enough debate its about souls

E

Enochh Jul 11, 2011

I get so sad when I come on here....a place where I can find some real believers and I see what goes on. Example the "War on the saints" post. Back and forth bickering. Some one started a post asking a question and so many have to prove their much understanding of the scriptures and their intimate knowledge of the Lord and his ways to "prove" another brother/sister wrong and correct them. "Why not rather be wronged"..."knowledge puffs up ...love edifies" I mean who really cares. Billions of people are going to hell and we are arguing about whether a christian can be demon possessed. Well done thou good and faithful servant you won so many debates on SI. I doubt we will hear that. And the man going to hell could care less. Brothers and sisters we show our immaturity , pride , selfcenteredness when this is our focus.
lets join together stop the debating and get the job done the Master has called us to do. Oh Lord for one more soul I plead. Time is short .....Please Please focus on the task at hand lest when the Master comes He find You sleeping or in idle debate.

M

mguldner Jul 11, 2011

Agreed brother,

May I ask what do you do ini your area to spread the good news? Perhaps this thread can be a place of repentance and discussion on what really matters and the steps we take daily to reach the prize set before us. And yes we can all agree on this Christ is the driving force in it all without Him our work is vainity.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

Yes, sometimes the discussions on here get heated. We must also understand that Paul and Barnabas had a heated disagreement over the direction of their ministry… so much so that they parted ways. The Bible never records that episode as being sinful for either party. Both went on to effective ministries separately. All thru history we see heated debates over God’s Word… and whether we want to believe it or not the fact is that God worked much good thru those debates. And sometimes for both sides!

When a debate is motivated by flesh and pride we certainly do need to repent. I don’t think anyone here will argue about that even tho we can all get caught up in that.

But there are folks who come here who have a low view of theology and doctrine, and see no need for it… and do not wish to discuss the deeper things of God, and they view God as “love love love” and deny His other equal attributes. A lot of times (not always) these are the folks who accuse the brethren of being argumentative, unloving and divisive even over the lightest discussions of theology and doctrine.

Doctrine IS important, and we are commanded to “contend” for the faith.

Iron sharpens iron... and most of the doctrines that I hold to developed in me thru debating! Praise God.

I believe there is room for debate, even heated debate, so long as we keep our flesh and pride out of it and keep the glory of God as the focus.

Krispy

E

Enochh Jul 11, 2011

Krispykrittr...which by the way I love your tag. I am a doctrine junkie. I devour the writings of John Owen, Edwards, Towzer, Packer, Pink, Piper and so on. But being a former Word of Faith Pastor who God graciously saved from that cult I was never won over (this is just me I understand not everyone) to ,for example, the Sovereignty of God, by debate but by the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

I understand Enoch's concern as it is about sharing the gospel. As one who came out of a system of theology that will be unnamed I saw more debates than soul winning. To my shame even participated in those debates. BUT there are times we have to contend for the very gospel we are to share. This forum has already pointed out how Islam is being promoted by evangelical churches. The synergy of Christianity and Islam is giving rise to a heresy known as chrislam. Just one more heresy among many to contend against. We need to be balanced as the apostle Paul. Paul was fervent in his preaching of Christ. Yet he would contend for the gospel when necessary. May we be as he.

G

ginnyrose Jul 11, 2011

I believe there is room for debate, even heated debate, so long as we keep our flesh and pride out of it and keep the glory of God as the focus.

Discuss the issue and not take pot shots at the speaker... :-)

S

savannah Jul 11, 2011

point taken...BUT...

Souls are only won by Gospel Truth. God alone regenerates and adopts us into His family.

There are many who are merely reproducing themselves by their false gospel,and growing in great numbers,their own kingdoms. Not only do the blind leaders fall into the ditch, but those they lead as well.

I have been to almost 60 churches in the last 4 years. You won't find much debating in most churches, as everyone pretty much just does what is right in their own eyes.

Certainly there is unhealthy debating and probably too much of it, but what there is not enough of is debate which is healthful for the soul.

If we had no enemies of the Gospel I'd heartily agree that debates should cease. But Gospel Truth is rare in this our day.

A false god can only produce a false gospel.
We must not only believe the truth but love the truth.
Love is defined by Truth. And no lie is of the Truth.
All is tainted when the God of Truth is misrepresented.
We are commanded to Love the LORD our God with all our heart,with all our mind,and with all our strength.
A mind which believes what is false is in danger of hell fire. There is "another gospel","another spirit",and "another jesus".
It will do us well to examine ourselves and our doctrine. Because what we believe ultimately determines what we do.
An extreme example would be those who believe in universal salvation. Not only is such a lie, but it could lead one to live in a manner not worthy of the Gospel.
More might be said, but I'll say no more!

God alone saves.

Psalm 121:1-8

Matthew 1:21 And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

Yes Enochh, it 'is' about souls and if you had seen the fruit of a certain belief destroy souls, would you not speak up? In this case, you mention the belief that "christians can be demon possessed".

I felt just the opposite of what you are expressing.
I felt, where are those who claim to care for souls on this thread - that believe from The Word of GOD that Christians Can-Not be "possessed" by both The Spirit of Creator GOD and devils at the same time.

I felt - don't they care for souls? Why are they being silent because I know there are others here that do not believe this teaching but why do they allow others to believe this and be tormented by this thought for the rest of their lives, every time Satan whispers a lie into their minds.

I felt they just didn't care enough for souls - just as you all feel that we should just remain quiet on this thing.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

Dont misunderstand me... we can and do get out of balance. Among believers tho, debate and discussing doctrine can be healthy when done in a spirit of love and understanding.

Of course we do not debate with unbelievers. With unbelievers we DECLARE. There is no debate.

Enoch... sounds like our back grounds are similar. I took the looooooooonng journey from WOF to reformed. Took over 10 years (I'm a slow learner and thick in the skull). I learned a tremendous amount when I joined this site and debated and discussed anything you can think of!

Krispy

L

Lordoitagain Jul 11, 2011

As stewards of our time, talent, and treasure, we will all give account of how we used each second.

If we look at the relatively few occasions of heated debate amongst brethren in the lives of Paul, Barnabas, and Peter, and try to justify hours and days of fine-tuning theological standpoints, we could easily fall into a trap that would end in hearing the words: “and cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness …”

Every Thursday, I give a Bible study to a group of sinners who know absolutely nothing about Bible stories that I knew MUCH about at the age of 5. When we see a vast majority of souls perishing for lack of knowledge, we have to ask ourselves as good stewards are we using the seconds that are tick-tocking away wisely, or not.

It is obvious that Paul spent MUCH more time with the unlearned than in heated disagreements with brethren. The main reason that we have the epistles (for the saints) is because he was in jail so much (God’s plan and design). Otherwise, he would have been on the streets with those who had never heard, or going from house to house.
Personal stewardship is an individual matter that we will individually give account for.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: .

Thanks, Enochh for provoking us to good works.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

Not sure what you mean by your header, but I suppose we're to guess on that one.

We are in the days of the apostasy.

If you've ever truly read about Paul, he was forced to spend Most of his time on earth contending against heresies coming into every Church he was overseer of and spent most of his time in jail and being flogged and persecuted for that very reason. Even John had to contend in his epistles with those who were denying the Deity of Christ and were teaching easy-believism.

Paul warned us of 'these' days - when men shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

What do we do with those, if Paul is our example?

Any man that stands for the truth against heresies has my admiration because I know the sweat, misunderstanding, and rejection that they receive for standing for the truth - as Paul received because he cared for the souls of his Master's sheep and was no coward. Not by a long shot. If he was kicked out of one place, The LORD was with him nonetheless.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

When I think of winning souls, I must think about the end of the matter..and that is "receiving the Promise" of eternal Life. The apostle Paul makes it abundantly clear that there IS a falling away possible, AND a "drawing back into Perdition..[ Hell ] for the once saved.

Hebrews 10:
35. "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.".........................................

Salvation is being accepted into Heavens gate, and our calling is to be conformed into the image of Christ, as we mature in Love. One Plants, One waters, another must tend the garden, rooting up weeds etc. This is what Godly teaching and Preaching is about; FEEDING AND PROTECTING the Beloved.

Debate in itself may or may not edify, but often it may challenge us to consider another's light, and provoke us to more Godly faith. Another thing that debate may do is to increase our Understanding, and we may even be able to be taught by God in another's insight.

Proverbs 4:6-8

...[WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING]
6. Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

7. Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

8. Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.............................

I have led souls to Christ, and have seen them baptised with the Holy Spirit, and baptised in water, and freed from oppression...but...is that the end? No it is not. the end is their establishment in Christ that they may endure; IE.."Go! and make disciples of ALL NATIONS!"

[ I am an unprofitable servant, for I know my flesh and failure...]

I guess in all debate, there comes a "spinning of the wheels" where enough has been said, and we go on anyway...but that is but human. Everyone reading this knows what I mean.

When we begin to attack another that offends our righteous pride..let us be careful that we don't just destroy others, or reject others to be right. Then, debate becomes destructive...[ I have sinned in this too much to remember].

But, if we look at SI as a giant Bible School with lots of Teachers, and more opinions...then we can glean in Peace and still be free....without having to slay those who disagree.

Saying that, there still must be a place to compare the scripture, and understand that there are enemies of God who love to twist the truth..DIVIDERS. It is right to compare all things to the Word of God in our debates. It is the only true sail we have. Some must be exposed as such, for they may kill the sheep.....................................
ACTS 20
27. "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

Lots of young ones come here, and they have insights and revelation and faith also, and many have unanswered questions about faith...and the debate can be helpful for all to see Jesus's words with more clarity.

L

Lordoitagain Jul 11, 2011

The tick tocking is referring to the seconds passing by. I am from a generation when clocks made a tick tock sound with each second passing by. We all have a limited number of seconds left for which we will give account as to how we spent them.

If there are 3 billion souls on the planet who have NEVER heard ANYTHING about Jesus, and 2.5 billion more who have heard VERY LITTLE about Jesus, and about 500,000 who have heard what we consider a perverted version of the gospel, yet we spend 95% of our time trying to correct the 500,000 that we consider incorrect … we might not be acting wisely with the few seconds of life that we have left on earth.

If we spend the majority of our time working with the vast majority who know little or nothing about Jesus, we can win them and disciple them in what we consider “correct theology” and there will be more Christians on the planet who believe what we consider correct theology.

If we are truly being led by the Holy Ghost to spend the majority of our time trying to correct the mis-informed and much less of our time informing the un-informed, then we will hear Him say “well done thou good and faithful servant …” because we were obedient ... if in reality God is leading us to do that.

Stewardship is an individual matter, but it is good to be admonished to be sure taht we are spending our time more wisely.

Often, deceivers gain much more territory because they spend more time with the totally uninformed ... and end up producing disciples of their deception. We who walk in the light could reach the same uninformed souls before they do ... and disciple them correctly.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

We are to be willing to give our lives for the salvation of souls and once they are won to Christ - they need to be discipled. Part of that is protecting them from heresies that would hinder them in any way.
Paul did both. Time 'is' of the essence - now more than ever before in human history. I agree with that.
As Paul told Timothy, to contend for the faith and in Eph 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Sometimes Paul had to use strong language as well, 'because' he Loved people.

Amen to any man that "disciples them correctly", Brother.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

We are to be willing to give our lives for the salvation of souls and once they are won to Christ - they need to be discipled. Part of that is protecting them from heresies that would hinder them in any way. Paul did both. Time 'is' of the essence - now more than ever before in human history. I agree with that.

Excellent. I think that BrotherTom, JIG, and Savannah all had great and Biblical input into this thread, and I commend you for your stand.

S

savannah Jul 11, 2011

Quote: "The apostle Paul makes it abundantly clear that there IS a falling away possible, AND a "drawing back into Perdition..[ Hell ] for the once saved."

Not so. The apostle Paul knew the Truth as it is in Jesus. As he wrote he meant no such thing as the conclusion in the above post.

Christ died and purchased His own and keeps them. They shall never perish. He gives them eternal life. They are those "receiving the Promise" of eternal Life", to quote the same poster.

He purchased a people,"...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." He has saved them as He promised,"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21

The apostle is in agreement with His LORD and ours and makes it abundantly clear when he says, " But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Concerning us His people He says,

Psalm 121:7,8 The LORD will preserve thee from all evil: he will preserve thy soul.The LORD will preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for ever.

Psa_121:7

“The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil,” or keep thee from all evil. It is a great pity that our admirable translation did not keep to the word keep all through the Psalm, for all along it is one. God not only keeps his own in all evil times but from all evil influences and operations, yea, from evils themselves. This is a far-reaching word of covering: it includes everything and excludes nothing: the wings of Jehovah amply guard his own from evils great and small, temporary and eternal. There is a most delightful double personality in this verse, Jehovah keeps the believer, not by agent, but by himself; and the person protected is definitely pointed out by the word thee, - it is not our estate or name which is shielded, but the proper personal man. To make this even more intensely real and personal another sentence is added, “The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul,” - or Jehovah will keep thy soul. Soul-keeping is the soul of keeping. If the soul be kept all is kept. The preservation of the greater includes that of the less so far as it is essential to the main design: the kernel shall be preserved, and in order thereto the shell shall be preserved also. God is the sole keeper of the soul. Our soul is kept from the dominion of sin, the infection of error, the crush of despondency, the puffing up of pride; kept from the world, the flesh and the devil; kept for holier and greater things; kept in the love of God; kept unto the eternal kingdom and glory. What can harm a soul that is kept of the Lord?

Psa_121:8

“The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.” When we go out in the morning to labour, and come home at eventide to rest, Jehovah shall keep us. When we go out in youth to begin life, and come in at the end to die, we shall experience the same keeping. Our exits and our entrances are under one protection. Three times have we the phrase, “Jehovah shall keep,” as if the sacred Trinity thus sealed the word to make it sure: ought not all our fears to be slain by such a threefold flight of arrows? What anxiety can survive this triple promise? This keeping is eternal; continuing from this time forth, even for evermore. The whole church is thus assured of everlasting security: the final perseverance of the saints is thus ensured, and the glorious immortality of believers is guaranteed. Under the aegis of such a promise we may go on pilgrimage without trembling, and venture into battle without dread. None are so safe as those whom God keeps; none so much in danger as the self-secure. To goings out and comings in belong peculiar dangers, since every change of position turns a fresh quarter to the foe, and it is for these Weak points that an especial security is provided: Jehovah will keep the door when it opens and closes, and this he will perseveringly continue to do so long as there is left a single man that trusteth in him, as long as a danger survives, and, in fact, as long as time endures. Glory be unto the Keeper of Israel, who is endeared to us under that title, since our growing sense of weakness makes us feel more deeply than ever our need of being kept. Over the reader we would breathe a benediction, couched in the verse of Keble.

“God keep thee safe from harm and sin,
Thy spirit keep; the Lord watch o'er
thy going out, thy coming in,
From this time, evermore.” C.H.S.

E

Enochh Jul 11, 2011

Jesus-is-God...WOW

quote 'you mention the belief that "christians can be demon possessed". I felt just the opposite of what you are expressing.'

I expressed no such belief...cut and pastes a quote where I said this. This is what I'm talking about. Brothers get so bent on expressing their point that ...enough said. "We're not here to get to know the Word of God but to (get to) know the God of the Word." Leonard Ravenhill "If Bible knowledge could change the world, we would've changed it long ago" Leonard Ravenhill...

sermonindex Jul 11, 2011

by Enochh on 2011/7/11 3:59:16
I get so sad when I come on here....a place where I can find some real believers and I see what goes on. Example the "War on the saints" post. Back and forth bickering. Some one started a post asking a question and so many have to prove their much understanding of the scriptures and their intimate knowledge of the Lord and his ways to "prove" another brother/sister wrong and correct them. "Why not rather be wronged"..."knowledge puffs up ...love edifies" I mean who really cares. Billions of people are going to hell and we are arguing about whether a christian can be demon possessed. Well done thou good and faithful servant you won so many debates on SI. I doubt we will hear that. And the man going to hell could care less. Brothers and sisters we show our immaturity , pride , selfcenteredness when this is our focus.
lets join together stop the debating and get the job done the Master has called us to do. Oh Lord for one more soul I plead. Time is short .....Please Please focus on the task at hand lest when the Master comes He find You sleeping or in idle debate.

The "War on the Saints" discussion/dispute was regarding "Christians being demon possessed".

E

Enochh Jul 11, 2011

thank you JIG for illustrating for all what I meant by my initial post

O

Oracio Jul 11, 2011

While I do believe there can be healthy debates that can profit both the ones debating and the ones looking from the sidelines, I also agree with Enochh that we can get caught up in too much debate and neglect reaching out to lost souls, one of the most important things we are still left on this planet for. So I thought it would be fitting here to share this link to a thread on the need for evangelism(and please understand, I am not pointing any fingers at any particular believers here, for I know I would have three pointing right back at me if I did so):
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38128&forum=35&10