hi all
i am seeking those brothers and sisters that have read the unabridged version of the war on saints and saw the meat that was in it. i know the different arguments against the book on this site and through out the internet and i am only looking to hear from people that saw what God was truly doing with it. I'm not after opinions about the book but insight-please pm me
I wonder how many have read Nee's "The Latent Power of the soul"? ... for some thoughts, piggy-backed onto your inquirey.
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/5f00.0634/5f00.0634.c.htm
Thanks!!
Hi,
here is the full un-abridged version online for free:
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/index.html
Oops, realized the confusion that may come from my post.
I first heard Jessie Penn-Lewis' name from this book "The Latent Power of the soul" by Nee and have two copies of W.O.T.S. on my book shelf.
Didn't mean that I wanted any PMs about Nee's book :)
Just feel it should be required reading in these days though.
My only 'thing' with J.P.L. is that I believe, Scripturally, that a truly born-again Christian cannot be demon "possessed".
Thought I should clear that much up because I actually don't care for PMs. Thanks!!
My only 'thing' with J.P.L. is that I believe, Scripturally, that a truly born-again Christian cannot be demon "possessed".
I agree! Amen!
thankyou for your replies
it wouldnt be wise for me to give my standpoint on certain issues that people have with the book. but what i will say is that over the last week God has been setting me free in many areas of my life. i havent been able to budge these things in my life for over 21 years and i have read alot and heard many good christian preachers in those years. It is the spirit of truth that i seek and his unveiling of my eyes and ears to percieve and understand his righteousness. on the day of Judgement i am accountable to the King of Kings for every word that is on my heart and procedeth out of my mouth. God has released me from the chains of Satan and has washed the stench of my clothes that has been drenched in the fowlness of this world that is ruled by lies and corrupts the heart and soul of mankind. I have crucified my members of unrighteousness so that i may live
with him (rom 6:6-13) i have not walked into a church for at least five years that has not been run by the world. The true authority of jesus christ is not working in them as they are blind to what is happening spiritually. My heart breaks for the captives which cry out at every corner to be free of the same chains that have bound me. To say that a christian cannot be possessed is a very bold statement and not one that i personally would take so lightly when speaking on the holy writ of God. to make much a statement is to say that you have an advanced knowledge of this through the old and new testiment and how they walk together from uncomplet to complet. JLP was able to do that with many scriptures.i how ever humble myself and say that i can not but what i do know is that as i submitted myself to the light of the truth the more i have found that i didnt know and that i was puffed up in my interlect which God couldnt use. im not saying you or i am wrong or right but what i am saying is the spirit of truth is always right and we can be at fault at anytime. the apostles wnet through the same struggles and at times it was jesus who revealed to them their corupt motives as they did not know that they were decieved in their statements. i know that i watched my friend who became a christian and he allowed (what i thought) a man of God to lay hands on him. after that for about 2 months he would awake at night violently shaking like electricity was going through his body. he cried out to jesus we prayed but it stayed like that for 2 months to a point where he was so frustrated he felt he was going mad but eventually it left. i testify to you that he was and is a christian today. So do i believe a christian can be possessed i believe that the spirit of truth will reveal the awnser to that question to those that seek it. and i am seeking it. I have seen devils cast out of people, my family and myself and what i find interesting is that not many people in the church see when people have them, some try with very little success and some just give them a few magical words and send them on their way. I know that the world is currently very caught up in the spriritual but yet i am witnessing a lack of spiritual discernment by christians in my life i have met 100's of pastors.and only 2 of them did i see the authority of christ when it came to devils and yet God commissions us to do so.
anyway i am sure that i may open a can of worms with my reply but in the end it is all about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit and that their will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
I appreciate Mrs. Penn-Lewis' book and she also had a wealth of experience behind what she wrote about. Her book is not a book of theory.
Sarah
Hi crusader. I don't believe you are opening a can of worms and don't believe you have a violent nature against what others believe... that's the difference with your thread and others from the past.
The work of Christ on the cross and His shed Blood is what is being watered down here and Satan is being given more power than what is Scriptural. Both of these from just one woman who wrote a book, that can't be backed with Scripture.
Most of her book was good and why I have kept the copies I have for 30 yrs or more, but the Christians can be demon "possessed" is not in any way provable Scripturally.
The whole of this book is based upon [as you've said] "experiences" and we're never to base beliefs on "experiences alone" without HIS WORD.
Christians can give the enemy a "foot-hold" by believing a lie and by rebellion but the "possessed" are not Saved.
IF - IF a person did not have her book or any other books except the Bible - would they come out with or come up with this teaching? No. It's not found in the Word and most especially not in the New Covenant/Testament that cost Christ His Blood.
Why do I feel to ask others to please stay with just their Bibles on this topic? Because I've seen the danger to those who don't know the Bible that well yet when they are exposed to false doctrine - but most especially one that puts them in fear because it gives Satan much more lee-way than Christ will allow with His Own.
Creator GOD will not co-habit in the same 'temple' with demons.
Temptations, attacks or Oppression is one thing - possession is 'Ownership'.
If there's anything that needs to be posted to threads like this one, it's Scripture and Scripture only - lest by believing a lie 'against' His Word, we open ourselves or others up for deception and unnecessary torment - besides a convienent excuse for our sin or actions or how we spend our time and thoughts. It's easy to blame what we choose to do on demons, when His Word says that we are to take control of ourselves - If we're truly Christians.
Going beyond what is written is extremely dangerous and it totally disregards the Author of His Book.
Peace to you, with our prayers.
Granny, I don't see any WORD in your post refuting what JPL says. Just a lot of your own words. If you can abide by your own advice, please refute what you don't agree with rather than being the one that tells us who is or is not "going beyond the Word". Quote her and show us in the Word where you disagree with her, but don't tell us what to think by your own words.
In order to correctly make use of any one word used in the Bible - one Must see How it is used - in context.
This is the word translated "possessed of a or of devils". Looking at these verses in context - these people were Not Saved.
These are the Only places that this word "possessed" is found and these devils 'needed' to be "cast Out" of these non-Spirit filled [unsaved] people.
G1139
δαιμονίζομαι
daimonizomai
Total KJV Occurrences: 25
possessed, 11
Mat_4:24, Mat_8:16, Mat_8:28, Mat_8:33, Mat_9:32, Mat_12:22, Mar_1:32, Mar_5:15-16 (2), Mar_5:18, Luk_8:36
devil, 7
Mat_9:32, Mat_15:22 (2), Mar_5:15-16 (2), Mar_5:18, Joh_10:21
devils, 6
Mat_4:24, Mat_8:16, Mat_8:28, Mat_8:33, Mar_1:32, Luk_8:36
---------------------------------------------------------
The point being - that only the unsaved can be "possessed" and need to have the demon(s) "cast out" of them.
Possessed means, indwelling. The losing of one's will to the power of an indwelling spirit. The "faculties" being under demonic "control", **over-riding self-will** - resident-in and 'ownership'.
Demons are "cast out of" the unsaved for the purpose of the propagation of the Gospel.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Next we would have to look at every verse that contains the words "cast out" [found 37 in the KJV] that is always connected with "possession" to see if we can find ANY instances where 'Born-Again, Spirit filled Christians' had demons "cast out" of them. Whenever there was a case of "possession" the demons Had to be "cast out".
Answer: Never happened with a true Spirit filled Christian in the whole of the Word of GOD!
Truly Born-Again Christians Can "cast-out" demons by His Authority for the propagation of the Gospel.
True Christians Can take authority In Christ over demonic activity.
True Christians need never fear demons or their activity because of WHO is resident within them - as long as they stick to His Word [their Sword of The Spirit], don't go beyond what is written and are not rebelious or have "hate" in their hearts. "Hate" is a good indicator that one is tipping toward danger in their spiritual walk.
'True' Christians cannot be demon "possessed", according to the New Testament.
Satan and his minions have no power over anything or anyone Unless GOD 'allow' it for The Good of His Saints but He will not share His 'temple' with demons.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell 'in' them, and walk 'in' them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Romans 8:28,29 stands forever!
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an 'habitation of God' through the Spirit.
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Read my signature ... it's His Word. He created, controls and gives restrictions to what demons can and can't do - like with the book of Job - most Especially over His Own Sheep = His Habitation.
The New Testament is such a tiny book Yet so many don't Know it - and that is synonymous with and caused by 'the loss of the love and the fear of The Word of GOD', Who 'is' GOD. No wonder there's no victory or witness coming from "the Church" because we've back-seated His Word to others to sit up front = because we don't Love His Word nor fear Him/The Word of GOD.
"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment:
because as He is, so are we in this world. "
"Acts Chpt 5"
" Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, and said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord. "
[Act 13:9-12]
" To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, 'that the spirit may be saved' in the day of the Lord Jesus. "
[1Co 5:5]
" This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. "
[1Ti 1:18-20]
" This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. "
[2 Tim 3:1-9]
Strongs is not God's Word.
What does it mean to be "with an unclean spirit"?
Mark 1:23
It is a rhetorical question. No answer needed because I know from your response, you don't know. (or you think you know).
Suffice it to say, many Christians today need to repent and be delivered from unclean spirits. Unless, ALL professing, TRUE believers are not engaged in any unclean sin. Unclean sin brings unclean spirits.
Seems we can spend time with the Holy Spirit or we can be with unclean spirits.
Luke 4:33 and Mar 5:2 are similar.
Mikey, we're talking about Spirit-filled Born Again Christians and the verses you are giving are not about a saved man.
About "unclean" ...
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
How can a person who has been made free by Christ, be devil possessed? They can be oppressed, but not possessed.
Suffice it to say, many Christians today need to repent and be delivered from unclean spirits. Unless, ALL professing, TRUE believers are not engaged in any unclean sin. Unclean sin brings unclean spirits.
Are they really saved if they are engaging in sin? Also, here is another thought: I have heard people refer to sin as being a demon. A sin is a transgression of the law of God. It's easy for people to place blame on a demon, rather than on themselves.
I understand perfectly what you are saying.
Christians, only, ever need to be delivered solely from sin, regardless of the type or degree of sin they are engaging in. Is that about right?
I just disagree and for the same reasons that JPL disagrees.
Many Godly men and women today, agree with her as well as many disagree. You can show both sides from scriptures.
Mikey wrote: "You can show both sides from scriptures."
I'd have to say conclusively that this is incorrect.
This is that 2% arsenic that has crept into an other wise 98% good teaching ... as is normally the case and why we see so many fall from the Truth of His Word concerning sin and the lack of witness through our victory in faith in His Word Alone and why this 'church' is so powerless.
If we knew His Word and it filled our thoughts, we would be doing "exploits" and casting out demons from those they 'can' "possess" and being quite a witness to this world.... instead we get thread after thread of defeated humans, crying that "the devil has got a hold of them."
Sad and unscriptural!
Our Brother JB 1968 is correct. We love to blame our own sin on the devil.
It's caused by the hatred or Neglect of GOD's Word, because His Word holds us 100% liable for our behavior - period.
We need to get back to just HIS Word concerning HIS Sheep. Amen!
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Amen, Jesus is God!
hi all
i so apreciate your aproach to this jesus-is-God and now for my own accountabilty for the words of my mouth, i will need to respond but not without carefull prayer and consideration of the intent behind the replies on this post. firstly it will not be my intent to change your stand point or others as that is the for the working of the Holy spirit. Secondly i can not take this principle lightly due to what i feel is a rather strong spiritual stronghold either way.
you are right about bringing personal experience into this can be dangerous which JPL speaks of as well. that is why i do not use my experiences to argue another persons statement but only my own position on the matter. how do we judge the fruits on a post, with great difficulty and how do we test every spirit behind what is posted with the same difficulty. Therefore great care must be taken in my responce. the reason i asked for Pm rather then discussion is because every reply needs to be judged and discerned so that God is fully glorified. That means study material and methods used in interpreting the word of God so that carnality can have no part in the revelation. With wisdom and guidence of the Lord it will be my intent to be bent with the word and not bending the word to suit my position. I can see the scriptures that you have presented but i also do not see them in the fullness of what they are saying.
so it may take me awhile to respond the way in which God wants me too and once again i say that i am not taking this from a position of who is right or wrong but rather that i am accountable and that my mind is renewed to the glory of God. :)
After seeking the Lord on the answer to this post, I believe the Lord lead me to the real issue that has happened on this post and it is a little leaven effects the whole bread on these discussion boards. A lot of people quote a lot of scripture to back up their standing point and sometimes page after page of scripture quotes. Not that I am against this but a very important spiritual principle seems to be ignored or veiled by many people and yet it is vital for Christians to live by in every aspect of our lives. This is the “intent” behind a person’s view point on a subject. The highlighted following scripture, is given to us to follow; 1 John 4:1 (KJV) “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” so from this we can see that we are to test every spirits whether they are of God or Not. This asks the question how do we test every spirit whether it is of God or not; below are few which I try to stand by;
1.\tRemove the plank from our own eye
2.\tThe fruits of a person either carnal minded or spiritually minded
3.\tThe intent of the post whether it is for self preservation of a view point or the denial of one’s self for the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ
4.\tinterpretation on the Holy writ of God and the way in which you walk through the word (study techniques)
5.\tBeing able to recognize the difference between the voice of the spirit of truth and our own carnal mind.
6.\tAllowing the Holy spirit to increase the truth of knowledge in both people
7.\tUnderstanding that only God knows the full intent of every mans heart where as man can only guess from the works of the flesh unless God quickens it to our spirit.
Brief Definitions of
INTENT: something that is intended, an aim or purpose
CONTEXT: the part of text or statement that sorrounds a particular word or passage and determines it’s meaning
Here are some examples of Context vs Intent
Mathew 22:16-17 (KJV) context
“And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
Mather 22:18 (KJV) Intent exposed )
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?”
Mathew 16: 23 (KJV) context
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mathew 16: 23 (KJV) Intent exposed
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
So this lead me to the main point of my response, What was my intent of this post either it was clear or unclear but I thought I had made it clear in the spirit of truth.
My Post
“ i am seeking those brothers and sisters that have read the unabridged version of the war on saints and saw the meat that was in it. i know the different arguments against the book on this site and through out the internet and i am only looking to hear from people that saw what God was truly doing with it. I'm not after opinions about the book but insight-please pm me”
Response in question
(Quote)
“My only 'thing' with J.P.L. is that I believe, Scripturally, that a truly born-again Christian cannot be demon "possessed". Thought I should clear that much up because I actually don't care for PMs. Thanks!!”
Did this response answer the intent of the post? Whenever we push a principle or a belief then it is to be tested as to what spirit it came from. Or though I use this as an example there are hundreds of posts where this is happening. The sad thing with this, is there are many babes in Christ who come onto this site to find answers and many times good saints have Given words which edify them and yet there are many more that are givec carnal answers that wound their spiritual walk. I have been a victim of this, on this site years ago and at the time i was suicidal and desperately seeking the truth. Babies in Christ are fresh in their renewing of the mind and often their context doesn’t exactly match their intent. What makes us different to worldly men and women is that, we are a spiritual thinking people who give truthful loving answers to the condition of the heart.
This is not a rebuke but a wakening call to all those that have ears and are long in their Christian walk, to stand up in these area’s for the sake of the Gospel and the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Watchmen, it is not a time to sleep as the church is under attack throughout the world.
The world has become an ocean of stench where Satan boldly walks around deceiving the saints. This is because principles are not being judged, it is easy to judge context any ungodly man can do this and quote scripture that is logical to the mind but to rightly judge the intent of the spirit behind the context with scripture, this is the work of true born again, spirit filled Christian who seeks the denial of themselves and gives all Glory to the Father, Lord Jesus Christ and Holy spirit.
My intent for this reply is for the spirit of truth to awaken and edify those that are Gods children including myself. I believe that God works on this site and the area that has been exposed is under the instruction of the Lord.
It is not a response that I wanted nor would i have gone down unless I felt it is what God wanted me to speak about. With the Love and peace of Jesus Christ. Karl
This discussion is locked.
