the time known as the Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble. I know I was tired and I think it was late when I put my post together and just now I went back and corrected more than one typo which I somehow passed over at that time. I see I could have been more clear. I said, "Those verses above are those usually presented as those describing the rapture of the church" and I could have said, "Those verses above are usually presented as those describing from my viewpoint what is the supposed rapture of the church before the tribulation."

There is a lot at stake in my opinion in this issue and I have been thinking and trying to logically piece together the pre-trib rapture belief and how the sequence in which it is presented lines up with what is described in scripture as the "first resurrection" which is the resurrection of the righteous. It seems to me that if one believes in a rapture before the Great Tribulation at which the righteous of all ages are resurrected and meet the Lord in the air then how can this resurrection precede the first resurrection which Rev 20:4-6 shows happens at the second coming of Christ after the tribulation. If the resurrection of the righteous after the tribulation (including any righteous who did during the Tribulation) is described by Scripture as the first resurrection then what was the resurrection at the supposed pre-trib rature seven or three and a half years ealier? It was first so why isn't it referred to as the "first resurrection?" It seems it would of had to be the first resurrection. I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture but I'm wondering how this seeming contradiction is explained by those who do. I know I've went over some of the same ground I covered in my first post.

Art Katz has had my attention since 1973 bro. I understand the burden he had for the church in this area. No problem there.

Thanks.

Thanks DOCS for your reply
I had not specifically asked you for a reply as I was putting it out there for any replys
I am new to this discussion forum and slowly getting used to it
I find it a great benefit to many to see how scripture can be discussed and truth to be found

Thanks again DOCS for your reply

I find this topic very interesting in todays environment

Resurrection is resurection and what we do know for sure is that Jesus was first. What about those that came out of the graves and walked in Jerusalem when Jesus was resurrected. The rapture, meet the Lord in the air. Even the two witnesses that are raised on the third day, Those that did not take the mark and lost their heads. Those that wait until the 1000 years are up and appear before God at the Great White Throne Judgement.

All are resurrection, all in God's timing and in order.

In Christ: Phillip

As far as the rapture question is concerned, pre-trib or post-trib, the proper sequence of the first resurrection in the line of events is more than a little important in my opinion. I don't think it hurts to try and fine tune one's faith and what they believe. I want to know what I am about as clearly and specifically as possible.

According to Rev 6:10-12, the first resurrection (Rev 20:1-5) must await the final persecution and the destruction of the beast. In fact, the first resurrection receives its very designation as “first” in direct connection with the tribulation martyrs that were beheaded by the “last” beast (Rev 20:4), and it is clear that this beast is not destroyed until the Lord’s return (Dan 7:11, Rev 19:20, II Thes 2:8) at “the great day of God almighty” (Rev 16:13-16).

If a early secret rapture (a second coming before the second coming) is to occur then the righteous saints who are supposedly to be resurrected and changed then would have to be the first resurrection. Only to have another resurrection of the righteous later at the second coming of Christ which would make that a second resurrection. If we're to all be changed and translated at the "last trumpet" (I Cor 15:52) then how can a trumpet that sounded seven or three and a half years earlier be legitimately be called the last trumpet when Christ spoke of a trumpet sounding at His second coming.

30 - and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man comng on the clouds of heaven with power and with great glory.

31 - And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to another.

Ther's no other trumpet mentioned after this trumpet so it is the last. How can a trumptet years earlier be designated the last if there's another to come? This trumpet Jesus spoke of at His coming is the last trumpet and occurs at the first resurrection. There can't be two first resurrections, one at an early rapture and one at the second coming. I'll go with the first resurrection at the second coming which won't be a second coming after an earlier second coming.

Docs, you write

"I don't think it hurts to try and fine tune one's faith and what they believe. I want to know what I am about as clearly and specifically as possible."

But you must understand that we who believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church, see the book of Revelation in a completely different way from the way you have expounded these verses. For us, the book of Revelation (except of course for chapters 2 and 3 ) is not about the church at all. Rather it is written as a prophesy of the details of Daniel's 70th week. Because of this, it is about "Daniel's people", the Jews. The church, His heavenly people, has necessarily been taken up before this and so God can continue His work with Israel, His earthly people.

The verse you mentioned in chapter 6 verse 9 - the fifth seal, shows the souls of those, the remnant of Israel, slain for the word of God. Their language "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth" (v 10), is clearly not the language of christians, who are called upon to love their enemies. Such language, calling for vengeance and judgement, can be found in many places, prophetically in the psalms, and is the cry of the remnant of Israel during the tribulation time.

The main earthly setting of the book is Jerusalem, or mount Sion, although there are heavenly scenes too. The 144000 are so clearly Israel and not christians.

If you cannot see that this is the plain literal understanding we are to have, then clearly it is pointless to argue about the first resurection, trumpets or the rapture., which we have done many times before.

David

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Budgie, it's good to quote scripture, but what are you saying about this passage.

Romans 11 like the book of Revelation can be interpreted from both points of view.Verse 15 is the critical verse which is the fulcrum of the disagreement.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Some say that "the receiving of them" refers to Jews becoming christians in this present church age, which puts a whole new interpretation on the complete passage. Others , like myself, say it refers to the future age when all Israel will be saved; the church, His bride being already with Him.

The main difference in all these things is our understanding of God's ways with the church, His heavenly people and Israel, His earthly people.

In the past, up to Pentecost, and in the future, during the tribulation and afterwards, He is dealing with Israel. From Pentecost to the Rapture of the church, He is dealing with us, His Heavenly people.

Any attempt to see both peoples as the same will result in muddled thinking and misinterpretaion of all scripture - in my view.

David

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

I can only believe what is in scripture that says that the old covenant with Israel was made new with a new covenant and better covenant that was more glorious and I am so glad that God who is rich in mercy has grafted us into the new covenant with Israel.
Neither jew or gentile in Jesus we are all his body, some of Israel did not believe, but God
He came first for Israel.
God have mercy on us all, but for the Grace of God I stand

I went ahead and pasted your reply to me below for sake of reference. After it I make a reply and some comments.

(BEGIN)
Docs, you write

"I don't think it hurts to try and fine tune one's faith and what they believe. I want to know what I am about as clearly and specifically as possible."

But you must understand that we who believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church, see the book of Revelation in a completely different way from the way you have expounded these verses. For us, the book of Revelation (except of course for chapters 2 and 3 ) is not about the church at all. Rather it is written as a prophesy of the details of Daniel's 70th week. Because of this, it is about "Daniel's people", the Jews. The church, His heavenly people, has necessarily been taken up before this and so God can continue His work with Israel, His earthly people.

The verse you mentioned in chapter 6 verse 9 - the fifth seal, shows the souls of those, the remnant of Israel, slain for the word of God. Their language "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth" (v 10), is clearly not the language of christians, who are called upon to love their enemies. Such language, calling for vengeance and judgement, can be found in many places, prophetically in the psalms, and is the cry of the remnant of Israel during the tribulation time.

The main earthly setting of the book is Jerusalem, or mount Sion, although there are heavenly scenes too. The 144000 are so clearly Israel and not christians.

If you cannot see that this is the plain literal understanding we are to have, then clearly it is pointless to argue about the first resurection, trumpets or the rapture., which we have done many times before. END)

Me: I appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts. I commented a little about fine tuning one's faith etc. Where I guess I was coming from was that for a long while I've not really sorted out some of the details regarding the resurrection, trumpets and the rapture and the like. It was just like well, just believe and be ready. That's fine to a degree but I'm finding and have found in the last couple of years that it is possible in my opinion to sort out some of the details and come to a better understanding of some the events. So I wasn't trying to be snarky or anyting in that regard. It was rather that it is good to come to a better understanding.

Meanwhile, I found some of your comments a bit intriguing and they raised a number of questions in my mind as to what you meant.

You said,

"But you must understand that we who believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church, see the book of Revelation in a completely different way from the way you have expounded these verses. For us, the book of Revelation (except of course for chapters 2 and 3 ) is not about the church at all. Rather it is written as a prophesy of the details of Daniel's 70th week. Because of this, it is about "Daniel's people", the Jews. The church, His heavenly people, has necessarily been taken up before this and so God can continue His work with Israel, His earthly people."

Me: I'm not of the opinion that is correct. The word "church" may not be used after chapter three in Revelation but if the book started out talking to the church then who else would it be talking to in the rest of the book is my question. It talks of saints and persevering and maintaining one's faith and patience and many having their robes washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:13-14) during the tribulation. It speaks of overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of one's testimony and loving not one's life unto the death and of being pursued because of having and keeping the testimony of Christ. In light of that, it's hard to believe that the book isn't talking to the church after chapter three. Who else would the book be speaking of seeing as how it contains many such references.

You said,

"The verse you mentioned in chapter 6 verse 9 - the fifth seal, shows the souls of those, the remnant of Israel, slain for the word of God. Their language "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth" (v 10), is clearly not the language of christians, who are called upon to love their enemies. Such language, calling for vengeance and judgement, can be found in many places, prophetically in the psalms, and is the cry of the remnant of Israel during the tribulation time."

Me: I'll type out that particular section of scripture.

9 - And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained.

10 - and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

11 - And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also. (Rev 6:9-11)

The way I look at that is that this group may contain a number of the remnant of Israel but it could also be portraying any who have been slain during this time because of the word of God and the testimony they kept. You say this group is voicing language that is "clearly not the language of Christians." Yet these souls are portrayed as having come out of the tribulation and they are in heaven. How would they get to heaven if they are not Christians? And they were slain because of the word of God and the testimony they kept. Why were they given a white robe? And you maintain they are not Christians? It's somewhat confusing to me also to hear that their attitude is somewhat below that of Christians because they are crying out for vengance. The remnant of Israel that has died and are obviously with the Lord (possible only because of being saved) are displaying a non Christian attitude? That's the first time I have ever heard that.

You said,

"The main earthly setting of the book is Jerusalem, or mount Sion, although there are heavenly scenes too. The 144,000 are so clearly Israel and not christians."

If my perception is correct, the 144,000 are usually seen by many as 144,000 evangelists, probably Jewish evangelists, that will be sent out to preach the gospel to Israel during the time of the final tribulation. In Rev 14:1, the 144,000 are seen as standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb "having His name (the Lamb) and the name of His Father written on their foreheads." In Rev 14:4 they are said to "follow the Lamb wherever He goes and they have been purchased from among men and are first fruits to God and to the Lamb." How were they purchased and from what (sin?) were they purchased? They have the name of the Lamb and God on their foreheads and they are first fruits to God and the Lamb. I don't see how it could be any clearer that they are more than likely Christians. And if this 144,000 are called and commissioned to to preach the gospel during the tribulation how can they not be Christians? It's the gospel they will be preaching!!! And how will those who respond to their message and become saved not become Christians?

I might add,

13 - And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?"

14 - And I said to him, "My Lord, you know." And He said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

I've always been taught that those who have had their robes washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb are Christians. Revelation shows that many wil experience this during the great tribulation. How can they be categorized as not being Christians? By saying these people are Christians you may mean they are not part of the church but being washed in the blood of the Lamb always make sone part of the church.

You said,

"If you cannot see that this is the plain literal understanding we are to have, then clearly it is pointless to argue about the first resurection, trumpets or the rapture., which we have done many times before."

Me: How can any plain literal reading of the book of Revelation and reading therein of belonging to the Lamb and having His name written on one's forehead and being washed in the bloood of the Lamb be literally seen as not speaking of Christians? By saying it does not refer to Christians you may mean to say that they don't belong to the church as some belief systems advocate. But if being washed in the bloood of the Lamb doesn't make one a member of the church then what does? Why would one go out and preach the gospel during the tribulation if they are not Christians? Saying otherwise is a confusing befuddlement to me.

To Docs

I have been directed by God for the last ten years in studying the scriptures regarding the coming of our Lord and savior and the many doctrines and theories of men regarding the one and only one truth regarding his coming in scripture.
Paul stated that there was only one doctrine on the resurrection and it was one of the foundational and clearly understood teachings that was from the Old Testament when Paul was alive.
The New testament was not written until later and clearly aligns with the Old Testament.
Jesus also spoke regarding the Resurrection and his coming from Old Testament, the New testament also aligns with what he says, especially the Book of Revelation.
Jesus has taken me to many of the scriptures regarding all of the different theories of men and one by one Jesus has opened up each verse and with each verse He has said to me to believe exactly each verse in what it says and to find the misunderstanding of men that is in each verse.
Many of the misunderstandings that have been made are by trying to back up a theory and thus the verses have been changed to fit the theories.
The Greek meanings add truth and the way the same words spoken are used in other verses.
Scripture always interprets scripture
One example of these is the First resurrection spoken of in Revelations.
If it says it is the first resurrection then it is the first resurrection and that is the resurrection of us in our new uncorrupt bodies the same as Jesus.
There have been many resurrections in scripture that even took place before Jesus on the third day in his new uncorrupt body but they were not as Jesus body was. Jesus was the First fruit in the new uncorrupt body and it says that the rest of the first fruit will be at his coming.
Lazurus was brought back from the dead after he had been dead for three days but it was not in the uncorrupt body.

DOCS Do not let go of the truth that God has placed on your heart DOCS I am encouraging you to continue to seek truth and to continue to believe what Paul has stated in scripture that Jesus will not come and we will not be gathered to Jesus, Paul is also including himself in that verse until the Falling away and the man of sin is revealed WHO JESUS WILL DESTROY WITH HIS COMING

GOD bless you DOCS

May all who seek be challenged to believe exactly what scripture says and study to know why it says what it says and in the context spoken
May we all encourage each other to seek Jesus so that what ever may come Jesus will find faith in our hearts to the point where as Jesus spoke in Matthew we will face death but to not fear he will give us the strength and the words to speak as Stephen did as he was stoned to death.
In our weakness we may experience Gods strength.
Paul devoted time and others to search the scriptures and to preach one true doctrine.
Let us find Unity in Doctrine as Paul encouraged.

We should not expect to experience any less than our Savior Jesus who was willing to lay down his life for us.
God give us strength each day to not be ashamed of the gospel
It is so important to build the faith of each other and to encourage to seek Jesus, Jesus and Paul said to not be decieved and to not be troubled when events take place, they said it so that we would be aware and to not be shaken let us encourage each other and to look up.
Corie Ten Boom has great sermons on tribulation as well as Art Kaatz.